Author Topic: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?  (Read 3927 times)

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Offline pilleya

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TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« on: September 02, 2018, 11:03:04 pm »
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/travelock-the-ultimate-smart-fingerprint-lock#/

Thin ss wire looks very easy to cut and defeat while photos alude to it being suitable for protecting bikes etc.

100kg max load does no bode well, most adult males( and plenty of women) can supply that with two hands.

Campaign itself seems fishy CEO Diana Hardy and from San Fran( choose a well known tech hub lol ) no mention of her elsewhere and loads of grammatical errors on page and facebook page paints a picture of this campaign being by the two guys listed at the bottom and not by english first language 'Diana'.

It seems like backers will get their product, just it will not be suitable for the "locking" aspect.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2018, 11:08:59 pm by pilleya »
 

Online agehall

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 11:12:21 pm »
I'm looking forward to the lock nerds picking this one apart. I don't think this is a lock I want to entrust anything valuable to...
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 11:12:30 pm »
Relevant tool ...

 
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Offline timgiles

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 11:59:32 pm »
The lock is operated by independent AI!!!!!!!

First, what is that?
Second, why is it not operated by a sensor and a controller?

Also, who out there in the world takes 60s to undo a standard padlock? Takes me around 2-3s. Who are these people who need a minute to do that?
 

Online blueskull

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 12:11:20 am »
It says luggage compatible, so I would assume it is TSA compatible, which defeats all security features it *might* provide.
 
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Online Berni

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 12:39:09 am »
Yep pretty sure you could cut that thing with a decent pair of tin snips even.

Actually... it says 100kg capacity. In that case all you need is a sturdy stick or broom handle or similar to jam into the loop and use the leverage to twist it, easily putting 10x that force on it and likely making it fall apart.
 
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Online HwAoRrDk

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 02:33:20 am »
Appears to be the same thing featured in this teardown here:

https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/hardware-reverse-engineering-a-tale-from-the-workbench/

And, yes, it seems a pair of snips can cut through the wire. :D Also can be opened with a magnet!
 

Offline pilleya

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 02:47:01 am »
Oh wow ok, so this isn't even a new product. This is might just be a off the shelf China/alibaba special with a logo slapped on.

Typical of quite a lot of the stuff on Indiegogo tbh. I guess Indiegogo don't care though, they are still technically crown funding to purchase the custom run.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 02:51:55 am by pilleya »
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 04:14:26 am »
I would but it (if it were cheaper).

You wouldn't say a bicycle is useless because it doesn't do 200MPH, carry 15 persons or run submerged for half an hour. When someone says 'lock' there are a range of uses, not all of them requiring a hasp that takes 4 hours to cut through with an oxyacetalene torch.

My use would be merely to keep my bag secure from those unable to resist temptation. You could cut the bag with a knife, but no-one's going to do that (at least, no-one this is to protect against. But leave the bag open and sticky fingers will have a poke around. I could use a traditional lock, but it would look a bit daft and I couldn't be arsed to carry a key everywhere. This fingerprint lock is ideal for that situation: doesn't obviously shout "I don't trust any of you gits", never forget a key, quickly undone, etc.

Horses for course. The only reason, apart from price, I might not go for this is because it's Indiegogo and flexible funding.
 

Online ogden

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 04:38:18 am »
Oh wow ok, so this isn't even a new product. This is might just be a off the shelf China/alibaba special with a logo slapped on.

