Author Topic: Post on the upcoming next Beta  (Read 17437 times)

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Offline slowertech

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2015, 03:39:12 AM »
Now that DipTrace Beta 2.9 has been out for 6 weeks, what are other users opinions on this?

I use a program to make small panels of PCBs so I can use up all the space in the 10cmX10cm option from DirtyPCBs, the files that DipTrace outputs have always given me problems. This beta is the first version of DipTrace where I never have a problem with the files it outputs.

I love the hotkey settings.
The font is prettier.

That is all I have right now.
 

Offline john_p_wi

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2015, 05:11:42 AM »
Been using it for several weeks.  Although there has been some change in the library management over 2.4, it is still very clumsy to use.  Developing a library of considerable size of not-popular components (think large through hole components used in vacuum tube amps) can be and still is extremely time consuming and frustrating.  It is time consuming and redundant building patterns then components then updating schematics then pcb, there is no real easy way for forward propagation of changed components.  Out of all of the complaints, the library and component development / management is the biggest of mine.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2015, 09:25:44 AM »
Been using it for several weeks.  Although there has been some change in the library management over 2.4, it is still very clumsy to use.  Developing a library of considerable size of not-popular components (think large through hole components used in vacuum tube amps) can be and still is extremely time consuming and frustrating.  It is time consuming and redundant building patterns then components then updating schematics then pcb, there is no real easy way for forward propagation of changed components.  Out of all of the complaints, the library and component development / management is the biggest of mine.

Mine too. It's amateurish, at best. That's why it's so laughable that they're putting all of this time into more advanced features. For who? For what it is, it's not bad, and if they fix some of the basic functionality I'll surely upgrade because I think they're interface is possibly the best out there...SO easy to do everything...but they need to stop screwing around, grow up, and fix all of the boring stuff that real engineers need.
 

Online sleemanj

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2015, 09:39:54 AM »
Been using it for several weeks.  Although there has been some change in the library management over 2.4, it is still very clumsy to use.

How would you improve it?  I think the rules they have are correct personally...

Component and Pattern should be and is separate, that's just sensible, multiple components use the same pattern.
The pattern of a component, should be and is tied to the version of the pattern it was when it was assigned to the component unless you specifically update it, otherwise you might have unintended changes creep in to older designs when you edit a patten in the future.
The component in the schematic should and is similarly be tied to the version of the component when it was inserted into the schematic unless you specifically update it, otherwise unintended changes creep in.
Updating the PCB from the Schematic should and does update the components with patterns as currently attached into the schematic only when you update from the schematic, again, no unintended changes into older work.

Think of it as your components/patterns in the schematic/pcb being a specific version of the component/pattern in your library, not as just whatever the latest one is.

Yes it can make for some annoying grunt work if you need to change a pattern, but there is the option to update all of that type of component etc, so it's not too bad.

And it also means that your schematic and pcb files are portable without needing the libraries.

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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2015, 09:46:35 AM »
It's a management nightmare. When you look at a PCB, how on earth are you supposed to know just exactly what components where used to create it? If I make an update to a library, and then start adding components to a PCB, I can easily end up with components, from the same library, that are different. It's complete insanity.

There are a lot of us that have been asking, numerous times, for some specific features that will help us manage our libraries in some sort of sensible way. "Sorry, we're working 100% on differential pairs."

« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 09:48:30 AM by John Coloccia »
 

Online sleemanj

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2015, 09:50:32 AM »
It's a management nightmare. When you look at a PCB, how on earth are you supposed to know just exactly what components where used to create it? If I make an update to a library, and then start adding components to a PCB, I can easily end up with components, from the same library, that are different. It's complete insanity.

But imagine the alternative, that you or a colleague comes along and edits a component/pattern in the library which you used in a design 12 months ago, come the day you open up your design and don't notice that your component/pattern has changed on your previously fine design.  Whoops!

Perhaps some sort of indicator is needed to alert you that there are "Updated Components/Patterns In Libraries" and give you the option to pull them in.

