Author Topic: Triton Artificial Gills  (Read 61368 times)

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Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #125 on: April 04, 2016, 10:23:35 am »
Yes, the breathing time of the spare air units is less, however, the Triton system is strapped to your face, whereas a tank doesn't need to be.  The weight of the tank is a non-issue because in water, you don't feel the weight... and size isn't an issue unless you're in tight places, which would be absolutely insanity with a system like Triton (even if it worked).  So what is the benefit of Triton over a compressed air system?  With air, you can literally just connect it to your existing air tank and fill it.  Around here, an 80-120 cu-ft tank costs $5 to fill, and there are lots of places to choose from anywhere that you might want to go diving. 

Suppose the thing somehow works... then buy in cost (I doubt someone could purchase a complete SCUBA setup for $299 with similar dive time), size, 'coolness factor'.   

For LO2... how would they get around the storage/hazard issue?  Maybe I am wrong but it seems that is a pretty extreme use case for LO2... being in the sun, being bounced around on a boat, being in water.  That seems to be pretty huge temperature swings and LO2 is problematic (at best) to store/transport even in much tighter controlled conditions, no? 

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.

Actually getting the lo2 is a whole other problem and I doubt you could do it at a reasonable cost except for local pickup from supply houses.

As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?  They talk about some sort of chemical oxygen generation and liquid oxygen "working in conjunction with gills" (whatever that means) - so at best it's quite a complicated setup compared to just taking a tank that just needs a regulator and that's it. 

So even if it could work, the only benefit they are offering is a smaller size, but at (significantly) higher cost and less reliability and much more dangerous.  I just can't understand the backers mindset.
Supposed the lno2 system actually works (and supposed it is what their system is) at the price and form-factor they're advertising. Then for the LNO2 system it would have some pretty major advantages for a consumer. Cost is the big one, compactness, coolness, shippable consumables... are all factors generally important to consumer. 


Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 10:25:32 am by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline altaic

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #126 on: April 04, 2016, 11:31:53 am »
Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.

Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #127 on: April 04, 2016, 12:15:49 pm »
Also..why not just make a more advanced snorkel? Were talking 15ft..  Float on top of water, possibly pump/compressor, some valves, run a line or two down.....swim for hours or more... and probably could be done for $299.

Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.

I see them. They do look dorky but much more functional I think. Someone could probably do a smaller version and get the price down... right now in the thousands
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #128 on: April 04, 2016, 08:37:47 pm »
ThunderfOOt to the rescue!


But his video is out of date the moment it was posted. Needs another one to keep up with the new liquid oxygen BS  :bullshit:
 
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Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #129 on: April 04, 2016, 09:23:58 pm »
This scheme is very clever: never one single customer complaint or return.





The customer drowned at the first tryout.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #130 on: April 05, 2016, 12:17:03 am »

Side note: I read an article somewhere, I believe it was recent news, that Kickstarter was hiring an in-house "project feasibility guru", whose job was to assess whether a project was a scam or based on junk science or claims.

I believe it was in response to a Kickstarter project for "washing machine balls", which was an old scam from decades who where plastic balls put into your washing machine were claimed to change the molecules of water and create hydrogen peroxide, eliminating the need for detergent.

I read the comments and they were pathetically funny... dumb backers saying "I have been using these for a few weeks and I don't think they work.  I have friends and coworkers saying I smell and when I tell them I wash clothes regularly, they ask if I am using detergent!".

In this case, I can't see how IGG doesn't have liability.  They were notified that the project was essentially a scam, and they clearly got in touch with Triton and told them they can't keep it up in the manner they did.  So they've demonstrated an interest and effort in filtering out outright scams.  However, it's a fact that LOx can't work if only due to it not existing above -118c, and surely IGG has seen this in the comments and been notified of it by users.  Yet they continue to allow the project to continue.

To me, that's tantamount to willful participation in the scam.

IGG has absolutely no reason to vet any of these projects, even if they KNOW they are 100% scams.  As long as contributions pour in, IGG takes their cut.  That is why IGG has the "Flexible funding" model, where the campaigner gets the cash whether or not the campaign is "Successful".  IGG can only take their cut, if they disburse funds.  Once that happens, it is between the backer and the campaigner. 

