Projection watch on Indiegogo

[jebcom]

Another Indiegogo flexible funding campaign: Ritot.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/4168696#home

It's supposed to project an image onto the user's hand. Maybe a viable product, but in all of the samples shown in the videos and photos, the projected images are way too perfect. That sharp angle and the imperfect surface of a hand will be very difficult to deal with. I wonder if they even have a working prototype yet. If they do, then I think they're too embarrassed of the projection to show the real thing.

[jeremy]

It looks like lots of stock photography to me. Neat idea, but I'll think about it once they are already shipping

[MacAttak]

You'd have to be nuts to give them money. They haven't even started on the hardware. From the wording of their project plan, I don't even think they plan to design/build it themselves. I think these are just some "idea guys" who hope to raise some cash and then find someone to make it. But that would mean their pricing is also total bullshit. How can they have a meaningful price without at least a POC and some semblance of BOM?




Also:

Prototypes: Our watches are based on a new projection technology that has proven itself. Our task is to bring our model the closest to the technical ideal. We will do our best to achieve this. You will be able to monitor and even control all production stages and give your suggestions to the first working prototypes.

They don't even know what the "first working prototypes" are going to be!

What sets this apart from Mu is that these guys are at least not lying about where they are with development. They aren't pitching fake CGI of the concept as proof of the final product working. So they aren't as unethical as Mu. But I still think you'd have to be crazy to give them money and expect to ever get anything of value out of it.

[nuhamind2]

The best they can do

[Legit-Design]

Model is looking at wrong hand?

[EEVblog]

What's the point of this?
Requires far too much power to project an image onto a wonky surface that's going to be horrible in many light conditions.
What is the advantage over a LCD watch that lasts 10 years on one battery?
That's a rhetorical question of course, the answer is it's just a wank.

The ring shape won't even stay on your arm in the correct rotation 

[pickle9000]

The phones and mini led projectors have been around for a few years. Not sure about how useful though, perhaps as a sales tool.

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Android-Unlocked-GSM-Smartphone-with-Built-in-Projector-4-5inch-DLP-35-Lumen-/251529899565?pt=Cell_Phones&hash=item3a9059ae2d

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Portable-Handheld-Pocket-Multimedia-LED-USB-Home-Theater-Cinema-Mobile-Projector-/181381896218?pt=US_Video_Projectors&hash=item2a3b34181a

[cloudscapes]

The numbers on the far right (minutes/seconds) are going to look like shit compared to the left, which are still going to look bad.

Projecting stuff at such a steep angle is useless. Shine a flashlight across the back of your hand like that. All your hairs, veins and irregularities cast long shadows. Every bump gets exaggerated.

[miguelvp]

They are probably going to use laser based pico projectors so focusing is not an issue.

But judging their marketing seems like it's focused towards the young and flashy. You know the type that want to attract more attention by placing neons under their car, spinners, annoying bass levels, modding their exhausts to try to sound like a sports car, etc. thinking that girls will notice them more because they are cool

So as stupid as it is, they might have a chance due to the demographics they are targeting are equally stupid.

Edit: I didn't even noticed they are already funded, not surprised at all. But I agree with the rest that these guys not even having a working prototype and their timeline I doubt they'll be able to deliver in time.

[theatrus]

Their "office address" is a virtual office front.

[Rasz]

man those stock photos make me want to buy something, or at least masturbate
and that sexy CGI? SOLD!

Nicely spotted Dave, I didnt even think about that one, but I dont use watches or bracelets, and neither do they apparently

[Psi]

There's no real reason why they couldn't make the product, it just seems highly unlikely that they're fully aware of the level of small scale integration needed to make it work.

Using a bright RGB LED and ultra tiny LCD panel would work but you'd need a pretty high resolution LCD to counteract the parallax without it looking pixelated. A special lens block would be better, to correct the image optically, but adds physical size.

A micro laser projector module would produce a great image at that range but is a little big for that size device, both in terms of physical size and available battery capacity.
It's also way out of their product price range.
And, their demo shows multiple colors, an RGB laser projector would be even bigger and more expensive.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Repurposed.

[a.malin]

I can stand to watch people get scammed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars again. So I said something, here was the response I got.

Hi Alexander,

Thank you for checking in about this campaign. At this time, the campaign, ‘Ritot - the first projection watch’, is under review to ensure that it adheres to our Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms).

We take the integrity and security of our community very seriously and we greatly appreciate your patience throughout this review process.

If we can help with anything else in the meantime, please let me know.

Regards,

Derek

Trust and Safety
Indiegogo

Who else thinks they're going to let it happen just so they can profit a little off the scam too?

[cloudscapes]

There's no real reason why they couldn't make the product, it just seems highly unlikely that they're fully aware of the level of small scale integration needed to make it work.

Using a bright RGB LED and ultra tiny LCD panel would work but you'd need a pretty high resolution LCD to counteract the parallax without it looking pixelated. A special lens block would be better, to correct the image optically, but adds physical size.

A micro laser projector module would produce a great image at that range but is a little big for that size device, both in terms of physical size and available battery capacity.
It's also way out of their product price range.
And, their demo shows multiple colors, an RGB laser projector would be even bigger and more expensive.

it's not even the resolution or brightness. it's (1) that crazy angle on the far right. and (2) the crazy irregular surface. it's just going to be an illegible mess, even with a laser.