It indeed is Fipilock with original logo on it (amazon price: 55$). They just resell (w/o rebranding!) for double price  :-DD
 

Offline GregDunn

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2018, 01:40:20 pm »
But "It is always the most desirable wish in our society.  If you want to realize the desire, then TRAVELOCK is your best choose."   :-DD :palm:
 

Offline edy

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2018, 09:39:41 am »
Yes, as mentioned above by @ogden, this thing is indeed called a Fipilock: http://www.fipilock.net/company-profile/. Company: http://www.walsuntech.com/

The one in the blog linked above (https://www.pentestpartners.com/security-blog/hardware-reverse-engineering-a-tale-from-the-workbench/) has the same markings and says FIPILOCK on the bottom as does the one on the IndieGoGo site for Travelock. They did not even bother to rebrand it:

BLOG version:



TRAVELOCK version:




Google-search reveals a bunch of them on eBay, Amazon and other retailers. Price on eBay is about $55-60, making the IndieGoGo pricing for the early bird 2x $119 offer actually not bad at all. However, all of the subsequent offers ($99 a lock) are way over-priced. And considering that the thing is ALREADY produced and being sold, I would hope the risk from this campaign is ZERO provided the founders aren't just SCAMMING people completely.

Plus you can find lots of reviews online and even YouTube videos about the Fipilock, so unless these guys made something new (which I doubt) you already can see how bad it is. And even if you were going to buy it, it would still be better getting it from eBay or Amazon. At least there you have some recourse regarding refunds if you never get the item or if it is defective.

Aside from the fingerprint reader being spotty, it does seem the design would allow one to insert a broom handle in the loop and do a few twists and rip that cable out of the lock housing. The cable also looks very thin, I can't imagine it would take very big snippers to chop through. Then again, these types of locks are "opportunistic deterrents", to keep a curious pass-by from poking in to something. I would not trust my bike to this. For luggage it is good to keep a shoddy hotel employee out looking for a quick easy opportunity.

Here they are making it in Shenzhen China (I like the yellow vest uniforms):



On Alibaba you can buy for as low as $29.99.... These things look like toys. In the video above you can better see the scale of the lock and how thin the cable wire is. Does not instil any confidence at all.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Shenzhen-hot-sales-travel-lock-biometric_60692765322.html?spm=a2700.7724838.2017115.335.71064b1bwvLUw8
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 09:53:32 am by edy »
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Offline riccardo.pittini

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2018, 05:24:37 pm »
Have you seen how safe it is as bike lock ???;D

It fully protects a spoke of the wheel and I think it can reach an impressive 100ns protection for the full bike!!!!!  :-DD


On my bikes I use a 14mm U-lock and I still fear for them to survive a 30min stop to the supermarket -_-
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2018, 05:39:41 pm »
Wow, that looks totally piss-weak.
I suspect if you simply hopped on the bike and rode off it would snap. or kicked the gate open.



 

Offline PeterL

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2018, 08:36:01 pm »
Julian Ilett already made a video about it:
 
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Online Berni

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2018, 09:15:45 pm »
Wait the other end of the cable is simply screwed in?! :o That is a pretty damn major flaw if you ask me.

One of those damn security screws that manufacturers use to keep you from getting into products is more secure than this lock! And that's a pretty low bar to live up to, since a lot of security screws can be defeated with just the right size flathead screwdriver (possibly filed to fit)
 

Offline edy

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 10:30:31 pm »
This piece of garbage will most likely foil the user more often than any thief, requiring the user to destroy it in the process. Several scenarios (very likely) are in mind:

1. I can see someone forgetting to charge the battery, or forgetting the lock on their luggage for several months. When they try and use it, it will be discharged and who knows how good the battery is and whether it will keep a charge, and for how long? There is built-in obsolescence because of the unknown quality of the battery inside.

2. The other issue is the USB port itself, could it be used to defeat or at least bugger-up the battery also? Let's say you plug in a little USB dongle that shorts out the charging pins? I would hope there is some electrical protection but if someone wants to just screw with you, they could blow it electronically or ruin the port, or stick some "gum" inside just to piss you off.

3. They show it on a bike (WHAT A JOKE!) but is this thing going to stand up to rain? How waterproof is it, and could that ruin the electronics in it? If it doesn't ruin the electronics, will it ruin the USB port? I assume there is a rubber flap over the USB port but there may be space around where the cable enters the lock to allow water.

4. With all the videos now available of the lock being opened and the weaknesses known (and the manual on how to reset), and the inside on how it works and how the cable is "screwed" into the other end, etc... (like the video linked in the previous posting), who will really be surprised when their relatively expensive lock is defeated?

