Author Topic: solar roadways  (Read 35994 times)

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Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2014, 02:43:45 pm »
ThunderfOOt has got a debunking video coming up on this soon. Should be funny.


Wasn't as funny as I though it would be. I think little too smart for stupid people, maybe that was the point. Be sure to like and comment everyone!
 

Offline Bored@Work

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2014, 04:21:09 pm »
No wonder they did it on IndieGoGo,

Kickstarter is as bad. No one responsible for anything, except the backers to pony up the money. The whole idea of crowdfunding is fundamentally flawed. It is not surprising criminals are attracted to places where stupid people voluntarily give up their money in exchange for nothing more than a dog and pony show.
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Online dunkemhigh

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2014, 10:46:31 pm »
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"The total cost to redo America’s roadways with Solar Roadways would be $56 trillion — or about four times the country’s national debt."

Where does it say you have to do every inch of every road? Surely even dimbos will pick and choose the most cost effective stretches, i.e. the bits that are most likely to provide power. Do them as the road wears out - which is when you have to spend money on them anyway - and it doesn't cost as much as you think it does.

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ThunderfOOt has got a debunking video

Pardon me for being distinctly under-impressed. Someone should do a debunking video of that one. For instance, he rabbits on about having HV lines along every road to scoop up this solar power, completely ignoring the way power is sent the other way (which he even shows). No, you won't have 444kV lines running next to every road; you would  have LV stuff feeding into up-converters placed periodically, which eventually feed into the backbone. That is, the reverse of how power gets to your house from the power station.

But... hey, we already have that power stuff getting to the house, so we don't need to replicate everything for power going the other way. Indeed, if it's fed in locally in can be used locally, no?

That's just one simple example of how this 'debunking' video is so full of the exact same thing it's allegedly debunking that it's just not funny, not relevant, etc. If you're taken in and think it a good wheeze, you are just being gullible and wilfully uncritical. The same, in fact, as those investors you laugh at for fronting over 1.5m spondilucks.

The solar road is a rubbish idea right enough (no, it is a cool idea, but completely impractical back in reality). But when you can spot holes in debunking videos they have the opposite effect to what's desired, and the road starts to look good in comparison.
 

Offline fcb

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2014, 11:19:00 pm »
Wouldn't it be (alot) cheaper to lay piping in the black-top and use a heat-pump to extract energy, it might cool it a bit, could work in reverse to de-ice the road, lower maintenance than PV, more compatible with existing road-laying equipment etc...
 

Offline corrado33

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2014, 12:09:26 am »
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"The total cost to redo America’s roadways with Solar Roadways would be $56 trillion — or about four times the country’s national debt."

Where does it say you have to do every inch of every road? Surely even dimbos will pick and choose the most cost effective stretches, i.e. the bits that are most likely to provide power. Do them as the road wears out - which is when you have to spend money on them anyway - and it doesn't cost as much as you think it does.

etc. etc.

While that would make sense, that's not what the project planners were saying, so in that right, he DID debunk what they were saying. And, making the obvious assumption that the most effective roads would not be in the north (where they get snow), then why would the project creators be talking about heated roadways?

Yes, there were lots of holes in his video as well. Like making the assumption that they wouldn't get massive bulk discounts on the glass. But most of the other issues he brought up were true. Traction, wear, paneled roads, LED visibility, dirt, efficiency of solar panels, power to melt snow etc. Have you ever driven on a brick road? I have, they become non-flat extremely quickly and they almost always have massive valleys in them where the tires usually sit (not to mention they're loud as hell.) Ever heard of noise pollution?

As for the power up conversion, please, explain your reasoning. He made it pretty clear.

Underground power wiring is expensive.
Without up conversion, huge power losses.
Lots more hardware needed. (With your plan, how many up converters would be needed?)
The most efficient place to put these panels would NOT be in neighborhoods or cities (where people live, where the power infrastructure is already there.) It'd be on the wide open highways that get sun ALL day and don't have shadows on them.

