Author Topic: 2018 Macbook Pro terrible thermal design (Read 15296 times)

NiHaoMike · « **on:** July 19, 2018, 12:58:46 am »

https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/8zv74u/you_cant_make_this_shit_up_the_core_i9_macbook/
The latest i9 ends up slower than an i7. While Apple is well known for "pay more, get less", this time they make a higher end version of a product perform worse!
Based on a teardown video I looked at, the aluminum bottom doesn't seem to have a thermal pad to help cool the CPU. Maybe it's time for someone to try adding some and repeating the tests...

Fsck · « **Reply #1 on:** July 19, 2018, 01:06:09 am »

My i7 in an XPS15 thermally throttles, basic engineering says an i9 in a thinner space will definitely throttle.
Hell, the short term turbo for my laptop is 78W.

bitseeker · « **Reply #2 on:** July 19, 2018, 03:19:33 am »

Even the power bricks for Macbook Pros and iPads run ridiculously hot. Maybe it's a feature.

From time to time I feel like disassembling my Apple power supplies and putting them in properly ventilated enclosures.

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #3 on:** July 19, 2018, 03:24:37 am »

They did this way back with their iMacs. Those came with shiny i7s, but could do only about 30 seconds worth of full load before being throttled. They did sell you the i7 you asked for, but the usefulness has to be questioned.

NiHaoMike · « **Reply #4 on:** July 19, 2018, 04:41:16 am »

I also remember the "trash can" Mac Pro being criticized for bad thermal design, something Apple was bragging about!

optoisolated · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2018, 04:06:06 am »

Intel's TDP For that mobile i9 is 45W. There is zero way this is a fair representation IMO.
https://ark.intel.com/products/134903/Intel-Core-i9-8950HK-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_80-GHz

How in the world can you run 6 cores at 4.9GHz and expect 45W TDP? It's not possible. They have to have been expecting that the processor would be doing naff all for 99% of the time, and only doing 1/2 second spikes. But all the tests that you see on youtube showing it doing mediocre workloads and throttling massively. I have yet to see any reports of it going above 4Ghz for any amount of time, inside or outside of a freezer.

The main concern is... How did this get past Intel's QA, and worse yet, How did it get past Apple and Dell's QA processes? Surely, someone noticed this was an issue??? How could they not???

WackyGerman · « **Reply #6 on:** July 21, 2018, 06:18:08 am »

Turn the air condition down to -30 degrees celsius and the problem is solved

Fsck · « **Reply #7 on:** July 21, 2018, 06:37:33 am »

Quote from: optoisolated on July 21, 2018, 04:06:06 am

Intel's TDP For that mobile i9 is 45W. There is zero way this is a fair representation IMO.
https://ark.intel.com/products/134903/Intel-Core-i9-8950HK-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_80-GHz

How in the world can you run 6 cores at 4.9GHz and expect 45W TDP? It's not possible. They have to have been expecting that the processor would be doing naff all for 99% of the time, and only doing 1/2 second spikes. But all the tests that you see on youtube showing it doing mediocre workloads and throttling massively. I have yet to see any reports of it going above 4Ghz for any amount of time, inside or outside of a freezer.

The main concern is... How did this get past Intel's QA, and worse yet, How did it get past Apple and Dell's QA processes? Surely, someone noticed this was an issue??? How could they not???

turbo is listed as single core turbo though. (I don't know what it turbos to with all cores) Actually, in my XPS15, the i7 8750 thermal throttles pretty horribly at stock voltage. You have to undervolt it to really see it shine. I like seeing it power/current throttle though.

kripton2035 · « **Reply #8 on:** July 21, 2018, 06:47:56 am »

these computer are clearly been designed for north alaska , north russia , and extreme south atlantic users...

abraxa · « **Reply #9 on:** July 21, 2018, 07:51:27 am »

Quote from: optoisolated on July 21, 2018, 04:06:06 am

The main concern is... How did this get past Intel's QA, and worse yet, How did it get past Apple and Dell's QA processes? Surely, someone noticed this was an issue??? How could they not???