[marcan]

Wow, they must've invented the Dark Emitting Diode! 

[Legit-Design]

Let's look at this from their point of view... Do something, lose money... do nothing, gain money. Which one is easier? Maybe they aren't in this for the long run? Make money while it's hot and then just close the shop. Who cares if in few years everyone knows everything there is just a scam.
Their biggest problem right there  "Terms of Use (http://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)" no mention about the special cases when you are producing hardware you should actually show what you have done so far.

[sunnyhighway]

A few years later some Chinese OEM will release something remarkably similar to DealExtreme for about $30.

Uhm... DX already did just that, and a lot cheaper than $30 as well.

http://www.dx.com/p/ben-10-style-kids-projector-digital-wrist-watch-4-lr41-53450

[idpromnut]

Perhaps a new term to describe these types of phenomenon: Confunding

[Bored@Work]

Perhaps a new term to describe these types of phenomenon: Confunding

I think scampaign is already an established term for this type of crowdfunding.

[Refrigerator]

My friend has a watch just like that! Just push a button and BAM, a naked babe appears on the wall.
Although it's only one frame.

[cloudscapes]

Wow, they must've invented the Dark Emitting Diode! 

jesus christ. somebody at marketing needs to get fired.

[Rasz]

jesus christ. somebody at marketing needs to get fired.

you made a lot of typos in a word "promoted"
$343,972,Flexible Funding, and over a month to go

[suicidaleggroll]

Over $1.3M...that's going to be a lot of pissed off customers when this fails spectacularly.

[timb]

According to the end of the page they show some info on the technology behind it now.

They're planning to use a TI DaVinci DSP to drive a TI DLP (Digital Light Projector Micro-Mirror Array), all off a 1400mAH  battery. With Bluetooth.

Uh huh, good luck with that guys!


Sent from my Smartphone

[tom66]

1400mAh in something that small? The DLP is the most practical, but I'd wonder what TI's MOQ is before they'll talk to you.

[Precipice]

Hmm, I've done DaVinci designs. Not on 1400mAh you don't. and doubly so not with a DLP and bright light source.

Although prototyping with easily available dev boards does make sense, DaVinci series simply doesn't. This continues to be a glorious scam.

[cloudscapes]

they could have a full desktop CPU wired up to an external power source, and the image STILL won't look clear at that steep angle, along with arm irregularities. not even remotely close.

I fully expect prototype photos to show the user bending their hand as far backwards as they can.

[Precipice]

I fully expect prototype photos to show the user bending their hand as far backwards as they can.

and the camera should always look down the arm as much as possible, to line up with the projector.

I suspect that, like MuOptics, we'll see a somewhat crappy almost-product. There's nothing terribly hard about projecting _something_ onto skin. Just relax the requirements on bracelet height, power, resolution, flatness, maybe colours, and you can project an image through a tiny LCD easily enough. It'll suck, but they'll have shown enough willing to avoid the lynch mob. A few salaries for the 2 years it'll take to get to lynching point, and the money's gone. The problem then, as with Mu, is whether there's anything left in the kitty to deliver any perks.

[Dongulus]

This closed at $1,442,642.
Apparently 8k people were very impressed by a bunch of renderings and poorly Photoshopped stock images.

Now they are starting their phase of building a first prototype. An update from earlier this month shows some work with the DLP projector on a development board. The projection angle in the last picture doesn't look like you would have to kink your hand back at a 90 deg angle (gauging by eye, not judging from the pasted picture of a hand), but it's definitely not flat. The lens they have used to accomplish this is rather bulky; I don't know how they plan on slimming that down for the small form factor.

In the most recent update from last week, they are starting to come down to a decision on the most important aspect of the project: what will the smart phone app UI look like?

[cloudscapes]

Anyone recognize the board? Looks chock-full of peripherals.

I'm skeptical of this as any sort of proof of concept. The steepness of the angle will still be much greater with the lens strapped to the wrist, resulting in extremely elongated numbers (extra blurry at the top and bottom). Anyone with an eye for 3D/geometry can see that.

[sunnyhighway]

The projection angle in the last picture doesn't look like you would have to kink your hand back at a 90 deg angle (gauging by eye, not judging from the pasted picture of a hand), but it's definitely not flat.

But you would still have to bend your wrist at a 45 deg angle from the looks of the pictures.

Another issue is text orientation.
I guess they finally figured out the original idea of text orientation (as shown in the picture below)  was impossible because of focusing issues.
Notice that the projection in their prototype has now been rotated 90 deg and contains only a single line of text where the top of the digits already are out of focus.

[cloudscapes]

I took a couple photos of my arm/hand just a minute ago with the intent of doing a few photoshop mockups of what I think it could look like, but stopped before I got further. I just can't be bothered. I see 2 ways on how they could get a semi-clear projection on the hand like that.

1. Have the projector so far up the arm that it can project an image that's not too distorted. I'm talking half-way up the forearm. Nobody wants a watch like that.

2. Have it stick up from the arm really high, like those horrible TV watches. Or higher.



My day job for the last 13 years has been 3D artist, so visualizing how things should look in "space", and how thigns visually interact with each-other is second nature to me, like breathing. It just can't work with the projector resting that close to the skin. It'll be a smear. The problem is the closer the projector is to the hand, and the closer it is to the skin, is you'll have an exaggerated angle. If you point near the base of the hand, the stretching will be lessened, but the projection will be partially obfuscated by bumps and hairs on your arm. It will be a really bumpy and hairy projection. You can point it up higher on the hand, less of your arm bumps/hairs will be in the way, but the smearing will just intensify.

