Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 60809 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2016, 02:29:13 pm »
They responded to my tweet:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofotb

Quote
"Yes I have a very easy explanation for that, first of all that article is from Jan 2014 that more then 2 years ago, and second the technology withTriton is not the same, because we have not yet released the full technology data of Triton due to our patents, and what the article is saying is a theory we had when we first just had designed Triton, we have achieved a lot since then :) thank you for sharing and supporting Triton."

He seems to be under some misapprehension about how patents work. Once you file the patent you are protected, you are then free to publish anything you want.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:33:42 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2016, 02:31:54 pm »
That's a good start on why this won't work. There are several other reasons. For example: Human ventilation requires a relatively large volume of gas moving both in and out of the lungs.  Tidal volume at rest is 500ml as he says - and it will be a  larger volume with physical exertion - and the respiratory rate goes up with exertion. It's the minute ventilation (volume/breath x  breaths/minute) that matters.  Even if you could get a device to produce 35 mg of O2 per breath as he calculates - delivering that much O2 alone to the lungs will not be sufficient to sustain life.  The O2 needs to be part of a larger volume of gas to inflate the lungs and create the pressure differential at the alveoli to allow diffusion of the the O2 into the capillaries.  AND - you need to have a volume of gas in the lungs with a partial pressure of CO2 low enough to allow diffusion of CO2 out of the blood into the lung to be exhaled with respiration.

Always great to have expert technical input from our resident medical doctor!  :-+
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2016, 02:37:45 pm »
They responded to my tweet:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sofotb

Well, looks like I got trolled nicely by a fake twitter account! :-DD



« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 02:42:26 pm by EEVblog »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2016, 02:53:16 pm »
LOL 
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2016, 03:07:49 pm »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.

I think it is only intended to be used at low pressure, say, 100ft or 200ft max.
 

Offline mtdoc

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2016, 03:29:16 pm »
They only talk about oxygen, so they basically don't even have any idea of diving or high pressure physiology.

I think it is only intended to be used at low pressure, say, 100ft or 200ft max.

The pressure at 100 ft underwater is pretty high from a physiology standpoint.  As I mentioned above - even if you had a device that could produce the sufficient gas mixture (this never will) - it would need to be produced at a high enough pressure to inflate the lungs.  A person cannot reliably produce adequate negative inspiratory force (suction) at 10 feet under water to ventilate the lungs with gas at 1 atmosphere pressure.  Forget about 100 feet.

Maybe the Triton is planning to incorporate supercharged versions of the Airing's magic microblowers.. - oh  yeah  then again those can't even produce the 10 cm H2O pressure needed to treat sleep apnea..::)
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2016, 03:42:05 pm »
The pressure at 100 ft underwater is pretty high from a physiology standpoint.

Well, you are a doctor, I'm not, at least not the medical one.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2016, 03:51:09 pm »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract a large volume of nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or maybe some o2)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 04:22:15 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Online blueskull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2016, 04:24:40 pm »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or combination)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.

That's interesting. Being said, O2 has critical temperature way lower than room temperature, so if you put LO2 in a vessel, it will go supercritical as temperature rises.
At room temperature and a useful density, despite I do not have any data, I believe the pressure or supercritical O2 is quite high, at least way higher than 25MPa, otherwise people will not put oxygen air in cylinders, they will put supercritical oxygen instead, just like CO2 (at >31.1C).
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2016, 04:36:36 pm »
Liquid oxygen must be stored cryogenically, O2 cylinders contain gaseous oxygen. LO2 tanks are vacuum insulated and need constant pressure venting to prevent rupture. Its not a practical way to store small amounts of breathing O2.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2016, 05:01:02 pm »
Liquid oxygen must be stored cryogenically, O2 cylinders contain gaseous oxygen. LO2 tanks are vacuum insulated and need constant pressure venting to prevent rupture. Its not a practical way to store small amounts of breathing O2.

Liquid 02 was used in soviet rebreather units for 6+ hour dives.  The low temp was used to also condense the co2 out of the breathing loop.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2016, 05:14:29 pm »
They have the problem completely wrong

You can easily carry oxygen with you.

Liquid O2  1 liter bottle holds 1.1kg of oxygen.  According to the previous post you need 35mg per breath. 1 liter bottle is going to last a while.

So the problem is you actually need more volume to breath, both as a carrier to fill your lungs with o2, and as a medium to get rid of co2 from your body.

So their purposed system would be way more useful if it could primarily extract nitrogen from the water, rather than oxygen (or combination)......I think there is less nitrogen in water than oxygen though  :)

What could also be useful is if they reversed the membrane function to remove C02, and reuse the carrier while adding some O2. This would be a new type of re-breather.

Or a combination of the two above or whatever.

Point is they probably "solved" the wrong problem even in fantasy land.

That's interesting. Being said, O2 has critical temperature way lower than room temperature, so if you put LO2 in a vessel, it will go supercritical as temperature rises.
At room temperature and a useful density, despite I do not have any data, I believe the pressure or supercritical O2 is quite high, at least way higher than 25MPa, otherwise people will not put oxygen air in cylinders, they will put supercritical oxygen instead, just like CO2 (at >31.1C).

I didn't mean to suggest for long term storage, just for diving.  Typical small dewars can hold for a few days upto a week.

