Author Topic: The Airing  (Read 74206 times)

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Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #175 on: December 23, 2016, 01:30:16 pm »
The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Richard

The nasal passage is self moisturizing, that's why you are supposed to breath thru your nose under normal circumstances.

So in theory it doesn't matter that the Airing doesn't moisturize because it's not ramming air down the non-moisturizing throat like traditional cpap machines.

I think there are some very good ideas in the Airing design - if they can actually engineer it and make it useful is another story entirely.

Cheers Derek.
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Offline amspire

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #176 on: December 23, 2016, 01:51:24 pm »
I think you've been misinformed, the IGG definitely had multiple pre order options, I spent about $90 Aud so I had a good supply to play with.

My perk is: Silver Founder + 30 Airings
From memory, what they offered was vouchers for 30 Airlings and so if they ever did release a product and they were marketing it rather then a bigger company, then you could get 30 Airlings for free. What you actually paid the money for was to fund the development of their product. That is where 100% of your money was committed to go.

A year needs 365 Airlings so for the first year, you are getting a 8.2% discount for the first year with the voucher offer. If a medical prescription is required, then you will need to get that first before you are even allowed to use any voucher.

By offering vouchers instead of Airlings, they only have to supply the vouchers and they have met the commitment. They do not have to deliver anything. If they did miraculously succeed in making a working pump that could deliver sufficient air last a night, then they would probably try and sell the idea to one of the industry multinational giants who could afford the $1 billion+ medical research costs and then sell it under their own brand names.
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #177 on: December 23, 2016, 01:56:34 pm »
I think you've been misinformed, the IGG definitely had multiple pre order options, I spent about $90 Aud so I had a good supply to play with.

My perk is: Silver Founder + 30 Airings
From memory, what they offered was vouchers for 30 Airlings and so if they ever did release a product and they were marketing it rather then a bigger company, then you could get 30 Airlings for free. What you actually paid the money for was to fund the development of their product. That is where 100% of your money was committed to go.

A year needs 365 Airlings so for the first year, you are getting a 8.2% discount for the first year with the voucher offer. If a medical prescription is required, then you will need to get that first before you are even allowed to use any voucher.

By offering vouchers instead of Airlings, they only have to supply the vouchers and they have met the commitment. They do not have to deliver anything. If they did miraculously succeed in making a working pump that could deliver sufficient air last a night, then they would probably try and sell the idea to one of the industry multinational giants who could afford the $1 billion+ medical research costs and then sell it under their own brand names.

Ahh yes, that jogs the memory and you are correct. I do believe that the vouchers don't need to be used with a purchase of other airing units tho.

Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.
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Offline amspire

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #178 on: December 23, 2016, 02:15:43 pm »
Btw I'm sceptical just like most others here but I'm going to reserve judgment until I see the product or the company quietly vanish with my money.

Latest update from yesterday:



I read this a few times and it did not actually say they developed the sensor chip that they showed. Sensor dies like this are available off the shelf

https://en.tdk.eu/inf/57/ds/c32_gauge.pdf

and all they could actually be saying is they built a prototype sensor using one of these chips and it works! They say it uses MEMS technology like their pump that they haven't built yet, but they do not actually say they developed the MEMS technology for the sensor.

If that is all they are saying, then we could have told them that for free.

You might be just about to correct me - didn't they say
Quote
Therefore, we are using what we learn during the prototyping of the micro-blowers to fabricate our design of the micro-pressure sensor.

Yes they did, but you see to make a useful sensor with the chip I mentioned above, you have to mount it in an assembly to cause a pressure differential. The chip by itself is useless. So the fabrication they mentioned can be mounting the sensor die on a sheet with a hole in it just under the center of the chip. Once the chip is mounted so the two sides are separated, it becomes a differential pressure sensor.

I am not trying to be cynical here - I am just trying to read and make sense of the actual words that Airling have chosen to use. If they said that they had designed a silicon chip with an onboard MEMS sensor and had it manufactured at a IC foundry, I would have read a different meaning.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 02:24:24 pm by amspire »
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #179 on: December 23, 2016, 02:20:51 pm »
I completely agree with you, if it was their sensor they'd have prefixed their statement e.g. "We have prototyped". It's possible they took their requirements to a company that specialises in these types of small SMT sensors and had it built to their requirements.
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Offline Kean

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #180 on: December 23, 2016, 03:32:21 pm »
Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.