Well, that's marketing for you. You wouldn't believe how many people buy things based on how they look on paper because they don't have a clue. An i9 looks better on paper than an i7, so there you go. Also, don't underestimate the brag factor ("I have an i9! It has more megahurtz than your i7!").

wraper · « **Reply #10 on:** July 21, 2018, 08:32:53 am »

Quote from: kripton2035 on July 21, 2018, 06:47:56 am

these computer are clearly been designed for north alaska , north russia , and extreme south atlantic users...

Too warm. For using in Antarctic, outdoors only.

bd139 · « **Reply #11 on:** July 21, 2018, 10:03:47 am »

That’s a bit rubbish. They appear to have lost it. My 2013 i7 MBP will run flat out without throttling. It does however make a hell of a lot of noise.

Gone back to a desktop PC however. Much less hassle and doesn’t burn your dick off.

Brumby · « **Reply #12 on:** July 21, 2018, 10:57:38 am »

First choice of Antarctic expeditions, perhaps?

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #13 on:** July 21, 2018, 11:03:01 am »

Apple have lost the plot since Steve Jobs rests in peace.

My MBPs 17 i5 and i7 also throttle and the fans kick in hard when I forget to open and clean the radiators' fins, about once a year.

jpb · « **Reply #14 on:** July 21, 2018, 11:15:57 am »

I wonder how well the i9 (and the Xeon equivalent) fair in the 17inch workstations such as the
Dell 7730, HP Z book 17 G5 and probably the Thinkpad P72 (if it appears - there is a P52 but the P72 hasn't yet been announced I think).

I would guess that these top end CPUs, like the 100W plus P5200 GPU, are only feasible in the laptops that are essentially lugable desktops.

2N3055 · « **Reply #15 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:05:08 pm »

Did anybody notice something funny here...

In video he says "the Macbook is going to inherently be slower, that's normal, Adobe Premiere is not as well optimized for Mac OS as is for Windows, but that has nothing to do with Apple..."

And then this graph. That shows that if you are using Apple Adobe Premiere on MacOS it is 4,5-5,3 times SLOWER that running on 2300 USD Win laptop..

That means that a person doing video editing on a Win PC will be able to do same amount of work in ONE DAY as the person using MacOS in ONE WORKWEEK (5 working days). On PC that is 2-3 times less expensive...

Or that you could run Premiere on 10 years old WinPC and still be faster...

"the Macbook is going to inherently be slower, that's normal, Adobe Premiere is not as well optimized for Mac OS as is for Windows, but that has nothing to do with Apple..." See, I don't care whose fault it is . Using that program on that platform is unacceptable with such margins of slowdown.
Tough luck, it is unfair, but I would switch to Win platform if that is the difference, if Premiere is my main tool.

And no, you don't get used to crappy keyboard... It just keeps on being crappy.

Not to mention that thermal design being nonexistent in Apple laptops is their trademark. Nothing new here.

optoisolated · « **Reply #16 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:31:02 pm »

What kind of crazy person says that Premiere is designed to work better on a PC? That's bananas! Adobe stuff is always Mac First, PC second.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #17 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:38:24 pm »

On the Mac you're supposed to use Apple software: Final Cut. Adobe's been castigating Mac users for a lonnng time already, ~ a decade, it's the same with Photoshop.

Hint: Who killed Flash?

optoisolated · « **Reply #18 on:** July 21, 2018, 12:39:39 pm »

That sounds like Apple... Linus' test on FCP sure didn't show the i9 in a positive light.

TheAmmoniacal · « **Reply #19 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:09:20 pm »

Quote from: optoisolated on July 21, 2018, 04:06:06 am

Intel's TDP For that mobile i9 is 45W. There is zero way this is a fair representation IMO.
https://ark.intel.com/products/134903/Intel-Core-i9-8950HK-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_80-GHz

How in the world can you run 6 cores at 4.9GHz and expect 45W TDP? It's not possible. They have to have been expecting that the processor would be doing naff all for 99% of the time, and only doing 1/2 second spikes. But all the tests that you see on youtube showing it doing mediocre workloads and throttling massively. I have yet to see any reports of it going above 4Ghz for any amount of time, inside or outside of a freezer.

The main concern is... How did this get past Intel's QA, and worse yet, How did it get past Apple and Dell's QA processes? Surely, someone noticed this was an issue??? How could they not???