If they'd market this as a bulky-ass box on a wrist with a blurry yet somewhat usable projection, then I'd have no issue with the campaign. Instead they have dark-emitting LEDs in high-def, no edge bleeding whatsoever, coming from an impossible angle. It's insulting.

I suspect that if they end up with a prototype, it'll look very much like that TV watch pic above, with the tiny projected numerals barely away from the watch.

If they had the money and the time/knowhow, they could do something REALLY fancy, like keep it small, then a mirror pops up from the top of the watch when you want to look at the time. That would keep the watch low-profile, and still provide the projection with a good "view" of the back of the hand. Though that's probably too much savoir-faire for these guys. Or indeed most people.

[Rasz]

http://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=14/11/28/1548205

sadly full atyicle is paywalled, but we get this  snipped for free:

"Ritot, a bracelet that projects the time in a large font onto the back of the wearer's hand (Indiegogo). The team drew heat when it was revealed that they initially provided fake names for their founders, and falsely implied that the company is based in the USA; they are actually in the Ukraine. More serious concerns were raised by netizens regarding the technical feasibility of the device; while the project is not yet late, it has been noted that no working prototype has been demonstrated."

[tom66]

They're making DEDs by passing too much current through the red LED. Some users will naturally complain about the burning smell but this will dissipate after a few minutes of usage.

[firewalker]

IGG should be taken down.

Alexander.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

They might win the Physics Nobel Prize 2015 for the 'anti-photon' emitting LED.

[firewalker]

They could use a high power LASER to burn the time to the skin for high contrast!!!

Alexander.

[daqq]

Over $1.3M...that's going to be a lot of pissed off customers when this fails spectacularly.

I'm gonna fetch my special popcorn, sit back and watch the fun.

[tom66]

At the same time, if you back a project on flexible funding and it achieves no where near what is necessary to proceed with the project, then it would be wise to cancel as well.

Actually, if it's a hardware project on IGG: Don't invest.

[bitwelder]

Well, the picture of the project author definitely gives confidence
that he's primarily interested in the technological achievements, right? 

[Yago]

Did they miss a trick all along?

Bend all fingers to 90deg, and project from inside of wrist onto that.
It isn't flat, but still a chance, it is shaded from light and provides some privacy from those around.

Meh though, does it come free with some plastic cat ears?

[mikerj]

Meh though, does it come free with some plastic cat ears?

 

Plastic cat ears with speakers that loudly announce the time to everyone in the vicinity whenever you check your projection watch?  You may be on to something!

[Kean]

After many months, Ritot have just posted a preliminary schematic!



I personally don't think a low end MSP430 is really ideal for driving a WVGA DLP/DMD projector, although with external flash they could have a bunch of images and fonts to work from.  But it will be very limited in terms of graphics & animation that most people would expect in a modern product.  And not sure it could handle the keystone correction that is going to be needed.  I guess they could do all image generation/correction in the smartphone, but then the watch is rather dependant on the phone being available.

One obvious problem with the schematic is that they're sharing a single Chip Select signal across 3 SPI slave devices.
Also no power control or battery charging, but that is not hard to add compared to the optics challenge they've yet to overcome.

[Kean]

One obvious problem with the schematic is that they're sharing a single Chip Select signal across 3 SPI slave devices.

Actually, upon looking closer the external flash and BLE module share a common SPI chip select - which won't work
The DLP display controller has both its clock and chip select inputs connected to the master SPI clock.  Again, this just won't work.

So they haven't even done basic validation of the schematic, let alone prototyped it or started on the firmware.
After 7+ months of funding!

[EEVblog]

So they haven't even done basic validation of the schematic, let alone prototyped it or started on the firmware.
After 7+ months of funding!

You naysayer! 

They do know the electronics is the easy part, right?

[EEVblog]

Over 5000 comments? 
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch#comments

[EEVblog]

Does anyone else think this doesn't look quite right?...

[andtfoot]

Does anyone else think this doesn't look quite right?...

Looking like it's several times the distance from where the watch would be, and almost perpendicular to the hand? 

[electr_peter]

Does anyone else think this doesn't look quite right?...

Arm was bent but image near knuckles did not moved by much at all - meaning they have simple projector in front of the wrist but not on the wrist.

[EEVblog]

Looking like it's several times the distance from where the watch would be, and almost perpendicular to the hand? 

Yup, that was my thought.
Also, I just read that the optics are still worked on and are not finished, and they mention the watch is only a body ptototype, so this can't possibly be coming from the watch. So they have likely just used some off-the-shelf projector in front of the hand, they call it the "development kit".
So yeah, they have ordered a projector kit and taken some photos and a video *slow*

[Rasz]

One obvious problem with the schematic is that they're sharing a single Chip Select signal across 3 SPI slave devices.

Actually, upon looking closer the external flash and BLE module share a common SPI chip select - which won't work
The DLP display controller has both its clock and chip select inputs connected to the master SPI clock.  Again, this just won't work.

actually clock and chip select of dlp chip are shorted
and look at all those bypass caps

[suicidaleggroll]

and look at all those bypass caps

bypass caps are for wussies


Anybody else notice that they called their positive supply "Vss" on the majority of their ICs?