Good luck with that.  Assuming they ever have a product to ship, they've only stated that they "intend to make it available internationally" and "Subject to FDA clearance and doctor’s prescription in the US and local regulation abroad."

That doesn't mean they'll be shipping anything to you, but rather that they hope to have a various distributors who would apply for local approval - presumably through TGA in Australia.  You would still need to go through whatever local requirements are required (sleep study / prescription) to "purchase" the end product with your vouchers, and possibly go through a battle of getting those vouchers recognised.
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #181 on: December 23, 2016, 03:35:05 pm »
Regarding a prescription, iirc that only applies in the USA and shouldn't be an issue for units being shipped internationally.

Good luck with that.  Assuming they ever have a product to ship, they've only stated that they "intend to make it available internationally" and "Subject to FDA clearance and doctor’s prescription in the US and local regulation abroad."

That doesn't mean they'll be shipping anything to you, but rather that they hope to have a various distributors who would apply for local approval - presumably through TGA in Australia.  You would still need to go through whatever local requirements are required (sleep study / prescription) to "purchase" the end product with your vouchers, and possibly go through a battle of getting those vouchers recognised.

That's all possible, I'm happy to see what eventuates, I don't need it for medical reasons, just curiosity. :)
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Offline amspire

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #182 on: December 23, 2016, 03:58:59 pm »
Ahh yes, that jogs the memory and you are correct. I do believe that the vouchers don't need to be used with a purchase of other airing units tho.
The thing is they didn't offer actual Airings. They could have but they didn't.

They offered vouchers, that will allow you to get some free units if they ever manufacture a product. None of the money to cover this comes from your payment. They are saying that if they are making millions of these a year, they can afford to give away several thousand Airlings. Your "free" devices will be funded from future profits.

But lets get serious. If a fundraising campaign comes along and says "We have no experience at building micropumps, but support us and we will make a pump as good as the best pump on the market. We are not going to explain in any detail how we will do this - just trust us".

What odds would you give them - One in 10? One in a hundred? You are talking about people with no experience competing with big corporations with many years of actual manufacturing experience in micropumps.

Airling are saying "Without any experience, we will build a pump an order of magnitude better then any micropump on the market"

What odds now? One in a thousand? One in a miliion?

But that is only the start of the problem. They then have to achieve a true CPAP-replacement functionality using almost no power and it has to last the whole night. Where is the research? Every sleep disorder patient is slightly different. If you took a million sleep disorder patients, how many have conditions that the Airling could manage? One? Ten? A Hundred? No-one knows as Airling have not defined what their devices will actually do. The only thing we know for sure is that with a tiny battery, it cannot be pumping all night.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2016, 04:10:48 pm by amspire »
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #183 on: December 23, 2016, 04:02:51 pm »
All valid points my friend, the money I plunked down I can afford to lose on a curiosity punt.

I'm usually an optimist and happy to give ppl enough type to hang themselves.

I don't normally back these sort of things, but this one piqued my curiosity. :)
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Offline edy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2017, 06:05:44 am »
Latest update from Airing, dated March 2nd, 2017:

Quote
Parts and Pieces Everywhere!

Now that we have had access to the laser micromachining system we told you about in December, we have a stream of micro-blower parts and pieces flowing into our lab! Our benches are teeming with them. IT FEELS GREAT!!



Our progress has started to accelerate, just like we knew it would, and our engineers and scientist are busier than ever.  We are working on more test fixtures to handle the testing of this increase in fabricated material. Stay tuned and look for more updates soon.

Again, we want you to know how much we appreciate your support. THANKS!!
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Offline snoopy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #185 on: March 04, 2017, 11:58:45 am »
The Airling doesn't add any moisture, so that is another reason to think it must only switch on when there is a breathing event. A constant pressure apnae machine with no moisture can get very uncomfortable. 

Richard

The nasal passage is self moisturizing, that's why you are supposed to breath thru your nose under normal circumstances.

So in theory it doesn't matter that the Airing doesn't moisturize because it's not ramming air down the non-moisturizing throat like traditional cpap machines.

I think there are some very good ideas in the Airing design - if they can actually engineer it and make it useful is another story entirely.

Cheers Derek.