The main point was that they need way more volume of gas to fill the lungs and get rid of co2 (likely the harder problems), instead it seems they focused only on a small amount of oxygen
« Last Edit: March 23, 2016, 05:42:36 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2016, 05:41:07 pm »
I wonder if this has the potential to also extract other things, such as chlorine gas, bromine, or others from pool water?
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2016, 06:33:41 pm »
They blocked me on Youtube, I knew this is possible, but what's new for me is that IGG has now also such a function. If I try to write a comment the response is "An unknown error has occurred."
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline PeterL

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2016, 09:41:00 pm »
Swimming around in salty water with a modified Lithium Ion battery in your mouth.

What could possibly go wrong...
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2016, 10:01:34 pm »
Forget the pure implausibility of producing enough breathable oxygen for a moment via whatever magical compressors the art-concept design might have...
They describe a "Microporous membrane" to actually extract the gases from water.  That means that the "Micropourous membrane" must remain open to O2 molecules, yet block everything else.  How long do you think it would take for that nonsense to clog up in anything but pure, distilled water?

Oh, I see, they place a "Water Filter" around the membrane... again, a filter that will will allow only water and O2 to pass, but not get clogged from, oh, say, plankton?

Someone needs to make a new website "IndieNoGo.org" to vet these absurd ideas, since IGG et al block and remove any negative comments.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #41 on: March 24, 2016, 12:33:43 am »
One issue with squeezing oxygen through a filter to extract it from water is going to be that O2 molecules are larger than water molecules. You're going to need something fancier than micropores - a hydrophobic membrane, perhaps. http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/1068

Assuming you could perfectly extract dissolved oxygen from seawater, you would need to process 51 gallons of water per minute to supply one diver with oxygen. This is about 25 times the flow rate of an average kitchen faucet. You could, presumably, also use this device for jet propulsion.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #42 on: March 24, 2016, 01:19:56 am »
 
One issue with squeezing oxygen through a filter to extract it from water is going to be that O2 molecules are larger than water molecules. You're going to need something fancier than micropores - a hydrophobic membrane, perhaps. http://www.techbriefs.com/component/content/article/1068

Assuming you could perfectly extract dissolved oxygen from seawater, you would need to process 51 gallons of water per minute to supply one diver with oxygen. This is about 25 times the flow rate of an average kitchen faucet. You could, presumably, also use this device for jet propulsion.

They are likely using a contactor. Used for degassing fluids and stuff.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #43 on: March 24, 2016, 02:01:22 am »
Many of these campaigns seem to have one thing in common... A new "Super Efficient, Super Capacity Battery", typically at least 30x better then anything else out there to date.

If it were me, and I did have that, that would be my product; not a gizmo to use it in.
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #44 on: March 24, 2016, 02:25:57 am »
Many of these campaigns seem to have one thing in common... A new "Super Efficient, Super Capacity Battery", typically at least 30x better then anything else out there to date.

If it were me, and I did have that, that would be my product; not a gizmo to use it in.

Yes totally. But as a note, I don't think they have actually said they were going to develop the battery.  Everything (I think) says next-gen battery........  ::)
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #45 on: March 24, 2016, 09:35:06 am »
 This super battery is the next project for Bob and Probes.....


 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2016, 11:49:44 pm »
Quote
because we have not yet released the full technology data of Triton due to our patents
They probably have added a tube so the battery can safely operate  ;D
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2016, 12:48:43 am »
Someone needs to make a new website "IndieNoGo.org" to vet these absurd ideas, since IGG et al block and remove any negative comments.

This would not help, remember Ritot, many people wrote in the comments why it is not feasible, they gave up deleting the comments after they recognized that negative comments don't stop the money flow. The comment section was and still is full of such "negative" comments and during InDemand they still got $1000/day.
Btw, Triton refunded my $1 (I didn't asked for it) and deleted all of my comments always almost immediately, same for the Youtube comments, they monitor all comments 7x24h.
The best thing is that you have to logoff to see if a comment is deleted, as long as your logged in you will always see your comments and that's true for IGG and YT.

IMO IGG is responsible because the do nothing, even after the got multiple times informed about a scampaign. They will do absolutely nothing because they just want the $$$.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 12:53:33 am by Kalidor »
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #48 on: March 29, 2016, 02:44:13 am »
Some begin to speculate if this device does electrolysis, here my two cents to this.

They say it runs for 45min you need about 25g of O2 for 45min.
To produce 1kg O2 with electrolysis you need 17.73 MJ. For 25g you need 443.3 kJ which is 123.1 Wh.
The best rechargeable lithium batteries have a energy density of 0.87 MJ/kg.
This results in a battery that weights 510g without any casing.
In addition to that electrolysis would also produce chlorine gas at the anode (where the O2 is) if you are diving in sea/saline water.
Not to say that you need a re-breather and a CO2 filter.

This is a 120Wh Lithium battery ($200, 780g)
http://www.amazon.com/8000mAh-Li-ion-Rechargeable-Battery-Camera/dp/B00J7LQS2W
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual.
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2016, 03:28:00 am »
Directly from Jeabyun Yeon BE page:
"The micro compressor operates through micro battery. The micro battery is a next-generation technology with a size 30 times smaller than current battery that can quickly charge 1,000 times faster."
https://www.behance.net/gallery/13434535/TRITON

Why battery? They could license technology from uBeam and power it using an ultrasound beam from base stations on the shore.
Drain the swamp.
 


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