Intel has been changing their "definition" of TDP several times lately, as they've had to compete with more cores their architecture struggle with power usage and heat. Intel themselves are to blame, I'm sure Apple designed the MacBook with a 45W TDP power dissipation, but the chip is much more in reality.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #20 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:25:23 pm »

TDP is at base frequency with all cores "active under an Intel-defined, high-complexity workload", you can only have turbo boost in short bursts and in only a few cores at once at most.

Fsck · « **Reply #21 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:27:22 pm »

Quote from: TheAmmoniacal on July 21, 2018, 01:09:20 pm

Quote from: optoisolated on July 21, 2018, 04:06:06 am
Intel's TDP For that mobile i9 is 45W. There is zero way this is a fair representation IMO.
https://ark.intel.com/products/134903/Intel-Core-i9-8950HK-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_80-GHz

How in the world can you run 6 cores at 4.9GHz and expect 45W TDP? It's not possible. They have to have been expecting that the processor would be doing naff all for 99% of the time, and only doing 1/2 second spikes. But all the tests that you see on youtube showing it doing mediocre workloads and throttling massively. I have yet to see any reports of it going above 4Ghz for any amount of time, inside or outside of a freezer.

The main concern is... How did this get past Intel's QA, and worse yet, How did it get past Apple and Dell's QA processes? Surely, someone noticed this was an issue??? How could they not???

Intel has been changing their "definition" of TDP several times lately, as they've had to compete with more cores their architecture struggle with power usage and heat. Intel themselves are to blame, I'm sure Apple designed the MacBook with a 45W TDP power dissipation, but the chip is much more in reality.

Notebookcheck: https://www.notebookcheck.net/Apple-MacBook-Pro-2018-Much-more-performance-with-a-few-clicks.317552.0.html
Apparently they didn't put in turbo power limits, so thermal throttling occurs unchecked. Turbo boost kind of throws TDP out the window, the system will turbo as hard as it can, constrained by the cooling performance and settings, whichever bottlenecks first.

This size/thickness of laptop is really not designed for the power output capability. My XPS15 has a 130W power supply, I thought it was just for the battery charging speed, but if you really push it with prime95 and furmark simultaneously, you can actually pull 130+W from it hwinfo had me at 160W of system power consumption before I ended the excessive stress test, and then thermal throttling occurs due to the excessive power use.

I also did the VRM heatsinking to the case "mod" using thermal pads, and it definitely is a nutroaster.

Also, look at https://ark.intel.com/products/129948/Intel-Core-i7-8700T-Processor-12M-Cache-up-to-4_00-GHz , it's a desktop part but good as a comparison chip.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #22 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:35:07 pm »

Quote from: Fsck on July 21, 2018, 01:27:22 pm

Turbo boost kind of throws TDP out the window, the system will turbo as hard as it can, constrained by the cooling performance and settings, whichever bottlenecks first.

AFAIK, that's how turbo boost has always worked: die temp is the negative feedback.

Fsck · « **Reply #23 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:37:22 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 21, 2018, 01:35:07 pm

Quote from: Fsck on July 21, 2018, 01:27:22 pm
Turbo boost kind of throws TDP out the window, the system will turbo as hard as it can, constrained by the cooling performance and settings, whichever bottlenecks first.
AFAIK, that's how turbo boost has always worked: die temp is the negative feedback.

you're supposed to have an upper power limit, and turbo time limit so the cooling system can set up.

Berni · « **Reply #24 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:42:17 pm »

Throttling at stock CPU clock? Now that's a fail alright

Yes you can't expect turbo boost to keep pushing it on a sustained load in a laptop but this is getting out of hand.

Oh and anyone saying turbo boost is just for bursts its not true. The only limitation to turbo boost is the TDP limit and die temperature. In my desktop i can run my i7 4790K at its 4.4GHz boost speed on all 4 cores with a sustained load. However to do that it has a big ass 3rd party air cooler on it and the TDP limit in bios had to be lifted to 150W (Its a 80W chip otherwise). Technically its overclocking since i mucked with it in bios, but then again the CPU is still running within original manufacturer speeds at its own will, i just told it to not hold back on power consumption because my cooling solution can handle it.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #25 on:** July 21, 2018, 01:43:21 pm »

But one core (and even perhaps two) at turbo speeds draws less power than TDP, it's temp what would make it/them throttle down, there's not a preset time limit.