Hate to rain on your parade but this thing was doomed from the start and you are just paying for these dudes indulgence in a fantasy product. CPAP relies on air volume rate which this thing can't possibly deliver. For example have you ever tried to blow up an air bed with one of those small electric compressor tire pumps ? I tried to do it once and after an hour it was barely inflated. Then got the el-cheapo 12V vacuum cleaner which also doubles as a blower and it did it in minutes !! Are then any examples of a prototype which actually produces a measured volume of air ? ie how many liters per minute etc ?

 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #186 on: March 04, 2017, 12:21:32 pm »

Hate to rain on your parade but this thing was doomed from the start and you are just paying for these dudes indulgence in a fantasy product. CPAP relies on air volume rate which this thing can't possibly deliver. For example have you ever tried to blow up an air bed with one of those small electric compressor tire pumps ? I tried to do it once and after an hour it was barely inflated. Then got the el-cheapo 12V vacuum cleaner which also doubles as a blower and it did it in minutes !! Are then any examples of a prototype which actually produces a measured volume of air ? ie how many liters per minute etc ?

Im sceptical too but I'm also curious to see if they manage to produce a working product. They probably wont, but I had the spare money at the time and could afford to throw it away on a curiosity.
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Offline edy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #187 on: July 05, 2017, 11:56:12 am »
Some more updates from this crazy campaign. Amazingly they are still going at it:

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components

And here they are talking about their blowers... I kid you not they title it STAND BACK IT'S ABOUT TO BLOW!

http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/19/stand-back-its-about-to-blow

It has been 2 years and 1.8 million $ in this project... I wonder how much they've burned through already. I would love to get $1.8 million to set up a lab with no oversight to work on some project with no time limit except the speed at which I use the funds, and basically no liability if I turn up with nothing. That's a dream job! ... except that these micro blowers have a chance of snowball in hell of actually working well enough to treat sleep apnea. Airing will fold and Marsh will sell patents or actual micro blowers for some other applications. Thank you gullible IndieGogo backers for funding my startup and getting nothing in return while I stuff my portfolio!

So here is a photo posted on their FACEBOOK page dated October 13, 2016... roughly 1.5 years into the Airing project. Guess what the poster behind Marsh is about? It is showing his Power Cell and Power Chip Architecture that he patented when he was working at Encite LLC: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8518594.html



So why is this event and a fuzzy poster behind him being shown?

According to the Boston Patent Law Association website, the "Invented Here!" event (http://www.bpla.org/?page=52) gives a list of all previous honorees:

https://bpla.site-ym.com/resource/resmgr/InventedHere/BPLA_Invented_Here_List_of_.xlsx

In 2012 (honoree #12),  Marsh shows up with 2 others on the Encite LLC team for patent 8172912 on "Self-Regulating Gas Generator and Method". Then in the 2014 tab he is listed again (honoree #4) with the same group, same company, same patent number! In 2016 we see Marsh's patent 8,518,594 on "Power Cell and Power Chip Architecture" also under Encite, LLC (filed March 2, 2007). Good on Marsh for being an awesome inventor... But what does this have to do with Airing? Does it prove that Marsh has a history of innovating and inventing stuff that gets to market and makes successful returns to investors? NOPE. The whole story here: http://www.potteranderson.com/delawarecase-185.html

So far I see Marsh as a successful entrepreneur skilled at obtaining investment capital and pursuing his dreams of fabricating his inventions but which don't seem to pan out to commercially viable products. The fuel cells, the self-regulating gas generator, the micro-blowers. Could this be the same Stephen A. Marsh that brought us this: https://www.google.com/patents/US4875358



... It's a bit tough putting it on after you've inflated and tested it, no?

All joking aside, I wish Airing success I just hope the campaign has been honest about their intent from the beginning....Not a make-work project to push out a bunch more patents and company shell-games to drum up capital from venture capitalists (and now poor unsuspecting IndieGoGo users).
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 01:01:09 pm by edy »
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Offline snoopy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #188 on: July 05, 2017, 06:56:58 pm »
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #189 on: July 05, 2017, 07:39:57 pm »
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".

Lol, I did but only out of engineering curiosity and it was less than $100 or one fun night out on the turps.  8)

PS, they have more chance of delivering a working product than uBeam imo.  :-DD
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Offline snoopy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #190 on: July 05, 2017, 08:49:32 pm »
Who are the suckers that put money into this crazy idea ? Say goodbye to your money :(

Like P.T.Barnum said "There is a sucker born every minute".