[Corporate666]

What's up with the thermistor to ground on the GND pin of the PAD2005 chip?

These guys are everything that is wrong with crowdfunding.

A creator who doesn't know anything and thinks "electronics" is easy and with enough time/money - anything is possible.  And backers who are too (sorry, it's true) f-kin stupid to do even cursory research on a product before saying "TAKE MY MONEY!" and then going apeshit when their dopey instant gratification doesn't work out and they want their $$ back.

[Dongulus]

One obvious problem with the schematic is that they're sharing a single Chip Select signal across 3 SPI slave devices.

Actually, upon looking closer the external flash and BLE module share a common SPI chip select - which won't work
The DLP display controller has both its clock and chip select inputs connected to the master SPI clock.  Again, this just won't work.

So they haven't even done basic validation of the schematic, let alone prototyped it or started on the firmware.
After 7+ months of funding!

Not to mention that two of the chips being interfaced through SPI run on 1.8V while the MSP430 runs on 3.3V and no level-shifters are used in between.

[bitwelder]

Anybody else notice that they called their positive supply "Vss" on the majority of their ICs?

Sorry for the off-topic question, but does anybody know what's the origin of the typical names for supply pins, like Vss, Vcc, Vdd, etc. ?

[Corporate666]

Anybody else notice that they called their positive supply "Vss" on the majority of their ICs?

Sorry for the off-topic question, but does anybody know what's the origin of the typical names for supply pins, like Vss, Vcc, Vdd, etc. ?

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/17382/what-is-the-difference-between-vcc-vdd-vee-vss

[donotdespisethesnake]

How can a campaign that lies about its team members and location not be a scam? We are not talking about lack of transparency or a communication error here, this is deliberate fraud.

I expect Indiegogo are ignoring the obvious for legal reasons, but it will be hard to claim "plausible deniability" when the project creators are plainly dishonest.

[valley_nomad]

I believe that IGG has been set up in such way that it can facilitate these kinds of scams without legal remification

[janekm]

After many months, Ritot have just posted a preliminary schematic!



I personally don't think a low end MSP430 is really ideal for driving a WVGA DLP/DMD projector, although with external flash they could have a bunch of images and fonts to work from.  But it will be very limited in terms of graphics & animation that most people would expect in a modern product.  And not sure it could handle the keystone correction that is going to be needed.  I guess they could do all image generation/correction in the smartphone, but then the watch is rather dependant on the phone being available.

One obvious problem with the schematic is that they're sharing a single Chip Select signal across 3 SPI slave devices.
Also no power control or battery charging, but that is not hard to add compared to the optics challenge they've yet to overcome.

This is kind of interesting... I reckon DPP3435 is supposed to be DLPC3435 (there is similarity to the system design example for that). I was wondering how they'd get the data into that as it's intended to use a parallel interface... But it turns out that chip supports reading a splash screen from an external SPI flash, so I suspect they're planning to do that, which is kind of clever! It also supports 1D keystone correction so that's (sort of) taken care of.

There is quite a disparity between the hilarity of the schematic and the sensible-ness of that choice of chips, so I hazard a guess that some sales engineer at TI was convinced to talk to them after they got their million+ funding, and told them something like "well I suppose you could use the DLPC3435 with the DLPA2000, and just write the image as a splash screen to the flash before power-on sequencing", and then some poor guy tried to figure out how to turn that into a schematic

It's a bit odd that they can't spell the chip names though?

[donotdespisethesnake]

I believe that IGG has been set up in such way that it can facilitate these kinds of scams without legal remification

There is no "set up" that bypasses common law. If an organisation knowingly participates in a fraud, they are legally liable, regardless of whether they have a Terms and Conditions that says "we are not liable for fraudulent campaigns".

Whether their "set up" successfully evades investment and consumer regulations is unknown, since it has never been tested in court.

[Kean]

It also supports 1D keystone correction so that's (sort of) taken care of.

That's neat, but only helps address one of the many problems they've got.

I hazard a guess that some sales engineer at TI was convinced to talk to them after they got their million+ funding

Oh, I'm pretty sure that is what happened - I can't imagine why they'd choose an MSP430 otherwise.  Dont' get me wrong, they're great chips, and I've used them in a number of designs, but primarily for their unique features which I'm not sure are needed here.  A Cortex M seems like a much better choice.

It's a bit odd that they can't spell the chip names though?

The green boxes are sheet symbols in Altium rather than actual components, so I guess it was done by someone with real Altium experience.  The schematic seems to be awfully rushed, leading to various errors.  There could be more detail on those other sheets, or possibly not...

[bktemp]

Does the DMD controller generate the displayed image? From the datasheet it looks like it only can display a splash screen from flash, but needs a external video source for normal operation.
It seems to be missing in their schematic.

[janekm]

Does the DMD controller generate the displayed image? From the datasheet it looks like it only can display a splash screen from flash, but needs a external video source for normal operation.
It seems to be missing in their schematic.

I think they're planning to write the image to flash as a splash screen, then boot up the DMD to display it, which could be sufficient for the kind of notifications a thing like this should display... (for sure that MSP430 isn't going to animate anything). Kind of clever.

