Author Topic: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment  (Read 16881 times)

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Offline HowardlongTopic starter

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Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« on: November 11, 2015, 05:58:32 pm »
Top of the tech news on the BBC as I write http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/34787404
 

Offline snoopy

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2015, 11:20:54 pm »
Sounds like a ponzi scheme.
 

Offline HowardlongTopic starter

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2015, 09:17:30 pm »
 

Online Bud

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2015, 04:35:11 am »
Interesting development - Kickstarter hired an investigative journalist to look into what happened...

https://medium.com/@meharris/an-unusual-commission-f5171a156a05#.jcrwjpfl5
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Offline bxh

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2016, 05:32:40 pm »
...and she's gone.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/18/zano_drone_titsup/

It's quite unfortunate, as a UAV enthusiast I was really looking forward to seeing more tastefully used mini quadcopters.

On a separate note, what's up with naming of the URL?
 

Offline HowardlongTopic starter

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2016, 07:29:27 pm »
...and she's gone.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/11/18/zano_drone_titsup/

It's quite unfortunate, as a UAV enthusiast I was really looking forward to seeing more tastefully used mini quadcopters.

On a separate note, what's up with naming of the URL?

You'll have to speak to El Reg themselves if you don't like the URL.
 

Offline bxh

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2016, 01:04:16 am »
Just amused to see them use such a description somewhere so visible  :-+
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2016, 02:47:15 am »
When something goes "tits up", it means it is dead.  (If it were a lady, her breasts would be pointing skywards as she lay there dead.  "Belly up" is the gender neutral version)
 

Offline bxh

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2016, 06:19:43 pm »
Of course it does, it's just a little more colloquial than what I'd expect  :P
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2016, 06:48:24 pm »
Personally I find these collapses to be a very good, and very healthy thing.

People love to bag on "evil investors" for their "greed," but lo, for with Kickstarter every one can learn the joys of making poor investments and losing their money. In a good world, they would heed the lesson and vet the idea thoroughly before investing. Unfortunately in the real world, people will whine about their poor decisions to toss money into a black hole on the basis of "it looked cool," and then demand more government intervention to protect them from themselves.
 

Offline Delta

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2016, 08:50:42 pm »
Of course it does, it's just a little more colloquial than what I'd expect  :P

Sorry, I was on the mobile site and thus couldn't see your country flag - thought you might not be familiar with the Queen's slang!  :D
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2016, 09:01:45 pm »
Interesting development - Kickstarter hired an investigative journalist to look into what happened...
https://medium.com/@meharris/an-unusual-commission-f5171a156a05#.jcrwjpfl5

That's the most interesting part of this.
 

Offline HowardlongTopic starter

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2016, 11:08:54 pm »
Just amused to see them use such a description somewhere so visible  :-+

That's just the way El Reg is, full of running "in" jokes a bit like a nerd version of Private Eye, and I am sure other similar journals across the globe. "Titsup" is quite often used and I've always assumed is a deliberately lame attempt to get through corp firewalls as a joke in itself.
 

Offline sswift

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2016, 08:19:41 pm »
The investigator has posted the results of his investigation, and it is a long, long read:
https://medium.com/@meharris/how-zano-raised-millions-on-kickstarter-and-left-backers-with-nearly-nothing-85c0abe4a6cb#.9z2hne8wb

I've only been skimming it, but aside from a photo of a room full of boxes for new Apple computers and talk of people driving around in BMWs, this bit leapt out at me:

Quote
A bigger battery could increase flight time, and Reedman told me he was trying to boost the battery size from 750 mAh (milliampere hours, a measurement of discharge capacity over time) to 1,000 or 1,100 mAh before he left Zano. A review of comparable batteries designed for drones (from makers and third-party replacements) finds even custom-fit modules would weigh at least 30g for 1,000 mAh, seemingly impractical without further design changes.

His solution at the time was to send back the original propellers for larger ones. However, says Reedman, “As far as [the Chinese supplier] was concerned, the propellers did work so therefore are not faulty and would not accept returns.” Torquing was left having paid for tens of thousands of propellers it could not use.

What idiot orders tens of thousands of propellers for a design which hasn't been finalized? 

Also, checking prices on Aliexpress, I estimate that enough propellers for 15K drones should only have cost them around $5K.  So they're really scraping the bottom of the barrel here for excuses on where $3.3M went.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2016, 08:48:25 pm by sswift »
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2016, 08:46:00 pm »
They also bought at least 13920 450mAH and 2000 700mAH batteries, 11000 USB leads,  3472 USB chargers, 1200 cameras.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2016, 10:54:54 pm »
So they bought enough parts to build thousands of units before finalizing what parts would actually be needed in said units.  No wonder they went under...