rrinker · « **Reply #26 on:** July 23, 2018, 06:56:05 pm »

Others are having the same issue with the I9 in similar form factor laptops. Just make it a bit bigger (but hey, thin is sooooo cool, err, hot). You don;t need oen of those monster 'portable desktops', unless you also want to carry around a full performance GPU as well - just a slightly thicker machine and there would be enough space for a beefier thermal solution. I call BS that the real TDP is only 45 watts. The I7 at slightly lower clocks is 45 watts, add 2 cores and increase the speed and it's STILL 45 watts? How in the name of physics can they do that? Oh, by making the CPU throttle more aggressively, I supposed.

Howardlong · « **Reply #27 on:** July 23, 2018, 08:12:09 pm »

Kinda interesting that claim that Adobe Premier performs better in Windows than OSX, all the Adobe developers I know of work on MBPs.

Quote from: Fsck on July 21, 2018, 01:27:22 pm

This size/thickness of laptop is really not designed for the power output capability. My XPS15 has a 130W power supply,

If that’s the current 2018 Coffee Lake version, does the power supply use the USB C ports with some special Dell proprietary extra power feature, or does it use a DC power plug? How big and heavy is the power brick? (I am in the market at the moment, although my 6 yo 2012 MBPr still performs remarkably well).

ConKbot · « **Reply #28 on:** July 23, 2018, 09:08:33 pm »

Title has a superfluous "2018" and "book pro" in it.

Apple computer products have always had hit or miss cooling. All the way back to the G3 days, if not earlier. Some good units, some bad units, its always been spotty at best.

just how its been, and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone now.

BrianHG · « **Reply #29 on:** July 24, 2018, 12:32:13 am »

The mac-book pro's cpu isn't thermally throttling, it's the cpu core VRMs power supply overheating and conking out, see here:

Fsck · « **Reply #30 on:** July 24, 2018, 12:54:49 am »

Quote from: Howardlong on July 23, 2018, 08:12:09 pm

Kinda interesting that claim that Adobe Premier performs better in Windows than OSX, all the Adobe developers I know of work on MBPs.

Quote from: Fsck on July 21, 2018, 01:27:22 pm
This size/thickness of laptop is really not designed for the power output capability. My XPS15 has a 130W power supply,

If that’s the current 2018 Coffee Lake version, does the power supply use the USB C ports with some special Dell proprietary extra power feature, or does it use a DC power plug? How big and heavy is the power brick? (I am in the market at the moment, although my 6 yo 2012 MBPr still performs remarkably well).

Current 9570 version of 2018, uses 4.5mm barrel plug, same as previous generation. my power brick is slightly covered in wiring so it's inconvenient to weigh it. I'd guess 200-600g, somewhere in that range.
You can power the thing using thunderbolt if you want and have a thunderbolt dock.

FlyingHacker · « **Reply #31 on:** July 24, 2018, 01:29:37 am »

Quote from: optoisolated on July 21, 2018, 12:31:02 pm

What kind of crazy person says that Premiere is designed to work better on a PC? That's bananas! Adobe stuff is always Mac First, PC second.

Back in 2000 Adobe product manager told me the PC was now the preferred and optimized platform for Photoshop, and that was almost two decades ago. Most adobe products run better on Windows, have for ages.

amyk · « **Reply #32 on:** July 24, 2018, 03:04:55 am »

Quote from: 2N3055 on July 21, 2018, 12:05:08 pm

In video he says "the Macbook is going to inherently be slower, that's normal, Adobe Premiere is not as well optimized for Mac OS as is for Windows, but that has nothing to do with Apple..."

Pure bullshit. Video rendering is exactly the sort of workload that depends almost exclusively on CPU performance; the OS isn't involved at all for the sort of computations that dominate such workloads. It's like a program that computes pi --- you're likely not going to find any difference regardless of OS (or whether there is one at all), unless the OS is itself doing a bunch of work in the background with other processes and taking CPU time away from the main task.