How far can you take the power without the large HV lines without losing too much of it? If you don't want to use the HV lines, then that would limit these panels to within X number of miles from a major down-converter/people's homes. Again, debunking what the project creators said.

Any one of the things he mentioned is good enough to trash this project. Just because he didn't spend exorbitant amounts of time debunking EVERY ONE down to the last word doesn't mean they aren't true. This project is a joke, and the fact that people are funding it steers me to believe we have a lot of stupid/gullible people on the internet.
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #55 on: June 02, 2014, 01:09:58 am »
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But most of the other issues he brought up were true.

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter about the true bits because he's lost his credibility from the obviously flaky bits.
 

Offline nitro2k01

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #56 on: June 02, 2014, 02:32:05 am »
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But most of the other issues he brought up were true.

The point I was trying to make was that it doesn't matter about the true bits because he's lost his credibility from the obviously flaky bits.
The problem with that point is that it's invalid. If you can discern that something is true using your own logical capability and publicly available knowledge, credibility is a moot point. Credibility only ever enters the picture if there's a claim that you yourself cannot confirm, so you need to take someone else's word for it.
Whoa! How the hell did Dave know that Bob is my uncle? Amazing!
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #57 on: June 02, 2014, 04:58:15 am »
Wouldn't it be (alot) cheaper to lay piping in the black-top and use a heat-pump to extract energy, it might cool it a bit, could work in reverse to de-ice the road, lower maintenance than PV, more compatible with existing road-laying equipment etc...

Or N-P junctions under the tarmac to create a Pielter-Seebeck effect, but I'm afraid that both the tubes and the peltier junctions will deteriorate overtime.

Shorting the NP junctions on the base or cracking the top creating an open circuit, you will have to be able to bypass cells, but if you want semiconductor roads why not just lay it on the road directly?.
Same with piping, if they crack you will have to be able to bypass them since it will be expensive to tear it down to fix it.

You will have to find the right climate for these things, for example here in Chicago with the cold winters it just eats up the roads. (specially this past one where they call Chi-Town "Chiberia")

There are other things that are lurking (thermoelectric paint for example) but nothing commercially available just yet and it would be way under photovoltaic in performance but even if it's only 10%, due to the surface increase and ease of use, it would not matter.

Geothermal will make more sense with your pipe idea keeping the roads at the same temperature as 10 feet under or more but they will have to be filled with some gas or liquid that will do the exchange by convection. But no matter what, it's going to be expensive for your average road and expensive to maintain. Geothermal aiding cooling/heating a home is not new either, like living in a cave, cool in summer and warm in winter. There are way better options to save energy that to think about producing more and transporting it.

But to fix the main problem tasked (a road that will pay by itself) we need to make better roads instead of the cheap stuff we are doing now.

Concrete roads will be a good step towards that, more expensive but not as much as laying glass hexagons and it will last longer and easier to repair.

Link (even if it's biased by concrete manufacturer's views)
http://www.rediscoverconcrete.ca/news/an-unprecedented-campaign-a-concrete

 

Offline SeanB

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #58 on: June 02, 2014, 05:13:21 am »
Well, concrete roads laid here in the 1980's are being refurbished mainly by patching small portions that degraded, mostly due to vehicle fires. Other maintenance is redoing joints which have sprung. Tar would have been relaid at least twice in the interim, though the latest method is to mill off a top layer ( up to 400mm in places) and reblend with new tar, rubber crumb ( from scrap tyres granulated in a cryogenic mill) and a little new gravel then relay to the original thickness. Faster and cheaper than concrete, and you can dig up sections for services. The concrete has no cabling running under unless in ducting, or only in large diameter concrete drains that are big enough to work in.

Better would be to make the solar panels in an array held at the side of the road reserve on non breakaway poles that have a support grid for the solar panels. That way you use the road reserve area, and have little to no impediment on load capacity, along with easy access for maintenance and easy cabling. No extra land required, and a lot cheaper to make cells that only have to handle a snow load and survive sun, plus a lot easier to cool, and a ready way to hang LED lighting units for the road, and easy to hold active signage for the road as well.
 