But doing it automatically... bad bad idea IMHO.
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2015, 09:56:11 AM »
It's a management nightmare. When you look at a PCB, how on earth are you supposed to know just exactly what components where used to create it? If I make an update to a library, and then start adding components to a PCB, I can easily end up with components, from the same library, that are different. It's complete insanity.

But imagine the alternative, that you or a colleague comes along and edits a component/pattern in the library which you used in a design 12 months ago, come the day you open up your design and don't notice that your component/pattern has changed on your previously fine design.  Whoops!

Perhaps some sort of indicator is needed to alert you that there are "Updated Components/Patterns In Libraries" and give you the option to pull them in.

But doing it automatically... bad bad idea IMHO.

The right solution is that the components/patterns/whatever are linked via relative path names. Now, when I download a project (or start a new project, or whatever), I am linked to the version of the library that I want to use, and those links are strong. When I change something, it propagates, or at least CAN easily propagate. It needs to be insensitive to the name of the library file....the library name is defined IN the library file, so I can switch to a different file (but the same library) if I want to. All of this is completely missing from Diptrace. Information is duplicated everywhere, and there's not even anyway of checking if what you have matches what's actually in the library. Not a warning...not a method of checking...nothing. It really is pretty crazy.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2015, 10:01:28 AM »
There's also no method to attach multiple patterns to the same component. Often times, I just want to drop a transistor on my schematic, and I'll figure out exactly which one later. Oh, careful careful...when you select the actual transistor you want, if the pins are numbered differently, it will screw up your schematic, and you CAN'T number the component pins the same if the patterns are different. Why? Because the component pin number IS the pattern pin connection whether you like it or not. Why can't I just drop a stinking transistor on my schematic, and then choose from a number of specific patterns sometime later? Again, it's crazy. I shouldn't have to completely rewire dozens of components (very error prone) just because I want to switch from one JFet to another.

They'll eventually work this stuff out and I'll eventually upgrade, but they need to fix this stuff before they get another dime.

Don't even get me started on their grid/precision issues. They also have major issues importing board outlines. It comes in at some random point and can't be moved/realigned to a precise location. Their only solution is to change the board origin to match a point on the board I just sucked in. What about all the components/traces/pours etc that I spent days laying out and routing. I have to make a small change to the board outline, I suck it back in from my CAD program, and what? I just have to lay everything out again?

What about transparency between layers? Just try and do a 4 layer board. It's a royal PITA.

There's no reason for it other than stuff like this is probably kind of boring and not very interesting, and they'd rather spend time working on fun stuff, but all this boring stuff is very important if you want to be taken seriously. That said, I'll continue to use it because it's relatively cheap and it works very well for what I need right now (and probably for most hobbyists too), but I'm constantly on the lookout for new software packages.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 10:22:04 AM by John Coloccia »
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2015, 12:02:05 PM »
Using the new keyboard shortcuts, has anyone been able to set a single key to swap between imperial & metric units (& vice versa)?

I did ask for this early on in the DipTrace Forums ............... but it appears that it might have been missed.

At least I can now activate the "measure" tool with just one key press.
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Offline john_p_wi

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2015, 02:11:08 PM »

But imagine the alternative, that you or a colleague comes along and edits a component/pattern in the library which you used in a design 12 months ago, come the day you open up your design and don't notice that your component/pattern has changed on your previously fine design.  Whoops!


A much more realistic scenario is this:  you have 10 or 15 pcbs in various stages of development.  You order a proto pcb of one of the 10 or 15 designs and realize that the pattern / component of part "A" is wrong.  This part is used in numerous pcb designs and in numerous locations, but you don't have a quick way to determine exactly which boards.  Therefore,  it is absolutely ridiculous to NOT be able to update the part in your "master" library and have it automatically update any pcb when it is opened.  There is no provision for forward propagation on a fundamental issue such as this.  The result is that it is a manual operation, not autonomous, which will lead to the chance of many more errors.