He should've put his money where his mouth is, and installed Windows to repeat the same benchmark.

stj · « **Reply #33 on:** July 24, 2018, 12:09:07 pm »

why does anybody buy Crapple anyway?
they have not made a decent piece of hardware since the PPC based brightly coloured systems.
back then the customer was no.1 too - support for life.

now they spend more time inventing new screws and hidden or overly short interconnects to help keep you out and the warranty amounts to "fuck you".

one other thing most people wont know about,
apple used to have an ftp server containing *everything* going back to the apple2.
o.s. disk images, bios dumps - everything.

when steve jobs died, they couldnt wait to erase those drives!!!

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #34 on:** July 24, 2018, 01:09:18 pm »

ftp.info.apple.com

bd139 · « **Reply #35 on:** July 24, 2018, 01:37:05 pm »

Indeed. Also lets not forget their open source stuff: https://opensource.apple.com/ and their contributions to postfix, LLVM, FreeBSD etc...

As for warranty, I've been extremely well looked after.

arekm · « **Reply #36 on:** July 24, 2018, 06:41:31 pm »

"Apple this morning released a new supplemental update to macOS High Sierra 10.13.6, which is designed to address a bug that caused the new eighth-generation quad-core and 6-core Intel processors in the 2018 MacBook Pro models to throttle inappropriately. "

"While there were many theories as to what was causing the throttling, Apple has discovered that there was a missing digital key in the firmware that impacted the thermal management system, driving down clock speeds under heavy thermal loads. This is what has been addressed in today's update. "

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/

Howardlong · « **Reply #37 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:10:27 pm »

Some reasons I have been shifting away from purchasing Apple

O No after market upgrade paths
O Built-in obsolescence
O Apple tax
O Bad engineering (e.g., GPU failures, keyboard failures, touch-IC)
O Limited repairability
O Horrendously expensive authorised repairs
O You pretty much have to buy AppleCare on higher end devices (more Apple Tax)
O Can’t recover soldered in drive on u/s motherboard
O Sub optimal Windows support (e.g. trackpad is crap)
O Dongle world and port starvation
O Apple lock in

ebastler · « **Reply #38 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:22:52 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 24, 2018, 01:09:18 pm

ftp.info.apple.com

Thanks, George. But is this FTP connection actually working for you? I can't seem to connect.

stj · « **Reply #39 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:35:55 pm »

not working here either.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #40 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:43:26 pm »

Oh, sorry, no, that's the server stj referred to:

Quote from: stj on July 24, 2018, 12:09:07 pm

one other thing most people wont know about,
apple used to have an ftp server containing *everything* going back to the apple2.
o.s. disk images, bios dumps - everything.

when steve jobs died, they couldnt wait to erase those drives!!!

It's not working anymore!

Fsck · « **Reply #41 on:** July 24, 2018, 07:59:52 pm »

Quote from: arekm on July 24, 2018, 06:41:31 pm

"Apple this morning released a new supplemental update to macOS High Sierra 10.13.6, which is designed to address a bug that caused the new eighth-generation quad-core and 6-core Intel processors in the 2018 MacBook Pro models to throttle inappropriately. "

"While there were many theories as to what was causing the throttling, Apple has discovered that there was a missing digital key in the firmware that impacted the thermal management system, driving down clock speeds under heavy thermal loads. This is what has been addressed in today's update. "

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/

I still don't think Apple's design is so good that that it'll allow the full turbo for a sustained workload.

bd139 · « **Reply #42 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:11:55 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 24, 2018, 07:43:26 pm

Oh, sorry, no, that's the server stj referred to:

Quote from: stj on July 24, 2018, 12:09:07 pm
one other thing most people wont know about,
apple used to have an ftp server containing *everything* going back to the apple2.
o.s. disk images, bios dumps - everything.

when steve jobs died, they couldnt wait to erase those drives!!!

It's not working anymore!

Mirrored here: https://ia800501.us.archive.org/zipview.php?zip=/8/items/download.info.apple.com.2012.11/download.info.apple.com.2012.11.zip

BrianHG · « **Reply #43 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:16:11 pm »

I bet the new Macbook would have a meltdown and burn in flames and never complete an attempt to do a full 2 hour Quartus FPGA compile on it...

Funny, my HP laptop, though the fan goes haywire when Quartus compiles, it does not throttle... Well, ok, my HP laptop is twice as thick as the Macbook and only has 4 cores...

Well, even my desktop, when doing a bunch of Quartus full builds all day turns into a space heater...