5. The fingerprint sensor seems to be unreliable and so I imagine that a user may have issues with it and eventually get defeated out of their own lock. Every video seems to show people pressing on it multiple times, it not registering, etc. Another malfunction point to add to the many modes of failure.

There are so many things wrong with this lock, it is unbelievable that anyone would even want to buy it. It is a case of "smart" technology applied in a completely wrong situation. There are other smart locks, electronic, blue-tooth enabled, etc... that do have interesting features and add innovation to the industry, but this lock is NOT it. There are so many more effective options that are less costly and a better deterrent than this lock.

In fact, you are probably better buying 3-4 U-Locks with the same money... at least it will add more time and be more obvious someone is stealing your bike, in case it is a public area somebody may at least notice and stop them. And if the whole point of this is not to require keys, then get several COMBINATION locks with chains/cables if needed. Either way they would require heavier tools to cut than this FIPILOCK garbage toy:

« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 10:35:04 pm by edy »
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2018, 10:50:28 pm »
Quote
In fact, you are probably better buying 3-4 U-Locks with the same money

For some uses, that would be a worse solution since they would never be carried and whartever would never be locked. Things have to be proportionate, and whilst this lock in inappropriate for keeping a bicycle secure, Fort Knox style security is bonkers for uses where this lock would be good.

All locks can be broken. Since you speak so highly of YouTube videos, there are loads of people removing serious locks with powered saws, and no-one stops them. I own a high-value vehicle and my worry is not some opportunistic toerag who is going to be foiled by a simple brake lock (really, it's aluminium and easily cut through, but an opportunist won't have a hack saw). No, my worry is the organised gang literally picking it up and throwing it in the back of a van, alarm blaring, and taking it apart whils they drive back to their yard. Videos of this happening too, and no-one calls the cops.

Do you use 2FA to log into EEVBlog? No? See how poorly you treat your own security, yet are happy to rail at the possibility of using someone elses solution for a problem it's not appropriate for.
 

Online Berni

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2018, 11:09:15 pm »
But at least those locks need a proper tool to get them off rather than something that might be found in a swiss army knife. Yet with this lock you can probably get of off and on again with just bare hands while not even destroying the lock in the process.

Like the computer lab in school had a fancy keycard lock on the door, yet i could get inside using just some normal scissors. A lot of students carry those around. No damage and no trace left of breaking in.
 

Offline edy

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2018, 11:16:58 pm »
Quote
In fact, you are probably better buying 3-4 U-Locks with the same money

For some uses, that would be a worse solution since they would never be carried and whartever would never be locked. Things have to be proportionate, and whilst this lock in inappropriate for keeping a bicycle secure...Do you use 2FA to log into EEVBlog? No? See how poorly you treat your own security, yet are happy to rail at the possibility of using someone elses solution for a problem it's not appropriate for.

Fair enough, you are correct in that each situation does call for a unique locking solution and a determined thief would not be deterred by stronger locks. My other points are that why would one introduce the added complexity of electronics which introduce so many new modes of failure if it is a trade off to better mechanical only solutions?
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2018, 11:17:21 pm »
Wait the other end of the cable is simply screwed in?! :o That is a pretty damn major flaw if you ask me.

One of those damn security screws that manufacturers use to keep you from getting into products is more secure than this lock! And that's a pretty low bar to live up to, since a lot of security screws can be defeated with just the right size flathead screwdriver (possibly filed to fit)

Most security bits are available online or in stores, easy peasy.The ultimate shame would be to steal the bike and leave the screw behind, though I'm pretty sure tugging would also pop that tiny toy clasp.

The same situation still applies. Why buy this expensive POS when you could spend less and get a bit more security? Just get a real combination luggage lock, batteries not required. This crap doesn't even have the proper Travel Sentry TSA logo on it! :palm:
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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2018, 01:06:46 am »
Quote
you can probably get of off and on again with just bare hands

Maybe, doubt it. It is one thing to unscrew when it is straight and untethered, quite another when it's in a loop. I think one would need to try that for real, but in the end it is no worse really than a Yale lock when everyone knows how to bump them.