[valley_nomad]

I believe that IGG has been set up in such way that it can facilitate these kinds of scams without legal remification

There is no "set up" that bypasses common law. If an organisation knowingly participates in a fraud, they are legally liable, regardless of whether they have a Terms and Conditions that says "we are not liable for fraudulent campaigns".

Whether their "set up" successfully evades investment and consumer regulations is unknown, since it has never been tested in court.

They may not knowingly participate in a fraud. But they certainly know that, compared with other popular platforms such as KS,  the way IGG works now can be easily used for a fraud. For example, IGG allows so called flexible funding mode in which the creator can always take the money, regardless of the success of campaign. Unlike KS, IGG doesn't require a working prototype to start the campaign. IGG also allows the creators to delete any comments they don't like on the campaign's comment page...

[Kean]

In the last day a lot of quotes from this forum topic have been getting posted into the Ritot campaign comments.

I think they're planning to write the image to flash as a splash screen, then boot up the DMD to display it, which could be sufficient for the kind of notifications a thing like this should display... (for sure that MSP430 isn't going to animate anything). Kind of clever.

Some guy called Bob in the comments is trying to use this quote as an engineer praisng Ritot's design ingenuity!   

If anything, it is a clever hack that we suspect a Texas Instruments FAE (Field Applications Engineer for any IGG visitors) came up with to keep the electronics BOM cost low.
This one semi-positive comment hardly means Ritot can deliver a working product, let alone one people will be happy with.

As engineers we know with certainty that this is going to be a total flop - much like the SmartyRing, Mu Optics, and Soap "rablet" campaigns.
They have over promised and will under deliver, assuming they deliver anything at all.

[EEVblog]

Unlike KS, IGG doesn't require a working prototype to start the campaign. IGG also allows the creators to delete any comments they don't like on the campaign's comment page...

And don't they expire after a period of time too and are not displayed any more?
The comment system on IGG is nothing short of a joke, and does nothing but aid potential fraud and hinder public accountability.

[donotdespisethesnake]

Some guy called Bob in the comments is trying to use this quote as an engineer praisng Ritot's design ingenuity!   

The guy called Bob... interesting allegations that either he is a paid shill or sock puppet working for Smart Crowdfunding - some of their clients shown here http://smartcrowdfunding.us/content/about-us. Hey, guess what Ritot and the "Coolest clock" have in common?

For all I know, Smart Crowdfunding are totally legit and would never resort to fraudulent tactics such as impersonating unaffiliated backers. Their claim to good reputation as members of "Crowdfunding Professional Association" is only slightly undermined by the picture of a pile of cash directly below it.

At best they are helping campaigns succeed regardless of the merits of the project, which must introduce a risk for unsuspecting backers.

[cloudscapes]

[LordNobady]

Ritot would have you believe that thy can bend light mid-air .

Sorry, physics don't work that way. 

sorry but you can change light mid air. just heat it up and it will form a lens. I have to admit that is not practical.

[rob77]

and as someone mentioned earlier in this thread... the picture is upside-down... it's the person's left hand with the bracelet => the picture is upside down.

[cloudscapes]

sorry but you can change light mid air. just heat it up and it will form a lens. I have to admit that is not practical.

Maybe they're engineered a micro black hole in their invention, that would be another way to do it. 

[LordNobady]

sorry but you can change light mid air. just heat it up and it will form a lens. I have to admit that is not practical.

Maybe they're engineered a micro black hole in their invention, that would be another way to do it. 

MMM if you can control its power it might work. only how to create one, rumors are that the LHC can create them. but that is a little bit to big to attach to your wrist. So it needs to be miniaturized a bit. 
then again if the can make them that small and for a good price. why only make a watch out of it? I think that some field experts will pay more for a slightly larger one that has an good particle detector.
 

[rickey1990]

$199 :0, Well if thats the case, who would like to buy the key chain add on http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-Shipping-High-Quality-LED-Laser-Light-Show-Ceiling-Time-Projector-Keychain/1541545409.html ,

Inspired by future technologies we wanted to create a completely different, original timepiece.

We have also included a clip, so that you clip to the front your belt, so that the ladies always know what time it is . $1,000,000

[codeboy2k]

To wash their hands of any potential fraud, IGG would have to stay out of every transaction completely.  This would put them in the realm of a Common Carrier (US / Canada laws, probably many other countries are similar).  If they ever were named in a lawsuit, they would quickly get them selves removed as a defendant by arguing that they only facilitate the communications between two parties, the campaigner and the funder.  They allow them to "connect" in text, and communicate with each other, and they do not monitor, regulate or censor those communications.   They are going to argue they are immune, like the phone company.

A person can commit fraud over the phone, with multiple victims.  The phone company is a facilitator of that fraudulent act. Yet the phone company is always immune from prosecution for fraud.  I think IGG will always stay out of the loop. Once they intervene, if only one time, then they are open to multiple lawsuits. Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now.

(I don't condone fraud, nor the projection watch here which seems rather implausible to me)

[firewalker]

But IGG takes a part of the dirty money.

Alexander.

[valley_nomad]

... Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now...

IMHO, many of these obvious fraud champaigns on IGG would never have a chance if they were launched on KS

[suicidaleggroll]

... Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now...