Fsck · « **Reply #44 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:24:02 pm »

Quote from: BrianHG on July 24, 2018, 08:16:11 pm

I bet the new Macbook would have a meltdown and burn in flames and never complete an attempt to do a full 2 hour Quartus FPGA compile on it...

Funny, my HP laptop, though the fan goes haywire when Quartus compiles, it does not throttle... Well, ok, my HP laptop is twice as thick as the Macbook and only has 4 cores...

Well, even my desktop, when doing a bunch of Quartus full builds all day turns into a space heater...

Luckily for us free users, Quartus is limited to a single core.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #45 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:29:53 pm »

I just have to open a few tabs in chrome with dodgy web pages and the fans sound like if the MBP was gonna lift off. But maybe it's my fault:

langwadt · « **Reply #46 on:** July 24, 2018, 08:55:30 pm »

Quote from: arekm on July 24, 2018, 06:41:31 pm

"Apple this morning released a new supplemental update to macOS High Sierra 10.13.6, which is designed to address a bug that caused the new eighth-generation quad-core and 6-core Intel processors in the 2018 MacBook Pro models to throttle inappropriately. "

"While there were many theories as to what was causing the throttling, Apple has discovered that there was a missing digital key in the firmware that impacted the thermal management system, driving down clock speeds under heavy thermal loads. This is what has been addressed in today's update. "

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/

seems to me like they just told the CPU/GPU to not use maximum power at the same time, so instead of throttling
a lot half the time at high loads, they just throttle a little all the time at high loads

stj · « **Reply #47 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:18:44 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 24, 2018, 08:29:53 pm

I just have to open a few tabs in chrome with dodgy web pages and the fans sound like if the MBP was gonna lift off. But maybe it's my fault:

you know it's funny, Rossmann was saying in one of his video's that the problem with the "cult of apple" is users often blame themselves for the defects!!
and here you are - doing exactly that.

NO, it's not your fault that the damned computer can be cooked via the browser.

CJay · « **Reply #48 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:20:01 pm »

It's apparently been 'fixed' with a software update, no idea how that's meant to work.

stj · « **Reply #49 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:21:30 pm »

Quote from: CJay on July 25, 2018, 12:20:01 pm

It's apparently been 'fixed' with a software update, no idea how that's meant to work.

probably like the Nvidia fix by other laptop makers, agressive fan and lower clock.

Mr. Scram · « **Reply #50 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:27:27 pm »

Quote from: stj on July 25, 2018, 12:21:30 pm

probably like the Nvidia fix by other laptop makers, agressive fan and lower clock.

Quite possibly they're allowing the chip to run hotter.

CJay · « **Reply #51 on:** July 25, 2018, 12:40:11 pm »

Don't know the details yet, we have a guy here who's registered and able to obtain Apple betas for MACOS and iOS, he also seems to get update and fix news quickly too, I'll press him for more later if there's interest?

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #52 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:38:41 pm »

Quote from: stj on July 25, 2018, 12:18:44 pm

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 24, 2018, 08:29:53 pm
I just have to open a few tabs in chrome with dodgy web pages and the fans sound like if the MBP was gonna lift off. But maybe it's my fault:
you know it's funny, Rossmann was saying in one of his video's that the problem with the "cult of apple" is users often blame themselves for the defects!!
and here you are - doing exactly that.
NO, it's not your fault that the damned computer can be cooked via the browser.

Hey, look at the picture I posted. I can set there the slope of the fan speed= ƒ(temp). I don't want to cook it, hence the ~ steep slope, hence the "maybe it's my fault".

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #53 on:** July 25, 2018, 01:58:56 pm »

Quote from: CJay on July 25, 2018, 12:20:01 pm

It's apparently been 'fixed' with a software update, no idea how that's meant to work.

Tweaking the ƒ() that sets the DVFS (or whatever that is in Intel's CPUs, speedStep?) point?

