EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Crowd Funded Projects => Topic started by: EEVblog on June 09, 2015, 11:21:02 am
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Yup, he's back! :scared:
https://www.angelsden.com/project-view/ORSTO-Smart-Watch-Phones (https://www.angelsden.com/project-view/ORSTO-Smart-Watch-Phones)
For those who forget, the guy behind this Paul Gill is a verifiable liar, he was caught red handed making multiple accounts on this forum trying to talk up his watch pretending to be a customer. He wouldn't even admit it when caught and I confronted him about it. He fled to the hills.
Beware the Kickstarter is now live:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro)
Previous thread to his dodgy products here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/full-android-watch/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/crowd-funded-projects/full-android-watch/)
Not the first time he's tried to raise equity either: http://web.archive.org/web/20140420100907/http://crowdcube.dev.crowdcube.com/investment/orsto-13749 (http://web.archive.org/web/20140420100907/http://crowdcube.dev.crowdcube.com/investment/orsto-13749)
Funny how his new Q2 smartwatch looks just like this DM360 ::)
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dm360&biw=1440&bih=718&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=xth2VevoKpLooASX5YKQBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg (https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=dm360&biw=1440&bih=718&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=xth2VevoKpLooASX5YKQBQ&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg)
Because that's the scam, he just rebadges Chinese smartwatches.
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How about a 'debunking' style video re: Orsto
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His Angelsden pitch is head exploding stuff....
The business plan:
1) First make sure google searches show you as a serial scammer
2) Pick a market where you have clearly missed the boat by 6 months
3) Go head to head with apple, samsung etc.
The video pitch:
4) Tape A4 print out of your logo to your wall for the professional touch
5) Vague Jibber jabber
3) "Someone said they would order 16,000 annual units", honest they did guv.
4) Ask for £100,000 for 4% equity..... so his valuation of his company is £2,500,000.
Amazingly there is apparently £14,752 raised so far.
I too have an A4 printer and access to Aliexpress, I should be worth millions.
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lol nice, the dm360 smart watch returns, not bad for 50% mark up from aliexpress
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-New-Bluetooth-Smartwatches-DM360-Smart-watch-for-IOS-and-Andriod-Mobile-Phone-with-Heart-rate/32340514093.html?currencyType=USD (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-New-Bluetooth-Smartwatches-DM360-Smart-watch-for-IOS-and-Andriod-Mobile-Phone-with-Heart-rate/32340514093.html?currencyType=USD)
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He is very careful not to actually say Orsto developed the watch from the ground up, but it is heavily implied. There is a lot of bullshit tossed around, like being the only European watch/phone manufacturer, and the many times words like vast, immense, unrivaled and such are tossed around.
The reality is that this guy is taking off-the-shelf Chinese smartwatch guts and putting them in a new case. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but he should just be honest about it. Whenever companies try to pass themselves off as huge operations and BS their way through their self-aggrandizing presentations, it is just SOOO transparent.
If they really do add value and have a good product, they should be happy to sell on that and have no need to make up bullshit stories and claims about themselves or their products. So when the bullshit runs deep, you know that they are covering for the product itself.
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Quite ironic that he accuses Chinese companies of not being honest :palm:
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The reality is that this guy is taking off-the-shelf Chinese smartwatch guts and putting them in a new case.
Doesn't look like he's even doing that?
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DM360:
(https://img.fasttechcdn.com/243/2438005/2438005-4.jpg)
(http://img.hisupplier.com/var/userImages/2015-05/01/125608971_DM360_8_jpg_s.jpg)
Orsto Q2:
(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/826/703/2d9e2361eb037ad6a88adfe3445c224f_original.png?v=1432115066&w=680&h=&fit=max&auto=format&lossless=true&s=1d399d6da075bc5005069d055fd05148)
(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/793/483/d220bdcfe5c15638e21902ea21a779c0_original.png?v=1431638797&w=680&h=&fit=max&auto=format&lossless=true&s=dfde24a3a286e9a9aab55d70ca47b3f3)
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Ha! You're right - not even a new case. I hadn't seen the black and gold colors, but now I see the OEM is making those as well.