Quote
why would one introduce the added complexity of electronics

No key. Nothing to leave behind or mess around with. I've just been introduced to a fingerprint sensor on my smart phone (previous one didn't have it) and it is great - no more remembering PINs (all different) and typing them in incorrectly. Just dab and it''s done.

It's that aspect that attracts me to this lock: I am trading ease of use for lower security, but that ease of use means it would be used where a more secure lock wouldn't, so there is a net gain.

Quote
so many new modes of failure

This is  a valid point and I am going from the position of not having one. If it were half the price I would get it just to see, and if it turns out to be flaky then I wouldn't use it. But until then, you gotta look at it as a glass half full since if everything seems half empty no-one would buy anything slightly clever.

Quote
better mechanical only solutions?

Such as? Seems to me the alternative is a combination lock, but those are easily picked and have failure modes all of their own. Plus it's a lot of dicking around, particularly in the dark. I can tell you that from experience :)

 

Offline edy

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2018, 03:45:08 am »
What about a bluetooth lock like this:

https://www.masterlock.com/bluetooth



It looks tougher and unlocks from your phone. I believe some will lock/unlock based on your proximity and whether you are walking towards or away from it. Thoughts? It's like $39 on Amazon. Seems to be half the cost and more rugged and offer the same benefits... although you need your phone with you, it has a "backup" system of buttons on the front to let you unlock it if you have no phone (direction keys you press some custom combination of them). I know it's a different feature set and convenience and use case, but I wonder if that can be a suitable and more secure substitute.

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Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2018, 03:54:15 am »
Maybe. I think I'd prefer keys to a phone, unless one had lots of such locks and then it could be a good idea.

I don't really see why this should be more secure (than the Fipilock equivalent, which isn't the one being crowdfunded). The only practical difference is bluetooth vs fingerprint - the actual locking gubbins should be equivalent, and I think the fingerprint is simpler than bluetooth (and possibly more secure since it's not broadcasting anything).

However, back to the crowdfunded one... part of the attraction is that it doesn't look like a traditional lock. If I wanted a BFO padlock I'd already have one :)

I realise my usage scenario may be a bit unique, and in other situation I would no doubt want something more appropriate.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2018, 04:40:35 am »
Oh god, a master lock! Oh hell no that's even worse! "Rugged" as a house of cards...

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Offline ebastler

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2018, 05:20:14 am »
My favorite usage example from their website is this one.
You don't even have to damage the flimsy lock to get in there:



Makes me totally confident that this lock is well thought out...  :palm:
 
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Offline edy

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2018, 08:50:38 am »
Oh god, a master lock! Oh hell no that's even worse! "Rugged" as a house of cards...


Now that was a funny video!
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Offline b_force

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2018, 10:27:37 am »
In fact, you are probably better buying 3-4 U-Locks with the same money... at least it will add more time and be more obvious someone is stealing your bike, in case it is a public area somebody may at least notice and stop them. And if the whole point of this is not to require keys, then get several COMBINATION locks with chains/cables if needed. Either way they would require heavier tools to cut than this FIPILOCK garbage toy:


Even in the Netherlands these aren't safe.  ;)
Any decent bolt cutter would make that a 2 minute job no problem.
This one has two locks, which is already good.
Never just put only a lock on your front wheel.
They just unscrew the front wheel and gone is your bike.

The suggested kickstarter lock is not even a joke anymore.
Looking at it already opens it basically.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2018, 10:39:21 am by b_force »
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Online blueskull

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2018, 04:26:48 am »


If I saw this and I were a thief, I would have added a new pin code lock and asked for 0.02 BTC for the code...
 

Online Bud

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #29 on: September 13, 2018, 03:46:47 am »
Cant the thief just take the saddle and ruin your day just for fun
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #30 on: September 13, 2018, 03:56:52 am »
Exactly!
Many moons ago, I friend of mine had a detachable faceplate automotive CD player/radio combo.