CJay · « **Reply #54 on:** July 25, 2018, 02:24:04 pm »

DOn't know exact details as yet, even though I've asked him, he was vague. He thinks they've altered clock speeds and temperature settings so, being sarcastic, we'll probably see users with cooked thighs fairly soon.

bd139 · « **Reply #55 on:** July 25, 2018, 02:33:35 pm »

I think I've mentioned in another thread that burning your dick off is a modern laptop feature

stj · « **Reply #56 on:** July 25, 2018, 02:43:52 pm »

Quote from: bd139 on July 25, 2018, 02:33:35 pm

I think I've mentioned in another thread that burning your dick off is a modern laptop feature

that's o.k. because the wifi module will sterilise you first anyway!

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #57 on:** July 25, 2018, 02:53:17 pm »

To make popcorn double click a .torrent

bd139 · « **Reply #58 on:** July 25, 2018, 02:57:30 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 25, 2018, 02:53:17 pm

To make popcorn double click a .torrent

Not such a bad idea. At university we made popcorn on a 7404. If you ran them at 9-12v they do the job quite well, for a while anyway

senso · « **Reply #59 on:** July 25, 2018, 03:59:46 pm »

Quote from: langwadt on July 24, 2018, 08:55:30 pm

Quote from: arekm on July 24, 2018, 06:41:31 pm
"Apple this morning released a new supplemental update to macOS High Sierra 10.13.6, which is designed to address a bug that caused the new eighth-generation quad-core and 6-core Intel processors in the 2018 MacBook Pro models to throttle inappropriately. "

"While there were many theories as to what was causing the throttling, Apple has discovered that there was a missing digital key in the firmware that impacted the thermal management system, driving down clock speeds under heavy thermal loads. This is what has been addressed in today's update. "

https://www.macrumors.com/2018/07/24/2018-macbook-pro-throttling-bug-fix/

seems to me like they just told the CPU/GPU to not use maximum power at the same time, so instead of throttling
a lot half the time at high loads, they just throttle a little all the time at high loads

By a little, you mean, a LOT.

Running at less than 3Ghz is depressing.

But, half the blame is to Intel, TDP was before used to specify TDP at max turbo, now its to specify TDP at base clocks, Turbo on an i9 means anywhere from 75 to 100Watts.

That and CPU's binned for laptops with VID's over 1.25V is also not helping..

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #60 on:** July 25, 2018, 04:27:55 pm »

I guess there's a reason why a desktop CPU has a TDP of 140W and the laptop one 45. You can't/should not expect to be able to render at the same speeds (for a long time, perhaps in short bursts yes), when one CPU can dissipate three times as much power as the other.

stj · « **Reply #61 on:** July 25, 2018, 09:53:23 pm »

looks like it's more fundamental - oh shit!!

BrianHG · « **Reply #62 on:** July 26, 2018, 10:14:18 pm »

Quote from: stj on July 25, 2018, 09:53:23 pm

looks like it's more fundamental - oh shit!!

I posted that video over 34 posts ago in this thread on page 2!
See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/2018-macbook-pro-terrible-thermal-design/msg1695641/#msg1695641

I also said it was the VRM settings, not the CPU temps...

Cerebus · « **Reply #63 on:** July 27, 2018, 03:00:35 am »

Quote from: bd139 on July 25, 2018, 02:33:35 pm

I think I've mentioned in another thread that burning your dick off is a modern laptop feature

Not that modern a feature even. I had cause yesterday to get my old 2004 vintage 17" G4 notebook out and, as it hasn't been used or powered since Christmas, it had a flat battery. My, that thing gets warm when charging from nada, and as in this weather I was just wearing shorts it soon became a floortop rather than a laptop.

On the subject of thermal performance, I've got an old Intel Mac Pro (MacPro1,1) sitting next to me that I'm typing this on. It's currently 31.2 C ambient in this room — that's why I'm still up rather than asleep — and the CPU temperatures are both only 44 C and the fans are as near silent as makes no difference.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #64 on:** July 27, 2018, 07:38:15 am »

If the CPU can't even get the full power it needs, that's a serious design error, isn't it? A defect of the kind the warranty is made to cover, right?

ebastler · « **Reply #65 on:** July 27, 2018, 07:59:48 am »

Quote from: 2N3055 on July 21, 2018, 12:05:08 pm

In video he says "the Macbook is going to inherently be slower, that's normal, Adobe Premiere is not as well optimized for Mac OS as is for Windows, but that has nothing to do with Apple..."

And then this graph. That shows that if you are using Apple Adobe Premiere on MacOS it is 4,5-5,3 times SLOWER that running on 2300 USD Win laptop..