Though to be honest, if they were stupid enough to do that, then even if they hadn't pre-purchased $xxx,xxx worth of useless parts, what hope could they possibly have had to get a working unit anyway?  They would have just screwed up somewhere else.
 

Offline josem

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2016, 08:26:32 pm »

I've only been skimming it, but aside from a photo of a room full of boxes for new Apple computers and talk of people driving around in BMWs, this bit leapt out at me:

In the Statement of affairs part if the article he mentions the computers and many of the cars were still under lease so they haven't even really paid for those, just rented.

Why isn't there are a crowdfunding service like Kickstarter but with some sort of escrow menchanism where all money isn't given upfront - sounds like the crux of these issues - but contigent on the company meeting actual goals?

The article mentions Kickstarter took 5%, or roughly US$165,751 just for hosting the project (payment processing fees were separate). Surely they could afford to supply some management for these hyper successful projects.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 08:55:09 pm by josem »
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2016, 09:11:19 pm »
I'm going to start looking on eBay for good deals on large quantities of quadrotor propellers, 450 mAh batteries, etc.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2016, 10:48:50 pm »
I'm going to start looking on eBay for good deals on large quantities of quadrotor propellers, 450 mAh batteries, etc.

Why wait?

http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/timed/bpi-associates/catalogue-id-bp10865
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online wraper

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2016, 10:51:33 pm »
Why isn't there are a crowdfunding service like Kickstarter but with some sort of escrow menchanism where all money isn't given upfront - sounds like the crux of these issues - but contigent on the company meeting actual goals?
Because it makes no sense. If you have a money to develop and produce, most likely you don't need any crowdfunding at all.
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2016, 11:04:29 pm »
Why isn't there are a crowdfunding service like Kickstarter but with some sort of escrow menchanism where all money isn't given upfront - sounds like the crux of these issues - but contigent on the company meeting actual goals?
Because it makes no sense. If you have a money to develop and produce, most likely you don't need any crowdfunding at all.

I think he's asking why Kickstarter doesn't give the money to the devs in installments, with proof of activity and progress, etc, rather than just writing them a 7 figure check and wiping their hands clean.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2016, 11:09:41 pm »
I think he's asking why Kickstarter doesn't give the money to the devs in installments, with proof of activity and progress, etc, rather than just writing them a 7 figure check and wiping their hands clean.
This could potentially save only part of the backers money. Yet would increase the amount of the failed projects too because would make the life much harder. Also, it would require significant effort (expenses) from the kickstarter's side too.
EDIT: sure they should do initial checks of highly funded projects but giving the money partially won't work IMO.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2016, 11:13:07 pm by wraper »
 

Offline JimRemington

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2016, 11:28:44 pm »
I'm going to start looking on eBay for good deals on large quantities of quadrotor propellers, 450 mAh batteries, etc.

Why wait?

http://www.bidspotter.co.uk/en-gb/auction-catalogues/timed/bpi-associates/catalogue-id-bp10865

HOLY COW! Lot 70 is for 48,000 plastic propellers, with the current bid of 5 GBP! I'll be watching this closely...
 

Offline tom66

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2016, 11:41:11 pm »
Wonder if they'll sell any of the prototypes I see lying around in photos? Or are those off limits for liquidation for some reason?
 

Offline HowardlongTopic starter

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Re: Zano, another Kickstarter disappointment
« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2016, 06:57:13 pm »
Interesting that they were using PIC32MZ EC in the design, 18k units for grabs (brave indeed considering the silicon bugs on the EC devices and the current half finished Microchip Harmony software framework).

They also had their own mass production programmer to program those chips direct from off the reel. Maybe those programmers are cheaper than I'd expect, but that's exactly the kind of thing you'd want to farm out rather than do it yourself. At that volume you'd be getting them programmed for pennies a unit from a third party.

Rather more startling are the 4,500 Lantronix xPico Wifi AP and server interfaces, a remarkable choice (not in a good way) considering the retail price of the Zano, my estimate would be they'd be paying $20/unit at that volume. Those things are priced for small runs, certainly <1ku, where it's not worth the effort of getting the stack working yourself... or maybe they were a victim of Microchip's half built Harmony framework.

Disregarding the high price of the Wifi modules, technically Lantronix as a solution has never been great if you're after sustained high bandwidth such as that required full HD or even standard def video, it's difficult to see how this would ever fly in the way they advertised (pun intended). They might support 802.11 b/g/n but you're  lucky to get much more than 10 Mbps out of them on a good day without the vagaries of multipath and the inevitable retries on a continually moving link.

From what I've read of the article/report, it does seem like the main protagonist lives inside some kind of self-perpetuating bubble of bullshit of his own making.
 


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