One day my friend returned to find both front seats slashed. Mind you, these were leather, heated, power seats.
It would have been cheaper to allow them to steal the radio.
 

Offline maggieyang0807

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2018, 07:46:07 pm »
The lock is operated by independent AI!!!!!!!

First, what is that?
Second, why is it not operated by a sensor and a controller?

Also, who out there in the world takes 60s to undo a standard padlock? Takes me around 2-3s. Who are these people who need a minute to do that?

Totally agree.
 

Online james_s

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 04:28:26 pm »
"Smart" locks are a solution looking for a problem. It's a Rube Goldberg contraption in place of a simple, inexpensive and effective technology that has been around for centuries. I would bet that I could consistently unlock a padlock with a key at least as quickly as any kind of smart lock could be unlocked, and I would bet a significant sum that the conventional padlock would be far more reliable in the long run. I have padlocks that have been out in the weather for ~20 years that still work perfectly.
 

Offline dunkemhigh

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 05:13:16 pm »
Quote
consistently unlock a padlock with a key

How many locks do you have? Do you walk around everywhere with a key for each of 'em? Do you label them so you know which of the many identical ones fit each lock or do you start counting seconds when it's found and actually in the lock?

Personally, I've managed to get down to three keys I carry around (and would prefer fewer) but the missus has so many she needs a handbag to carry them (at least, I assume that's what the bags for).

Mind, the way I reduce the number I have to carry is by leaving ones I won't use behind, and then tramping back to get it because I did want it after all. Kind of the same thing with credit cards - I much prefer just carrying the phone (which I'll use for other things so will have with me anyway) than half a dozen cards in a wallet that's either going to be nicked or make me look like I have lopsided tits when I put it in the jacket pocket.

Sure, this particular implementation of a smart lock isn't high security, but I think you're wrong to write off the principal. You'd be surprised at what people will give up for a simpler life too.
 

Online james_s

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2018, 05:34:47 am »
Only a few, I think I have two keys on my keyring for locks like that, amongst about 10 keys, and another keyring with keys to my cars. At the cabin we have 3 or 4 combination locks, those take a bit longer to open than one with a key but I don't have to carry keys for those around. An electronic lock would be useless there, the battery would very likely be dead every time nobody goes there for a few months. It's not as if padlock keys are heavy or bulky and if you have a lot of locks you can get locks that all use the same key like I have on the coin doors of my arcade machines.

Anyway if I want to open it frequently I use a lock with a key, if I want to be able to open it without carrying a key, or tell somebody else the code to get in, I use a combination lock. The advantages of simplicity and reliability these have over some kind of silly overpriced electronic lock far outweigh any convenience of being able to use a thumb print or whatever. I expect a lock to just work, whether I last touched it 5 minutes ago or 5 years ago. Whether it has been outside in sub-freezing weather or baking for hours a day in the hot summer sun. If I have to plug the thing in to charge it occasionally, or muck with firmware or apps or anything like that it's a non-starter.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2018, 04:35:32 pm »
Here's another joke that's gotten media attention claiming to be an "innovator". It solves one problem by providing a key backup but it's probably not a secure key (easy pickings...literally) and it looks to be PLASTIC so you could probably just kick it off. ::) https://benjilock.com
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Offline cdev

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2018, 12:58:47 am »
Many of the older U-locks can be opened with the back end of an old "Bic" ball point pen. So I dumped mine and now I use a really thick cable lock which is also much easier to fit around both wheels and whatever I am anchoring it to. The cable is wrapped in a lot of plastic and huge. It would be a major PITA for a thief to cut through.

My bike is also old and worthless looking.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online james_s

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Re: TRAVELOCK:The Ultimate Thieves Dream?
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2018, 04:18:20 pm »
My bike is also old and worthless looking.

That's my primary security method too. In combination with a cheap basic lock I've never had any issues.
 


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