Offline abaxas

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #59 on: June 02, 2014, 05:16:57 am »
Irrespective of this being a terrible idea..

They would make for a cool patio.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #60 on: June 02, 2014, 05:40:09 am »
Well, concrete roads laid here in the 1980's are being refurbished mainly by patching small portions that degraded, mostly due to vehicle fires. Other maintenance is redoing joints which have sprung.

So for 6% more cost than asphalt they lasted 30 years so far. Plus as they claim vehicle efficiency increase on concrete, they seem to have paid by themselves long ago.
 

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #61 on: June 02, 2014, 09:01:31 am »
Irrespective of this being a terrible idea..

They would make for a cool patio.
Exactly. Roadways - prolly not, but I can definitely see how it can be very successful for pedestrian areas in cities, all sort of fancy driveways in front of hotel lobbies etc. I think it is a definite sell if it will come out at right price and easy to install. Perhaps some bridges can use it as pavement especially those with line direction changes etc. I would use it as pavement on top decks of ferries. When I was living in Montreal I noticed that new buildings have installed heated driveways for new buildings. I bet those are not cheap to install and operate already.




 

Offline junkie_business

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #62 on: June 05, 2014, 07:22:23 am »
When I was living in Montreal I noticed that new buildings have installed heated driveways for new buildings. I bet those are not cheap to install and operate already.

This guy on YouTube says his driveway melter costs about the same as heating three or four houses. But hey, there's only 2.65 million miles of paved road in the United States. I'm sure it gets cheaper the more you have, like ordering components - right?    :palm:

 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #63 on: June 05, 2014, 08:36:51 am »
Maybe solar roadways is going to invent some fancy new carbon nanotubes ultradurable surface that is going to be really cheap and will automatically repels any water, show or ice on the surface. It includes the solar absorbing surface on it's own. So it's going to be basically superior asphalt and is going to generate electricity from the sun and is going to keep itself clean. Who wouldn't want that? Or maybe the could include some parts of it on the asphalt mix depending how much they want the effect. Less parts of carbonmagic nanotubes and you get less energy, more for maximum energy production.
 

Offline AndyC_772

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2014, 04:17:13 pm »
If we're going to have an active road with a massive energy distribution network built in, and which (apparently) isn't subject to any form of quantitative analysis, I want a maglev car to go with it.

Floating, frictionless electric car powered by the sun? Yes please!
 

Offline junkie_business

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #65 on: June 06, 2014, 07:01:39 am »
If we're going to have an active road with a massive energy distribution network built in, and which (apparently) isn't subject to any form of quantitative analysis, I want a maglev car to go with it.

Floating, frictionless electric car powered by the sun? Yes please!

Jetpacks, man.

Jetpacks.
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #66 on: June 06, 2014, 07:41:43 am »
If we're going to have an active road with a massive energy distribution network built in, and which (apparently) isn't subject to any form of quantitative analysis, I want a maglev car to go with it.
Floating, frictionless electric car powered by the sun? Yes please!

"Where we are going we don't need roads."   

What happened to flying cars? I remember when there was some clip rolling on the TV "In the year 2000 we will have flying cars everywhere". Makes sense to have flying cars since roads are now producing electricity and are covered with fragile glass. Car would create shadows on the roads and would make the surface dirty and break it. So makes sense to have flying cars since solar roads create so much problems which need to be solved.
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #67 on: June 13, 2014, 06:44:13 pm »



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Apparently, they think their solar freakin road panels can be dropping into Afghanistan, because they will have retractable parachutes, satellite dishes, spy cameras, infrared arrays, solar panels, LEDs, roadways. Lets just hope someone doesnt give them, legs guns, AI and a intense desire to kill genetically inferior non-solar based lifeforms!

Military applications of solar roadways..... so stupid its funny!
http://solarroadways.com/military.shtml

Hmm NASA could drop these to mars... so when humans go there we would already have roads and power... also mars rovers would have zero chance of getting stuck because they could drive on roads.  :-+
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #68 on: June 13, 2014, 06:55:18 pm »

Edit: video quote removed

Quote
Apparently, they think their solar freakin road panels can be dropping into Afghanistan, because they will have retractable parachutes, satellite dishes, spy cameras, infrared arrays, solar panels, LEDs, roadways. Lets just hope someone doesnt give them, legs guns, AI and a intense desire to kill genetically inferior non-solar based lifeforms!