IF the part has changed (added a pin or other) simply have it highlighted on the pcb / schematic / where ever if that is your concern.

Other missing simple features beyond the library debacle that are a pain in the ass, board outlines, copper pour outlines, floating board origins, why can't you just draw a circle?  Why is it always an ellipse that you have four data points to define?  Why no "silk screen eraser" on the PCB?  Sometimes the patterns come in funny and need to be "cleaned" up - or there is silk over a pad that needs to be removed?  Where is the component "align" on the pcb?  Hey, I have OCD and like things in order if possible.  Why do we need to continually enter the same file names and hints for patterns and components - redundancy is a time killer... Why is there no font size for pattern text (you have to drag to resize)....  and on and on.  I agree, they need to finish the core program before they add too much more lipstick to a pig.

In all it could be a great program, it just needs refinement - it is not ready for daily driving yet and as I said before at times it is just "clumsy".  I started driving it back at 2.3, honestly besides some GUI work for the libraries there has not been a lot to show for 2 years of subsequent development.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2015, 02:18:18 PM by john_p_wi »
 

Online sleemanj

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2015, 02:26:42 PM »
Using the new keyboard shortcuts, has anyone been able to set a single key to swap between imperial & metric units (& vice versa)?

I did ask for this early on in the DipTrace Forums ............... but it appears that it might have been missed.


I seem to remember that they have it on the roadmap, but it wasn't done yet because they want to do it as a complete solution whereby you can switch units using the hotkey while looking in any dialog/window and have that interface refresh with the new units on the fly (currently as you know if you are in a dialog and want to change units, close dialog, change units, open dialog...)
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Offline unitedatoms

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2015, 03:04:19 PM »
It is irrelevant to this thread, but I will complain. I have updated my layout from schematics and exported to Geber. The net classes were lost! Too late for me, when I received the physical boards from PCB house.

What is wrong with custom trace widths outside set net classes to be lost on "save" ? I have real trouble now with my PCBs batch.
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Online sleemanj

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2015, 03:11:29 PM »
It is irrelevant to this thread, but I will complain. I have updated my layout from schematics and exported to Geber. The net classes were lost!

Did you change the net classes in the the pcb without back-annotating?  If in the PCB, then unless you back-annotated them to the schematic, the update from the schematic to the PCB would over-write them I expect - same as adding a component in the PCB which isn't in the schematic and then updating from the schematic, component goes away.

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Offline envisionelec

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #38 on: October 26, 2015, 01:17:58 PM »
There's also no method to attach multiple patterns to the same component. Often times, I just want to drop a transistor on my schematic, and I'll figure out exactly which one later. Oh, careful careful...when you select the actual transistor you want, if the pins are numbered differently, it will screw up your schematic, and you CAN'T number the component pins the same if the patterns are different. Why? Because the component pin number IS the pattern pin connection whether you like it or not. Why can't I just drop a stinking transistor on my schematic, and then choose from a number of specific patterns sometime later? Again, it's crazy. I shouldn't have to completely rewire dozens of components (very error prone) just because I want to switch from one JFet to another.

They'll eventually work this stuff out and I'll eventually upgrade, but they need to fix this stuff before they get another dime.

Don't even get me started on their grid/precision issues. They also have major issues importing board outlines. It comes in at some random point and can't be moved/realigned to a precise location. Their only solution is to change the board origin to match a point on the board I just sucked in. What about all the components/traces/pours etc that I spent days laying out and routing. I have to make a small change to the board outline, I suck it back in from my CAD program, and what? I just have to lay everything out again?

What about transparency between layers? Just try and do a 4 layer board. It's a royal PITA.

There's no reason for it other than stuff like this is probably kind of boring and not very interesting, and they'd rather spend time working on fun stuff, but all this boring stuff is very important if you want to be taken seriously. That said, I'll continue to use it because it's relatively cheap and it works very well for what I need right now (and probably for most hobbyists too), but I'm constantly on the lookout for new software packages.