Even if you bring lawsuits, IGG is absolved from any and all wrongdoing.  They are the ones that are really the scammers.  That is why IGG takes (Even begs for) projects that KS removes; they are living off of PT Barnums "One A Minute" and laughing all the way to the bank.

KS at least tries to prevent outright fraud, but even so, people need to really think about what they are considering backing.  If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #131 on: April 05, 2016, 12:41:10 am »
If IGG keeps this up no-one will take any of their cases serious anymore: ergo out of business.
It is in their own best interest to at least pretend to care  ;)
 

Offline meeder

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #132 on: April 05, 2016, 03:07:59 am »
 

Online Nerull

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #133 on: April 05, 2016, 05:03:35 am »
As for LNO2, you can already get your air tanks filled with "Nitrox" for diving... so that goes back to me not really seeing what Triton's system supposedly brings to the table?

Note that nitrox ix diving terminology for a standard breathing mix of nitrogen and oxygen gasses, which is a very different thing than nitrous oxide.
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #134 on: April 05, 2016, 05:14:33 am »
additionally, I think breathing time in open loop with nitrox mix at 15 feet is approximately the same as 100% o2
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #135 on: April 05, 2016, 05:47:11 am »
They gave up and refunded everybody:

https://gearjunkie.com/refunded-triton-artificial-gills-campaign-update

Nope, they just changed their tune.  They got called out on their first scam, canceled the campaign, and started a new, equally ridiculous one in its place.
 

Offline mswhin63

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #136 on: April 05, 2016, 10:28:15 am »
Already at $260,000.
.
 

Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #137 on: April 05, 2016, 06:08:56 pm »
Whatever it is, Gills, Re-breather, LOx, or an air tank it's all  :bullshit:  :bullshit:  :bullshit:

In the last video he sits in a pool for 12 min 45 sec and breaths 96times!!  (/watch?v=QrT_KtdGFa8)
Now look how much bigger spare air is http://spareair.com/product/models.html
and in the specs "Surface Breaths: 57 based on 1.6L per breath, max pressure 200 bar"
The only cool thing in this video is the first song.  >:D

57 breaths
  |O339 breaths |O
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 06:27:48 pm by Kalidor »
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Offline janekm

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #138 on: April 05, 2016, 06:42:33 pm »
I spot some parallels to uBeam:

Quote
The funding will be utilized for engineering and product manufacturing. We have found the perfect manufacturer, who has great marine product experience, to produce Triton to the exacting standards we demand.



Career opportunity:
We are looking for a technician in marine technology that can start working with us in fall 2016, please if you feel like you are the right person for the job or if you know anybody that is perfect for this job let us know.

That will be make for some interesting job interviews I suspect!
"So, you haven't done any engineering yet and you expect me to engineer a regulator to take liquid oxygen to breathable pressure in a 10cm^3 volume, ready for manufacture one month from now?"
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #139 on: April 05, 2016, 08:07:10 pm »
I spot some parallels to uBeam:
Quote
The funding will be utilized for engineering and product manufacturing. We have found the perfect manufacturer, who has great marine product experience, to produce Triton to the exacting standards we demand.

Translation: We haven't actually designed this thing yet, but we are pretty confident it will work, because, well, people gave us money for it.
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #140 on: April 05, 2016, 08:58:18 pm »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)
 
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Offline Kalidor

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #141 on: April 05, 2016, 10:33:31 pm »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)

Just the fact that the latest comment is 11h old shows that all comment sections (IGG + YT) are - say "moderated".
They accepted my $1 until I wrote a comment, refunded comment deleted.
Maybe I make a $1000 donation and write a comment and then cancel it before the campaign ends. You can do that on your admin page.
To see if your comment was deleted you have to logoff from IGG, same for YT.