IMHO, many of these obvious fraud champaigns on IGG would never have a chance if they were launched on KS

I have seen WAY too many free energy/perpetual motion projects on Kickstarter to believe that.  I've even reported all of the ones I've seen and have seen zero action on Kickstarter's part.

[bitwelder]

But IGG takes a part of the dirty money.

Alexander.

Well, same as a telecom company that is used by a criminal organization for their landline/cellular/satellite communications.

[EEVblog]

and as someone mentioned earlier in this thread... the picture is upside-down... it's the person's left hand with the bracelet => the picture is upside down.

If you actually read what they say and the way they say in their updates it's fairly obvious they are admitting that it's not the watch that's doing the projection, it's an off-the-shelf  "development kit" projector or some such. It's a mock-up. There problem is that they aren't clear enough with this, but there is law against that. If it ever comes to a fraud suit, they can just point to where they said it's development kit, it's not their fault people didn't understand that 

[donotdespisethesnake]

A person can commit fraud over the phone, with multiple victims.  The phone company is a facilitator of that fraudulent act. Yet the phone company is always immune from prosecution for fraud.  I think IGG will always stay out of the loop. Once they intervene, if only one time, then they are open to multiple lawsuits. Actually, in my opinion, and I am not a lawyer, I think kickstarter is more liable for campaigns on its site, than IGG is right now.

I think that is a possible defence, but very weak. If IGG accept any project without looking at it, they might argue common carrier, although that tends to apply to communications. Websites have no real legal definition, they are a virtual place. What laws apply depends on what transactions the website facilitates.

Are they publishers? Yes, the law has determined they are liable for libel, and copyright violations by users or contributors.

Are they shops? Yes, they are subject to consumer sales laws if selling online.

Are they banks? Yes, if they do financial transactions, they must follow financial laws and be regulated.

So I think that the precedent is set such that crowdfunders would find it very difficult to claim anything like common carrier.

[tom66]

I don't think they could argue common carrier because of the commission they take for handling the campaign.

IMHO, it's the same as eBay saying "we can't vet anything - it's not our problem you can buy guns from our online shop". Because eBay take a commission as a direct result of what they advertise for sellers, they are no longer acting as a common carrier. (Tel networks take commission in the form of a per-minute rate, and they can be held liable for premium rate phone scams if they do not vet them properly.)

[codeboy2k]

I don't think they could argue common carrier because of the commission they take for handling the campaign.

IMHO, it's the same as eBay saying "we can't vet anything - it's not our problem you can buy guns from our online shop". Because eBay take a commission as a direct result of what they advertise for sellers, they are no longer acting as a common carrier. (Tel networks take commission in the form of a per-minute rate, and they can be held liable for premium rate phone scams if they do not vet them properly.)

It would certainly have to be tested in court, anyways.  Taking a payment (i.e. commission) does not prohibit them from claiming common carrier. Indeed, it's a requirement that they do so fairly and equally amongst all persons with something to be "carried" ... i.e. goods, or telegraph messages.  The laws as written are really ancient on this, dealing only with steamboat, train, roadway, and telegraph messages and what a "common carrier" of goods or messages must do.  For example, they cannot refuse to carry so long as payment is made, cannot give preferential treatment to one group or another, etc.  Which basically means that they can take a payment, provide equal services to all campaigns being "carried" and must not get involved with the "contents" of that carriage or refuse to carry it.   I think all modern telecommunications have been lumped into the "telegraph" umbrella in common carrier statutes, but it's clear that the ancient laws are not up to task. Some jurisdictions have probably updated their laws to reflect modern telecommunications better and I'm sure there has also been some legal precedents already.  But as to IGG and KS, we won't know until it gets tested in court.

And then they could be seen as a store and be subject to commercial codes.

[Kalidor]

Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/10280792#/updates

[McBryce]

We have also included a clip, so that you clip to the front your belt, so that the ladies always know what time it is

How's she going to read the time when it's being projected onto her forehead?

I'll stick with my Commodore LED watch: http://s94.photobucket.com/user/_NRG_/media/Watches/commadore_LED_2.jpg.html (not my actual watch in this picture) Mine is still going well since 1975! And if you flip it over, you can almost read the time from the reflection on your hand*.

McBryce.

*No you can't, you just get a red blob if the room is dark enough, but that's still better than the Ritot guys have managed so far.

[janekm]

Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/10280792#/updates

It's pretty hard to read, but looks like a very plain cut&paste from a datasheet schematic for whichever TI CC2XXX radio transceiver that is (I can't quit read the part number). From the accompanying text it sounds like they are building breakout modules for the different components of the watch, before combining the modules into an integrated design, which is a safe way to to proceed if one doesn't have any time restraints (am I reading the project description correctly that they didn't provide any kind of estimate of when they would ship?  Sensible I suppose )

From their updates I get the sense that the founders haven't a clue at all about what is being done on the technical side, but they are getting some kind of help, probably from a TI sales rep...

[McBryce]

According to their Timing plan (posted on first page of this thread), they will be shipping in Feb 2015, so they have loads of ti... Oh wait, that's in the past 

McBryce.

[Kalidor]

Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/c_limit,w_620/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ritot-the-first-projection-watch/x/10280792#/updates

It's pretty hard to read, but looks like a very plain cut&paste from a datasheet schematic for whichever TI CC2XXX radio transceiver that is (I can't quit read the part number). From the accompanying text it sounds like they are building breakout modules for the different components of the watch, before combining the modules into an integrated design, which is a safe way to to proceed if one doesn't have any time restraints (am I reading the project description correctly that they didn't provide any kind of estimate of when they would ship?  Sensible I suppose )

From their updates I get the sense that the founders haven't a clue at all about what is being done on the technical side, but they are getting some kind of help, probably from a TI sales rep...