Military applications of solar roadways..... so stupid its funny!
...

Hmm NASA could drop these to mars... so when humans go there we would already have roads and power... also mars rovers would have zero chance of getting stuck because they could drive on roads.  :-+

I love the image of the SR-71 in the military application page, retired in 1998!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:12:16 pm by miguelvp »
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #69 on: June 13, 2014, 07:06:51 pm »
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http://solarroadways.com/military.shtml
I love the image of the SR-71 in the military application page, retired in 1998!

What would be even better is SR-71 covered with, you guessed it, SOLAR ROADWAYS!  And since we have already thrown physics and all reason out of the window, we can fix the SR-71 Blackbirds biggest problems like cost and fuel use and by running it from pure electricity generated by sun. If they needed more power they could just fly it closer to sun. After the flight it could land on airport with solar roadways instead of tarmac, airports are awesome place to put those panels since they are generally kept clean and clear of anything that might cause problems to airplanes.
 
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 07:08:49 pm by Legit-Design »
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #70 on: June 13, 2014, 07:10:15 pm »
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http://solarroadways.com/military.shtml
I love the image of the SR-71 in the military application page, retired in 1998!

What would be even better is SR-71 covered with, you guessed it, SOLAR ROADWAYS!  And since we have already thrown physics and all reason out of the window, we can fix the SR-71 Blackbirds biggest problems like cost and fuel use and by running it from pure electricity generated by sun. If they needed more power they could just fly it closer to sun.

I remember hearing that the SR-71 will leak fuel on take off and when in high altitudes it will seal the fuel tanks due to expansion of the metal or something like that. Solar freaking roadways will so much help not waste that fuel!
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #71 on: June 13, 2014, 09:48:50 pm »
http://solarroadways.com/clearingthefreakinair.shtml

 :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:

This is so stupid why bother trying to answer their arguments.

I DID IT ANYWAYS  :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
(I was bored)

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False Claim: We picked a really stupid place to put solar panels
You did pick a stupid place, just because some problems can be avoided by creating more problems and steering away from original idea, doesn't make it viable. The cost is going to be astronomical.
You are clearly missing the point, please stop trying to avoid the subject.
Best place for solar panels is to put them somewhere where they get the most sun. Usually solar panels are located on the roof of a house and are not covered by glass or dirt or laid flat. Solar panels pay themselves back faster if they are given best chance of success. Best place for solar panels is not on dirty roads or under cars during the time they would generate the most power. How do you debunk that argument? Like many others have already pointed out, there are still lots of better places to put solar panels.

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False Claim: Solar Roadways is going to cost $60 trillion dollars
I agree, it's probably going to cost more.
You say you have no idea how much it's going to cost. Well it's going to cost too much and same solar cells are put to better use almost anywhere else. You could at least do some rough calculations how much those same solar cells would produce power when placed in a optimal way. Just having good idea and not doing the work required is hardly worth 2M$ you are getting.

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Years ago, when we were working on our very first prototype, we estimated that if we could make our 12' x 12' panels for under $10K, then we could break even with asphalt. That was mere speculation and had no relevance to the cost of even our first prototype, let alone our second.

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False Claim: Asphalt roads are cheap and maintainable
How much your roads are going to cost and replace when those tempered glass panels will shatter? Asphalt roads are not cheap but cost of your solar roadways is ASTRONOMICAL.
Yes roads are expensive to maintain, but you still don't have any idea how many times more your solar roadways are going to cost maintain. I know the answer it's going to be several times more. PROVE ME WRONG SHOW US YOUR CALCULATIONS. The cost of those solar roadways is going to be something astronomical.

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False Claim: we can't afford to heat roads
The claim was about the sheer power needed to heat the roads to keep them warm. Instead you are missing the point, good job. Show us your calculations? When you start your calculations you will see who was right. Oh, you are not going to do any calculations until you get the money? That is an EXCELLENT choice.