So it's really just "some" kind of software enhancements. He says that a stretch goal is to add a camera. The watch uses a similar LCD setup to the Moto360 with the blank spot at the bottom for the connection. Orsto claims that a stretch goal is to add a camera there - and he has even spec'ed out which camera. I wonder if he has talked to the watch manufacturer about that... re-engineering a whole LCD isn't easy or cheap, and if the connection could simply be changed or downsized, presumably they would have done it. I imagine he just has the idea that "with enough $$, anything is possible" and if he hits that target, he'll be able to get the camera put in as a custom job.
This whole project is a giant mess. At least people have figured out in the comments that he is just selling them an off-the-shelf watch (at a hefty markup) and claiming to have his own front end.
But he is still talking about the hardware as if it's a customized version of the DM360... it looks like there is nothing custom about it at all other than the software (that he hasn't shown anything of).
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A couple of backers have already twigged that this an Aliexpress job
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro/comments?cursor=10106502#comment-10106501 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro/comments?cursor=10106502#comment-10106501)
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Judging by comments I think he is also planning to add 20% VAT (tax) for EU buyers after the fact. Surely that's against kickstarter rules too?
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A couple of backers have already twigged that this an Aliexpress job
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro/comments?cursor=10106502#comment-10106501 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2146579200/orsto-q2-the-uber-smart-round-smartwatch-for-andro/comments?cursor=10106502#comment-10106501)
Was bound to happen, this watch turns up all over the place. Heck, Buy It Now on ebay:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dm360-SmartWatch-For-Android-IOS-Support-Sleep-Heart-Rate-Monitor-Handfree-call-/161728645365 (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Dm360-SmartWatch-For-Android-IOS-Support-Sleep-Heart-Rate-Monitor-Handfree-call-/161728645365)
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Is it just me, or does Mr. Gill's thumb appear to be blocking the the spot on the watch where the camera is supposed to sit during the selfie camera demo around 3:39 in the Kickstarter video?
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If anyone had any doubts as to how seriously Kickstarter treats Trust and Safety - the answer is clear... "Not at all!". This project is still active.
KS's rules are very clear - you are not allowed to simply list existing products that you are reselling. What Orsto/Gill are really selling is a claimed different version of the OS or interface for this existing watch. But what is shown in the video is the off-the-shelf watch and it's off-the-shelf OS. That also violates another of KS's rules which states you must show your own work and what you intend to deliver. Orsto doesn't... they are just showing someone else's product while implying it is their own and they never show the stuff they claim as their own - nor do they even describe what it is or does, only that they have some "in" with the developers.
This project is so clearly in violation of KS's rules that it's making a mockery of the whole site for as long as it remains up.
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Well, that's basically how OEMs work...
Do you think companies like Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. make everything in the laptops they sell?
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Well, that's basically how OEMs work...
Do you think companies like Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. make everything in the laptops they sell?
Not the same thing.
Dell/HP/Lenovo don't just take an Asus laptop in it's entirety and slap on a brand logo and sell it as their own. Nor do they claim they are without equal in laptop R&D and are at the forefront of laptop R&D, etc etc, when all they have done is resell someone else's stuff.
And if they did private label existing products, they wouldn't claim that they designed them as this guy does:
http://www.orsto.com/about-orsto.html (http://www.orsto.com/about-orsto.html)
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Virtually all of Toshiba's laptops, TVs, DVD/Bluray/etc players are made by OEMs, they do very little themselves now. (These products are usually crap and cheap, rarely better than the supermarket brands.) They don't even bother to write the same manuals, as they have the same typos and spelling errors.