Better resolution:
https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1436881102/ns9zk4it1axqw3jjmh5c.png

[tom66]

DCDC_SW, who puts the switch node of a converter on a separate schematic? Very odd. The output capacitance choice is also unusual; 10uF on its own plus two 0.1uF is more like a decoupling layout rather than the output capacitance of a typical buck/boost converter.  The 10mH input inductor is also an unusual choice. It looks like whoever designed this has very little electronics experience.

[Marcel_X]

Wel Tom66, I think they just copied part of the reference design of the CC2640 (hardware wise identical to the CC2650). At least they took the effort to redraw the reference design, instead of just taking a snapshot of TI's document... 

If you download the reference design 1.2.6 on http://www.ti.com/product/CC2640/technicaldocuments you can see the same labels (DCDC_SW) and same components. They just did a bad job at copying the schematic. There's a cap (6p8) missing in the differential setup of the antenna. It should be in series with L4 in the Ritot schematic.

And I assume they're going to use a PCB antenna. Another series cap of 12pF is needed after L6. And C26 (0.5pF) is only needed for antenna matching. On the TI boards this component is not mounted.

Scam, scam, scam...

[Kalidor]

A new update, the PCB is finally rendered, with a USB type-B connector in the center           
full res: https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1439471066/ec8jyabe9uy8fwc4txg8.png
It's about 10x10cm, the watch dimensions have to be increased a little bit.

At least IGG ended the 'InDemand' aka forever funding some days ago.

[McBryce]

Hmmm, looks like I'm going to need a bigger arm (and I don't mean processor). Prizes for the most novel placement of a USB connector though!

McBryce.

[janekm]

A new update, the PCB is finally rendered, with a USB type-B connector in the center           
full res: https://res.cloudinary.com/indiegogo-media-prod-cld/image/upload/v1439471066/ec8jyabe9uy8fwc4txg8.png
It's about 10x10cm, the watch dimensions have to be increased a little bit.

At least IGG ended the 'InDemand' aka forever funding some days ago.

Well, the USB connector should still work fine with a thin enough USB cable... But there's a lot else worrying about that layout. The radio balun / matching network are laid out in the most awful way, they'll be lucky to get much of any signal through that, the "microstrip" going to the antenna connector is most assuredly not 50Ohm impedance either...
Decoupling capacitors are all over the place and don't seem to have low impedance paths to ground / supply. Crystal layouts look pretty terrible too but might just still work...

But that's a beautiful render of the USB connector at least

[mikerj]

Hmmm, looks like I'm going to need a bigger arm (and I don't mean processor). Prizes for the most novel placement of a USB connector though!

McBryce.

The USB connector placement is pure genius 

I'm going to suggest they change the design to project onto the wrist directly under the bracelet.  That immediately removes any issues with depth of field and keystone correction.  Alternatively they could provide a small projection screen to mount on the back of the users hand.

[tom66]

Christ, they got $1.7mn for *that* shit? What the hell?

[codeboy2k]

These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

Cool scam, bro.

[EEVblog]

These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

You have to wonder if they are paying themselves a professional level salary from it, or they are living a meagre living trying to bring it to market.
Every campaign should have a "cash left" figure updated daily or weekly.

[EEVblog]

I have not been following this one. But it's almost a year later and they still don't have their first prototype PCB? or even the real projection system? (still using an off-the-shelf demo module)
I think this one is *plonk*

[Kalidor]

These guys are just trying to show the backers that they are doing something, and keeping themselves employed for a  few years.  They will eventually run out of funding, but will have given themselves $100,000 salaries for 2 to 3  years. 

You have to wonder if they are paying themselves a professional level salary from it, or they are living a meagre living trying to bring it to market.
Every campaign should have a "cash left" figure updated daily or weekly.

The guys are from the Ukraine and their bank account is in Russia. They lied about their names, location and education, no engineers at all just designers, now they say a company from Asia are developing it.
Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in the world, average salary is about $3500 per year, Australia is #4 about $63000 (depends on the source). It's like you get $30M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

[JimRemington]

The RITOT project is closed, with no easily discover-able information.
Think anyone will get their money back?

[codeboy2k]

The guys are from the Ukraine and their bank account is in Russia. They lied about their names, location and education, no engineers at all just designers, now they say a company from Asia are developing it.
Ukraine is one of the poorest countries in the world, average salary is about $3500 per year, Australia is #4 about $63000 (depends on the source). It's like you get $30M.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

So the 3 of them will be living well for the next 10 years or more if they stretch out their "gift" of the people.

[andyturk]

Additional schematics, would be nice if someone can verify it.

In one of their updates, they wrote,

The algorithm for delivering desired image to display controller is being developed and we're negotiating with Texas Instruments to have possibility for creating own modification of TI's DLP3435 firmware which will implement picture vizualization according to our algorithm with the best efficiency in case of Ritot watch functionality. In addition methods for image compression are under consideration, applying one of which realize efficient memory usage for storing image patterns and data which received from the mobile device.