Lol, I did but only out of engineering curiosity and it was less than $100 or one fun night out on the turps.  8)

PS, they have more chance of delivering a working product than uBeam imo.  :-DD

The hot air coming out of their mouths would be stronger than what this thing can do :D LOL
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #191 on: July 05, 2017, 09:08:31 pm »
The hot air coming out of their mouths would be stronger than what this thing can do :D LOL

True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).
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Offline edy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #192 on: July 05, 2017, 10:53:43 pm »
My criticism throughout this thread is directed more to the funding method and preying on the medically-vulnerable than of the Airing development itself.

I have nothing against what Marsh and his team is doing. We need these kinds of tech innovators and startups and visionaries like Marsh to lead the cause. As crazy as their idea sounds, and even if they don't ever produce a functioning Airing, they may produce some tech along the way which is useful. If venture capitalists and investors with too much money want to throw their cash at Marsh and see what sticks, I am all for that! But in the case of investors, they are in a legally-binding framework with checks and balances, repercussions and liabilities if things go sour. And when things go well, the investors stand to profit from it.

On the other hand.... My biggest criticism is NOT about Airing or Marsh. It is about their use of a crowd-funding platform to target a medically-vulnerable population that is desperate enough for a different therapy that you may claim they are not able to make a rational decision. Now, you can say that people are free to give their money to anything and that is it. But here we have Marsh circumventing the usual VC/bank/investor style of fund-raising and having no legal obligations to anyone, and even if he is successful, pocketing all of the benefits from whatever patents are produced and sold to competitors or patent troll firms. He can spend money however he chooses, and take as long as he wants.

Again, Marsh is brilliant by going the crowd-funding route and he may have had no choice because of his legal tangle with Encite LLC and previous corps. The media marketing campaign, independent press/bloggers that only want to increase page views and ad clicks, and IndieGoGo site itself will fluff up an idea beyond any realistic expectations and the public masses fall prey to it. Yes you can say "a sucker is born every minute" and "a fool and his money are soon parted"... People need to do their research before clicking to fund a campaign. But with more and more of these crowd-funding ventures ending up in the toilet, is this a healthy way to promote the platform? Is this a healthy way to compensate crowd-funders? I think eventually people will wise-up to this, and sadly it will affect all of the honest crowd-funding projects out there negatively which is why I want to see better controls so it doesn't spoil it for the rest of us.
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Offline mtdoc

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #193 on: July 06, 2017, 04:04:59 am »
True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).

Actually, I'm afraid that doing what they propose, no matter how good the microblower or how good the battery, is impossible. The reasons why were discussed earlier in this thread. But it may be that they just don't understand the mechanics and physiology of obstructive sleep apnea well enough to realize that.
 

Offline djos

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2017, 06:34:11 am »
True, the BS is strong with them ... that said I dont think what they are trying to do is impossible, just difficult (and pointless).

Actually, I'm afraid that doing what they propose, no matter how good the microblower or how good the battery, is impossible. The reasons why were discussed earlier in this thread. But it may be that they just don't understand the mechanics and physiology of obstructive sleep apnea well enough to realize that.

You may well be correct, I backed the campaign for the same reason others here backed batteriser, curiosity.
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Offline m98

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #195 on: July 06, 2017, 08:55:59 am »
They want to use zinc air hearing-aid batteries as the energy source: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components
 :-DD
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #196 on: July 06, 2017, 08:30:30 pm »
They want to use zinc air hearing-aid batteries as the energy source: http://www.fundairing.com/journal/2017/6/26/the-airing-micro-cpap-device-major-components
 :-DD

This is next level bullshit if I ever saw it !! They are confusing static pressure with dynamic pressure. Sure they can achieve the right static pressure with a pressure sensor and servo feedback loop to blow up the air passage but as soon as the air starts moving in and out as the person breaths can they maintain this pressure ? With this toy I very much doubt it !! Somehow their understanding of the problem is lacking somewhat.

Quote
Pressure Sensor- As we have described in our previous blog, Airing’s micro-CPAP device wouldn’t work without a micro pressure sensor. The micro pressure sensor has two very important functions. First, it is an integral part of the feedback loop that ensures that the micro-blowers are delivering the pressure needed to maintain the treatment level prescribed by your physician. Second, the pressure sensor collects data about your use of the device, which can be used to prove the compliance for insurance reimbursement purposes.
 