What Paul here is doing is not fraud, sure it could be called immoral but he doesn't actually claim to be manufacturing them himself and only says Orsto will do final assembly, which could simply mean putting on the watch strap and setting the time.
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Dell/HP/Lenovo don't just take an Asus laptop in it's entirety and slap on a brand logo and sell it as their own.
Actually that is often what happens. Not so much for quality brands like Lenovo and Asus, but the cheap crap brands and own brands often just rebadge common Chinese models. There are a couple of Chinese OEMs who specialize in this.
Actually, Lenovo OEMs too; Asus make their own. Most of these are Taiwanese. If you look at laptop schematics or motherboards you'll probably see one of these names on them:
- Compal
- Foxconn
- Inventec
- Pegatron
- Quanta
- Wistron
Even "manufacturing" is vaguely defined - anything between obtaining the raw materials and sending the product to the customer is part of that. After all, no one gets complaints for using an off-the-shelf IC instead of mining their own silicon...
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Even "manufacturing" is vaguely defined - anything between obtaining the raw materials and sending the product to the customer is part of that. After all, no one gets complaints for using an off-the-shelf IC instead of mining their own silicon...
The term for (electronics product) manufacturing is quite well defined and accepted in the industry. It is getting the board etc assembled etc to your design and specifications. Generally that would also involve designing the circuit, laying out the PCB's, doing the BOM, case etc.
Of course all of these individual things can be subcontracted out, but for a company to say they have "manufactured" something, then they have to have had tangible design input into the product, and have personal hand in at least some parts of the manufacturing process.
Orsto "manufacture" nothing, they are lying. They (just he it seems) have bee doing this for years, over and over again.
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Kickstarter cancelled by author
Here is Paul's last update before cancelling:
Felt compelled to drop this on here. Kind of sums things up at the moment. Where we are getting as many contributors as cancellation. 21 contributions over the last day and 20 cancelled.
These are the first 2 comments on an article about ORSTO Q2 launch.
I like the look of this watch but it looks identical to many Chinese watches out there. If you search for DM360 for example. The software seems identical also. Is this not against KS rules? I would be too worried that this is a reselling project! You can buy the same thing for a lot less already.
Wow really. Cheaper than £65. As a UK supplier I would buy this osto any day over the following: You pay your pounds or dollars to Chinese company on Chinese website or ebay etc. 3 weeks later the UPS guy is stood at the front door with his hand our asking for £50 for unpaid duties, VAT and other extras you did not expect. Then you get it out of its box, presuming something is in the box and the whole software is Chinese. It beeps and shuts down. Then who do you go to for help? You are now presumably £100 + out of pocket. Don't take these Chinese websites at face value. Been there, seen that done that. Nightmare!
The comments and article that Paul is referring to are here:
http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/orsto-q2-smartwatch-launches-on-kickstarter-for-65-10-06-2015/ (http://www.geeky-gadgets.com/orsto-q2-smartwatch-launches-on-kickstarter-for-65-10-06-2015/)
The comment defending Orsto was written by a user named 'dt and co'. In fact, dt and co clearly must be some loyal fan because all of his previous comments on that same website sing the praises of Orsto. Hmmmmm. :palm:
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Hmmmm...
We had been monitoring negative messages and coinciding chatter on a well known troll forum so we could see what was coming.
I wonder.
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aaaand its been cancelled!
hank you for your wonderful comments of support and of course the question of Why did we cancel the campaign which was 35% funded on day 2.
We had been monitoring negative messages and coinciding chatter on a well known troll forum so we could see what was coming.
In addition Kickstarter denied our request to show backers the renders of the production casings. Stating that renders are NOT allowed on Kickstarter at all.
This left us in a position that was unsuitable for both ourselves and our backers.
If any backers would like to purchase any ORSTO products, then please go to our website http://www.orsto.com (http://www.orsto.com) shop, which will be available to take orders again by Saturday.