I work with TI's DLP343x regularly... on a wearable device even. To do anything at all, their board needs a source for 24-bit parallel video, the DLPC343x, another chip called the DLPA200x that controls an RGB LED and the "mirrors" (DMD chip). Plus, you need optics to direct light from the RGB LED to the mirrors and then out to the projection surface (i.e., the hand in this case). Power consumption for all that silicon will be huge compared the battery they can stuff into the bracelet. BOM cost? ... pointless to even talk about it.

It's complete horseshit.

[Kalidor]

...2 years later, new update, still no refunding. It is now a mini projector on a wristwatch band and it's working if you hold your hand at 50deg plus you can see the image in a dark room.

[Ice-Tea]

I'm guessing the connector runs to a car battery?

[Martini]

 

Gosh, that looks different...

[Khendrask]

Here is another one, but at least this one isn't getting any bites.  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cicret-bracelet--7/x/13639189#/

[Ice-Tea]

They will work on the miniturized components in June. Beta testing in July. Production: Fall. Delivery: end 2016.

Even if this was run of the mill technology: if they can do all that in half a year, I want them on my team. Or rather: I want 1% of what Apple would give them to pull something like that off.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

How do those charlatans even sleep at night.   

[Corporate666]

How do those charlatans even sleep at night.   

Atop a huge pile of cash.

$1.6 million is a lot of money.  In Ukraine (where, IIRC, these scammers are from), it is a GIANT HUGE sum of money.  About 10-20 times what it is in the USA.

These guys never need to work again.  They just occasionally pretend to be doing something to keep the InDemand morons money rolling in and they have created a great job for themselves. 

[Corporate666]

Here is another one, but at least this one isn't getting any bites.  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cicret-bracelet--7/x/13639189#/

The scammers are not stealing scams from other scammers.

This combines the wristwatch projector scam with the dark light projector scam.

Bold.

[ruffy91]

Here is another one, but at least this one isn't getting any bites.  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cicret-bracelet--7/x/13639189#/

The scammers are not stealing scams from other scammers.

This combines the wristwatch projector scam with the dark light projector scam.

Bold.

They are genius. They are not giving you the bracelet but 250$ off the bracelet. So you will get you perk instantly. No more moaning from your customers, they already got what they paid for *ahaha*

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Well they are not making much money. In the last 24 hours they went from 1 backer to 1 backer.

[McBryce]

Well they are not making much money. In the last 24 hours they went from 1 backer to 1 backer.

And that's his mom.

McBryce.

[edy]

Well they are not making much money. In the last 24 hours they went from 1 backer to 1 backer.

And that's his mom.

McBryce.

He's even conning his mom.... that's a new low. 

You have to admit, the CGI on that video is pretty good. Look how accurate the Fruit Ninja swipes are. Forget the projection bracelet, just sell people a book on how you did the video CGI effects! 

[McBryce]

No, she's just hoping his campaign will succeed so that he finally moves out of the basement and gets his own place!

McBryce.

[Kalidor]

Here is another one, but at least this one isn't getting any bites.  https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/cicret-bracelet--7/x/13639189#/

The Cicret is from 2014, https://youtu.be/9J7GpVQCfms
I would not be wondered if someone has stolen this design concept, also the Triton concept could be stolen.

[edy]

I would not be wondered if someone has stolen this design concept, also the Triton concept could be stolen.

I predict some human hoverboard campaigns in the next while. Seems like it's getting traction in the media and we have seen a few actual working prototypes. It won't be long until someone promises to sell you one and I'm sure there are people lining up to have their own. One thing for sure... if they ever start selling these to the public, be prepared to see it added to the life insurance exclusion list. 

[Kean]

And another 11 months on, Ritot have progressed from green only projection, to pretty awful RGB
https://youtu.be/mt1Rw8FYr3k

[earl colby pottinger]

I bought a Pixel off kickstarter see: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rabidprototypes/pixel-the-arduino-compatible-smart-display and now have ordered a pixel-2 see: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/rabidprototypes/pixel-20-the-arduino-compatible-smart-display and I don't see anything here that the pixels would not make a better display not to mention with the ARM processor and SD storage it should be possible to do far more for less money.

[ebastler]

[...] I don't see anything here that the pixels would not make a better display not to mention with the ARM processor and SD storage [...]

Ah, now I see the misunderstanding that must also have led to the whole misguided design of the Cicret bracelet:
That "ARM processor" actually does not help in projecting anything onto your upper limbs... 

[PlainName]

Soemthing very like this has just appeared on BBC News24 Asian business:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-43221100/haier-smartwatch-has-a-built-in-projector-at-mwc-2018

Seems to be a real thing and works very close to spec, but it ain't going to fit under your shirt sleeve.

[MrWizerd]

   Oh brother...     I want to get all the people who back these things and just talk to them for a while,  JUST to confirm I don't want to live on this planet anymore.  Leave the nutjob convention and sign up for a one way trip to Mars on the SpaceX BFG

[beenosam]

I'm almost convinced there's like a circle of people who take old ideas that are won't work and when they fail, they tell the next person to try to rake in more money with their same idea but slightly different product.

[Cyberdragon]

I'm almost convinced there's like a circle of people who take old ideas that are won't work and when they fail, they tell the next person to try to rake in more money with their same idea but slightly different product.

Free energy nuts, audiophools, exc...