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False Claim: Glass is softer than asphalt

The primary use (70%) of asphalt/bitumen is in road construction, where it is used as the glue or binder mixed with aggregate particles to create asphalt concrete. Its other main uses are for bituminous waterproofing products, including production of roofing felt and for sealing flat roofs.[6]

Asphalt is used as a binder of glue for the "aggregate particles". You saw those particles which thunderf00t used to scratch that really hard tempered glass. Those are the same particles that are used on roads. Asphalt is used to glue those together to form surface for car tires. Maybe you should make stones and sand and everything illegal so no one will be able to scratch that tempered glass? How are you really going to solve this problem? Invent that magical tempered glass which doesn't yet exist, which doesn't scratch? That same glass is breakable. Please see thunderf00t's first video about the pogo stick that is able to jump to the moon. Why don't you make that happen instead?

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False Claim: The shadow a single bird can take out an entire solar array - let alone a car!
Microinverters allow solar panels to act independently of one another.
How much is that going to increase the cost of those roadways tiles? Just go ahead do some basic calculations. I just did basic approximation of this it's going to cost ALOT. It's going to double the price of each tile. Prove me wrong. Do some basic research into those microinveters? I can tell you now adding more cost to you tiles is not going to make them cheaper.

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False Claim: You can't see LEDs in direct sunlight
Good thing you solved this by using MOAR POWAAAH (more power). Ok, you can solve this by using more power, but do some basic calculations first, you can't with current technology increase brightness without using more power.
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Most traffic signals today are made with LEDs.
Can you see the shadow on that picture you chose? Those leds are shaded for a reason. How are your solar roadways going to work if you have to put your leds in them to shade so people can see them?
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And what about all of those digital (LED) billboards we see all over town?
How long has Times Square been lit up with LEDs?
Those billboards use KILOWATTS of electricity, I think some of them were watercooled to take the heat away from them. THEY USE POWER ALOT OF POWER.
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That is very easily corrected by substituting with higher intensity LEDs during future prototyping/production.
POWEEEER, UNLIMITED POWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH


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False Claim: We're attempting to use recycled colored glass to make new clear glass
Still it looks like you are letting people think that?

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We wonder about people who reflexively dismiss our concept without trying to understand it, or go on public forums to attack us.
Truth hurts. Taking money from people with false pretenses and promises is just wrong. Even if they are stupid people. I understand your concept, it's cool as a concept. But this is still going to need technology breakthroughs to make it feasible. Best thing would be some material that has exact same properties as asphalt roads have and are going to be comparable in price. Your prices are going to be astronomical and usage of current solar cell technology makes it unpractical. You are taking peoples money by misleading them and letting them think something that is not going to happen. It's not going to happen anytime soon unless that magical new material is first discovered and then put to use.

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Please bring to our attention any other uninformed arguments that you see being used repeatedly and we'll debunk them here and on our FAQ page
Please debunk my arguments.

There are just so many things against this. Where are the several inventions needed to make this happen?

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2014, 10:10:07 pm »
I was contemplating doing a video on this, but there is just so much BS in all this it's hard to know where to start.  :palm:
 

Online dunkemhigh

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #73 on: June 14, 2014, 12:14:26 am »
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Please debunk my arguments.

I'm bored, so...

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there are still lots of better places to put solar panels.

Indeed. But the name of the game is not to generate solar power per se. It is to have better roads. In that context, it doesn't matter that a better place for generation might be up in the air, or that cars will shadow it, or any of the other stuff. Think of is as cheaper asphalt.

Sure, it is currently more expensive asphalt (possibly - not done the sums, but roads ain't cheap). But the idea is that you will get some payback through solar power, which will just knock a few cents off the total bill (which, hopefully, would be cheaper than current roads). That's all. They're not looking for the very best efficiency ever obtained from solar panels.