The ORSTO Team
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Well that's been an entertaining and educational day! After receiving the notification about the project cancellation because of you horrible trolls (obviously) I did what any normal person would do and searched for them! Hey folks! :)
Why would you all but direct people here in cancelling your project? I hadn't search for negative press about them until they told me it was out there. Now I'm sure countless backers have done the same. Did they really want us all reading this? Glad I did to be honest. I did nearly die laughing on their update this afternoon about what a good deal £65 was. Did I miss something or weren't we all in line to pay additional taxes and unknown charges, just like those pesky Chinese deliveries turning up at the door? Assuming you were even in the early bird backers.
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I also don't know if any of you spotted this comment from the infamous "dt and co".
So far only UK smartwatch design specialists ORSTO have managed to create a suitable size and style of standalone and were rumoured recently to have been acquired by the mighty Apple corp.
I'm sure Apple are rushing to get out their chequebook
https://disqus.com/by/dtandco/
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Funding Canceled
Funding for this project was canceled by the project creator about 4 hours ago.
hmmm, i wonder what happened. ^-^
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Even "manufacturing" is vaguely defined - anything between obtaining the raw materials and sending the product to the customer is part of that. After all, no one gets complaints for using an off-the-shelf IC instead of mining their own silicon...
The term for (electronics product) manufacturing is quite well defined and accepted in the industry. It is getting the board etc assembled etc to your design and specifications. Generally that would also involve designing the circuit, laying out the PCB's, doing the BOM, case etc.
Of course all of these individual things can be subcontracted out, but for a company to say they have "manufactured" something, then they have to have had tangible design input into the product, and have personal hand in at least some parts of the manufacturing process.
Orsto "manufacture" nothing, they are lying. They (just he it seems) have bee doing this for years, over and over again.
Exactly, Dave.
I forgot how pedantic engineers try to be. Of course I realize that many of the large laptop brands aren't pick-n-placing their own PCB's and that companies like Foxconn let you choose the processor, mass storage, optical and screen you want, then slap on a bezel customized with your logo... but that is not what I am talking about. It is quite rare that company A takes a product from company B in it's entirety and just slaps their own sticker on it. It's the difference between a fully bespoke suit and getting something off the rack adjusted to fit. But both of those are again very different than if Oxxford was sending someone over to the Ralph Lauren outlet store, and sewing Oxxford labels over the Lauren ones.
The pictures that were on the KS page are just the vanilla product as it comes from Zeaplus, as was the OS/software. The project never made it clear that what was being offered was essentially a customized skin onto an existing product. They claimed the skin was the hardware and software - but curiously, the hardware (the watch case) looked *identical* to the one right from Zeaplus, except with some slight embellishment (a groove around the case or something). As someone who does his own CNC machining in-house, it would be asinine to get a custom case cut that looked identical to the OEM case, except with an extra groove. At best, you would use OEM cases and cut that feature into them. So it's OEM case, OEM electronics - meaning only the software is different. Except those differences weren't explained other than the "close relationship with Mentor Graphics" - but the software shown in the video was the same stuff that comes with the watch.
I wonder how well aware Mentor Graphics legal and product development teams are that they are working closely with Orsto? I'm guessing it's more likely someone knows someone who used to work there (or still does) that said they'd help them with something or other. I'll wager there is zero official and documented relationship there.
Which means all that's *really* being offered is the promise to do "something" with the software - and for that you get to drastically overpay for an off-the-shelf watch. Not exactly compelling.
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We had been monitoring negative messages and coinciding chatter on a well known troll forum so we could see what was coming.
The very same "troll forum" that Paul Gill himself set up a fake account on to try and talk up his own product on previous smart watch project where he has done exactly the same thing as here! :-DD
And then not having the balls to admit it after being caught red handed. Pathetic.
If you can't defend your product against genuine criticism with honest evidence, then you don't deserve to be in business.
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yeh when you zoom right in with your electron microscope at to 4 nanometres you start seeing the atoms like little balls.