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Offline BradC

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #142 on: April 05, 2016, 10:42:48 pm »
Those have existed for a long time-- at least since the 80s. Basically an inner tube with a dive flag sticking up, a compressor, and a long hose with a regulator attached. They used to be pretty huge, with a gas powered compressor and such, but they're probably small and electric now. Maybe even solar powered. *shrug* Definitely not the James Bond kind of awesome this company is trying to claim.

I have one. You *could* solar power it, but the average consumption is still in the order of 200w (roughly 16A @ 12v). Still, nicer than a 3hp Honda.
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2016, 02:51:18 pm »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream.  Also useful for generating dry nitrogen for desiccator cabinets, high power air dielectric coax cables, or Hakkos swanky nitrogen shielded soldering iron http://www.hakko.com/english/n2system/connection-method.html I believe even a hot N2 reflow system is available too.

So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+
 

Online ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2016, 03:06:05 pm »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream. 

The link is the portable canister for an oxygen concentration system, it is not the concentrator itself. Internally it has to have a dewar or highly insulated canister to hold the lox.

Also useful for generating dry nitrogen for desiccator cabinets, high power air dielectric coax cables, or Hakkos swanky nitrogen shielded soldering iron http://www.hakko.com/english/n2system/connection-method.html I believe even a hot N2 reflow system is available too.

So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+

Didn't know this.  I need a desiccator cabinet.... i have to look into it. Thanks  :-+
« Last Edit: April 06, 2016, 03:14:41 pm by ChunkyPastaSauce »
 

Offline Khendrask

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2016, 09:10:33 pm »
They aren't accepting low donations now on the "New" campaign.  Donate a dollar, and IGG refunds it in about a minute.  Long enough time to post a comment though :)

Just the fact that the latest comment is 11h old shows that all comment sections (IGG + YT) are - say "moderated".
They accepted my $1 until I wrote a comment, refunded comment deleted.
Maybe I make a $1000 donation and write a comment and then cancel it before the campaign ends. You can do that on your admin page.
To see if your comment was deleted you have to logoff from IGG, same for YT.

I see that, If I log off, the comment vanishes.  If I log back in, it shows up again, but I assume only for me.
 

Offline timb

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2016, 10:22:26 pm »

Youve probably seen people walking around with lo2, something like this Lo2 Portable Storage. This is a medical device with additional regulating components but has a similar storage volume they would need and has a storage time of 9 hours. Being a medical device, it costs $1,000 but the dewar inside of it probably costs a fraction of that (but I dont really know).

Lo2, your always going to end up less than when you start (unless you somehow keep the temps way down with another cryo fluid or device), but you can get the boil off rate fairly low with good insulation and some pressure; you'd have to bring more than you're going to use and you'd probably have to use it somewhat quickly but it can be done.


Those are oxygen concentrators, not LO2 dewars, even the headline on the page is "Oxygen Concentrators"  They use dual pressure swing adsorption canisters, one to soak up nitrogen leaving oxygen rich air for the patient while the other canister regenerates, venting the nitrogen-rich stream. 

The link is the portable canister for an oxygen concentration system, it is not the concentrator itself. Internally it has to have a dewar or highly insulated canister to hold the lox.

I'm pretty sure there is no LO2 in these things. Otherwise it would be pretty dangerous for patients to travel with them in planes and such.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic; e.g., Cheez Whiz, Hot Dogs and RF.
 

Offline Kilrah

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2016, 10:28:59 pm »
Quote
LOX capacity: 0.9 lb (0,41 kg)

As to planes - you just don't travel by plane if you need to use one of those.
 

Online edavid

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #148 on: April 07, 2016, 01:36:30 am »
So old ones could potentially be usable to hobbiests.  :-+

There is already quite a bit of demand for used medical oxygen concentrators from people who use them for torch setups, e.g. for glass work.
 

Offline janekm

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Re: Triton Artificial Gills
« Reply #149 on: April 07, 2016, 02:03:37 am »
Quote
LOX capacity: 0.9 lb (0,41 kg)

As to planes - you just don't travel by plane if you need to use one of those.

For a moment I thought you were talking about the Triton, and was ready to post:

Quote
Why fly when you can swim there!
 


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