DIPTrace has become known as DIPShit around my office for these reasons and more. I've become sorry that I recommended it...
 

Offline BloodyCactus

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2015, 12:09:55 AM »
it would be nice, if you open a schematic it did a check on the parent part and said 'hey, component X has changed' and give you a list of parts on your board you can update. Ive had instances where updating a part and choosing to update all the same part on the schematic did not actually change them all, just a percentage of them. but luckily its not often I've had to do it but when you do and its more than 1 part on a single schematic its a royal pain in the ass.

still, light years beyond eagle for part creation/management.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2015, 01:54:29 AM »

still, light years beyond eagle for part creation/management.

Absolutely. The reason I keep using it and recommending it is that the overall situation doesn't really seem to improve until you get to something like Altium, and that's just so unaffordable that I can't even consider it. Diptrace is very very good for the price, but now it's being held back because they're completely deaf to what pros need.
 

Offline K6TR

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2015, 05:58:17 AM »

still, light years beyond eagle for part creation/management.

Absolutely. The reason I keep using it and recommending it is that the overall situation doesn't really seem to improve until you get to something like Altium, and that's just so unaffordable that I can't even consider it. Diptrace is very very good for the price, but now it's being held back because they're completely deaf to what pros need.

Pros don't need Differential Pairs ?
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2015, 11:31:09 AM »
Before basic features that are timebombs ready to go off in a production environment? No way.
 

Offline BloodyCactus

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2016, 07:15:49 AM »
kinda surprised how long this beta is running. is there that many bugs they are working on fixing or is the software REALLY not readdy for v3.0..

odd.
 

Offline john_p_wi

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2016, 01:25:50 AM »
One has to wonder IF they are resource limited and have possibly become "distracted" on another project?  I have been using 2.9 beta since it was released without issue - that being said have not had use for the differential pair routing etc.

I would get more benefit by them updating the snapping / alignment /adding a simple graphics editor / library management etc.... more than anything.  Not being critical, it just seems that they have lost the drive to be competitive and release updates in a timely manner.  Is it foretelling or a reason to be concerned? 
 

Offline BloodyCactus

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #45 on: January 14, 2016, 04:39:22 AM »
poking around the diptrace form it seems there is going to be released sometime soon? (in november it was said 1-2 months for version 3 release... so thats about 'now'). so only alex really knows.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #46 on: January 14, 2016, 04:47:12 AM »
It is taking a while, there are responses to feature request such as "we are aware it needs implementing / changing", some are possibly quite simple to tweak / add configuration for.

EAGLE and KiCad has been updated more than DT at present.

I keep track of the 3 "more popular" packages.

I was wondering if they had resource issues or were working on a "sideline" project, I am quite intrigued to see if they will slip any goodies in V3, hopefully they will, which is why they are taking their time! :-//
 

Offline john_p_wi

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #47 on: January 14, 2016, 05:32:27 AM »
I am quite intrigued to see if they will slip any goodies in V3, hopefully they will, which is why they are taking their time! :-//

I wouldn't hold my breath.  In fact, after I finish the boards that I have in process, I need to take a very hard look IF I want to continue with DT.  The delay in solving or adding even the most elementary features is concerning - as much as I would hate to change, it may be time to look at another software package before my time invested is a wasted effort.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2016, 12:34:50 PM by john_p_wi »
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2016, 12:14:54 PM »
I don't use DT "actively", I've done a few things with it when looking at alternatives to EAGLE, I now use KiCAD, but I was hoping that they would have released a stable release by now.
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: Post on the upcoming next Beta
« Reply #49 on: January 24, 2016, 03:30:43 PM »
One has to wonder IF they are resource limited and have possibly become "distracted" on another project?

Alex & his team have been busy on several other specialist projects (that help pay the bills), however we should now see DipTrace Ver 3.0 released in March/April 2016.

There have been a few niggling problems that have "slipped through" various version upgrades over the years & these are being worked on now.

Also, there has been further testing with Windows 10, particularly relating to screen drivers/accelerators.
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