Additionally, their road (of which the PV stuff is just a part, not the whole of it) incorporates ducts for power and comms and run-off, etc. All stuff that current roads have to be dug up for if you want better broadband or whatever. Build a new house in the middle of nowhere and the cost of hooking it up to services should be cheaper because they won't have to dig out the countryside to get the cables and pipes to it.

Ah, sod it. Lost the will to live already :)
 

Offline Legit-Design

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Re: solar roadways
« Reply #74 on: June 14, 2014, 12:32:40 am »
I was contemplating doing a video on this, but there is just so much BS in all this it's hard to know where to start.  :palm:
What about doing it the same way Solar power hope episode, or the Airnergy episode. Why people think solar/free energy is the best thing ever. Doing worst case and best case calculations, and return of investment calculations and how this design is flawed. Maybe could take part in the research, like thunderf00t did. Do some back of the envelope calculations about the microinverters they are going to use for their solar panels. So when a leaf lands on their solar brick what would be a cost effective way to configure the cells to always provide maximum output.
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Thanks to our funding from Indiegogo, we are now going to hire a team of engineers this summer, who will help us make tweaks to the design, streamline production and get costs down.
What would the first problem those engineers will tackle? How much those huge pcb panels are going to cost. How much could they possibly get the cost down? They are planning to do wireless communications on each panels so they can communicate when roads are otherwise destroyed. Also how hot might the panels get during summer, probably same temperature as normal black road surface. And how it affects solar panel production. Also those LEDs that will be visible during the brightest sun worst case scenario. How many lumens are required and how much heat they will put out. The glass traps heat and solar panels and high power leds will heat up and just keep heating up.

http://solarroadways.com/faq.shtml#faqClean
and we learned that the clean panel produced less than 9-percent more power than the dirt covered panel. So even if we find that it's difficult to keep the panels clean, it may not be the issue many expect.
9-percent more power if panel is cleaned--> clearly a non issue since we have so much power. I think if I went outside now... and run my hand on road surface... palm of my hand will be black afterwards. I don't think roads stay clean for optimum solar power production.

Another thing we learned - through experimentation - was that our 1/2-inch textured glass surface reduced the amount of energy produced by solar cells by 11.12-percent.
so first we have dirty roads therefore dirty solar panels... and on top of that our opaque glass further decreases the energy production. Conversion losses? Boost converters aren't that efficient. Transmission losses and what else?

Indeed. But the name of the game is not to generate solar power per se. It is to have better roads. In that context, it doesn't matter that a better place for generation might be up in the air, or that cars will shadow it, or any of the other stuff. Think of is as cheaper asphalt.

Sure, it is currently more expensive asphalt (possibly - not done the sums, but roads ain't cheap). But the idea is that you will get some payback through solar power, which will just knock a few cents off the total bill (which, hopefully, would be cheaper than current roads). That's all. They're not looking for the very best efficiency ever obtained from solar panels.

Additionally, their road (of which the PV stuff is just a part, not the whole of it) incorporates ducts for power and comms and run-off, etc. All stuff that current roads have to be dug up for if you want better broadband or whatever. Build a new house in the middle of nowhere and the cost of hooking it up to services should be cheaper because they won't have to dig out the countryside to get the cables and pipes to it.

What about getting more payback faster with solar panels in most optimum way on the side of the road. Solar panels are expensive, it's even more expensive to put them in the roads. And becomes even more expensive when that tiny bit of power needs to be converted and put in the grid. And they are suppose to have high power leds which chew up lot of power and some places need to be on all the time. Also they are adding wireless communications and...


This whole thing is really cleverly designed. People have to lower themselves into that level. Then they can just say, "you are stupid just thinkin that". We were thinking about something AWESOME and really smart and awesome but you are so stupid for thinking we were directly saying and displaying what you think we were.  :-// 

It's like arguing with idiots... they drag you into their level and beat you with experience!  :-DD

Are these green/save the earth/free energy project suppose to be sacred or something? Because those defending them take them so religiously and you can't say dinosaurs existed because the holy bible tells us exactly how old the earth is so don't come showing any FALSE FAKE evidence? You cant say anything bad about us because we are trying save the earth (and start by taking some money).
 


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