Offline Mukrakiish

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #197 on: July 07, 2017, 07:39:31 am »
Speaking as someone who has done warranty repair on every major brand of CPAP on the market, Eddy has the technical end of things well covered. I’ve repaired/tested/calibrated thousands of CPAP’s and there is not a single piece of this thing that makes sense or can produce the needed pressure required. There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out. Each generation they produce is usually more compact and depending on the manufacturer, better reliability or more bells and whistles. Considering Respironics in particular has Phillips backing them, it’s not lack of money or engineering. If it was possible, it would have already been done. The CPAP industry is cut-throat in who gets the biggest market share.

There’s going to be a lot of unhappy sleepless people to follow this train-wreck.  :palm:
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #198 on: July 07, 2017, 01:54:43 pm »
There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out.
Not necessarily. Airling are talking about a pump composed of thousands of electrostatic micropumps. Also Airling are talking about a device that has to only work for about 8 hours and then it is discarded, and that can be sold in qualities of hundreds per patient per year. I doubt that the traditional companies have ever investigated the concepts. Normal CPAP machines are designed to run almost silently for 8 hours+ a night for many years with a very high reliability. The "big boys" also love the market in which they can sell a mask ( a few bits of injected molded plastic with a bit of silicone rubber) for one or two hundred dollars. They probably have a 1000% markup on the CPAP pumps prices. They have an extremely profitable business model and I doubt they want to disrupt it.

I just suspect this is like uBeam in that they are developing technology that can be useful, but not in the promoted usage. The difference with Airling is that the fund-raising didn't promise much - it was basically raising money to pay for research. As long as they use the money to do research, they have met their promise. The perks offered to contributors amounted to almost nothing - a voucher which would save a small portion of the first years bill, if the product even got to market.

Airling are saying the micropump would pump thousands of times a second. That sounds like an audio frequency. So the thing will be whistling very loudly all night, unless they have multiple phased drivers. It all sounds useless for a device that is means to be manufactured at about $1 a device. However if they can develop a very cheap micropump array, it may have a big market in other areas.

I doubt it will be a "train-wreck" simply because I don't believe the Airling branded CPAP device will ever get near to market. In the completely miraculous situation where they did succeed with a plausible cheap concept that actually worked, I am certain they would sell the design to a medical giant as getting it approved for market would cost a fortune. Airling are probably under no obligation to ensure a buyer passed on the perks to the contributors.
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: The Airing
« Reply #199 on: July 08, 2017, 11:16:34 pm »
There is SO much more involved than a tiny little feedback loop sensor and “micro turbines” in this little toy. If anyone was able to create something worthwhile, at this size, one of the “big boys” (Respironics, Resmed, etc) would have long figured it out.
Not necessarily. Airling are talking about a pump composed of thousands of electrostatic micropumps. Also Airling are talking about a device that has to only work for about 8 hours and then it is discarded, and that can be sold in qualities of hundreds per patient per year. I doubt that the traditional companies have ever investigated the concepts. Normal CPAP machines are designed to run almost silently for 8 hours+ a night for many years with a very high reliability. The "big boys" also love the market in which they can sell a mask ( a few bits of injected molded plastic with a bit of silicone rubber) for one or two hundred dollars. They probably have a 1000% markup on the CPAP pumps prices. They have an extremely profitable business model and I doubt they want to disrupt it.

I just suspect this is like uBeam in that they are developing technology that can be useful, but not in the promoted usage. The difference with Airling is that the fund-raising didn't promise much - it was basically raising money to pay for research. As long as they use the money to do research, they have met their promise. The perks offered to contributors amounted to almost nothing - a voucher which would save a small portion of the first years bill, if the product even got to market.

Airling are saying the micropump would pump thousands of times a second. That sounds like an audio frequency. So the thing will be whistling very loudly all night, unless they have multiple phased drivers. It all sounds useless for a device that is means to be manufactured at about $1 a device. However if they can develop a very cheap micropump array, it may have a big market in other areas.

I doubt it will be a "train-wreck" simply because I don't believe the Airling branded CPAP device will ever get near to market. In the completely miraculous situation where they did succeed with a plausible cheap concept that actually worked, I am certain they would sell the design to a medical giant as getting it approved for market would cost a fortune. Airling are probably under no obligation to ensure a buyer passed on the perks to the contributors.

That sounds like the description of a scam where someone takes money under false pretenses.
 


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