"the Macbook is going to inherently be slower, that's normal, Adobe Premiere is not as well optimized for Mac OS as is for Windows, but that has nothing to do with Apple..." See, I don't care whose fault it is . Using that program on that platform is unacceptable with such margins of slowdown.
Tough luck, it is unfair, but I would switch to Win platform if that is the difference, if Premiere is my main tool.

That post dates a few days back already, but I think nobody has commented on one relevant aspect:

I think what the performance comparison highlights is not a MacOS vs. Windows optimization difference. It's mainly (purely?) about a difference in graphics card performance, and maybe optimization to a specific graphics card architecture.

The Windows notebook used in the comparison is a Gigabyte Aero 15X gaming machine, with a pretty potent Geforce GTX 1070 graphics card. Adobe does make use of graphics card computation for tasks like rendering videos, and it seems that the GTX 1070 is better suited to that than the Radeon GPU used in the Macbook -- or Adobe has done a better job optimizing for that GPU.

Still a relevant comparison for those who want to do video rendering with Adobe Premiere. But a rather specific test case which cannot be extrapolated to general performance of CPU-intensive tasks.

CJay · « **Reply #66 on:** July 27, 2018, 08:38:53 am »

Quote from: Cerebus on July 27, 2018, 03:00:35 am

Not that modern a feature even. I had cause yesterday to get my old 2004 vintage 17" G4 notebook out and, as it hasn't been used or powered since Christmas, it had a flat battery. My, that thing gets warm when charging from nada, and as in this weather I was just wearing shorts it soon became a floortop rather than a laptop.

On the subject of thermal performance, I've got an old Intel Mac Pro (MacPro1,1) sitting next to me that I'm typing this on. It's currently 31.2 C ambient in this room — that's why I'm still up rather than asleep — and the CPU temperatures are both only 44 C and the fans are as near silent as makes no difference.

I seem to remember reading about a reviewer for PCW or one of the other telephone directory thick PC mags of the 80's telling a story of their testing lab disabling the fans on a 386 portable (they weren't laptops those days, unless you had girder reinforced legs) and them pressing a thermometer to the case to check temperature and the thermometer went through the plastic because it'd got that hot.

Have been playing with a 2013 MBP this past week and it's reinforced my beliefs about Apple gear, nice quality, well integrated but I still can't force myself to like the OS, which is a shame because it was a freebie, oh well.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #67 on:** July 27, 2018, 09:12:17 am »

To see what's the throttling speed using six cores just paste:

yes > /dev/null &
yes > /dev/null &
yes > /dev/null &
yes > /dev/null &
yes > /dev/null &
yes > /dev/null &

To stop it:

killall yes

And if you want to put some load on the GPU at the same time, launch itunes, play a song and turn on the visualizer in as big a window as you can.

That's it!

It'll be cooked in a minute, ready to lift off:

bd139 · « **Reply #68 on:** July 27, 2018, 09:56:01 am »

Quote from: CJay on July 27, 2018, 08:38:53 am

Have been playing with a 2013 MBP this past week and it's reinforced my beliefs about Apple gear, nice quality, well integrated but I still can't force myself to like the OS, which is a shame because it was a freebie, oh well.

I share this sentiment.

I've got a top end 2013 rMBP. i7, 16Gb RAM, 1TiB SSD that I bought new that cost a small fortune. Engineering is indeed top notch.

However I mostly use a shitty old recycled HP core 2 box that I don't even know how fast it is that is full of dust, with 4Gb of RAM and a cheap ass Samsung evo SSD I found lying around all running windows 10. And an equally shitty old i5 Lenovo T440.

If it had a proper keyboard, not the bastard Apple variety, and the OS had much better keyboard control capability I'd probably be happy with it but it feels like I'm wearing oven gloves all the time. Also fuck me it's difficult trying to frig a USB driver device ID due to the signing. Grr.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #69 on:** July 27, 2018, 10:05:38 am »

The last decent OSX, the only one that's not full of silly bugs everywhere, is Snow Leopard. Works fine in any i5/i7 MBP up to 2011. And you could get one of those in 17", now not any more.

stj · « **Reply #70 on:** July 27, 2018, 12:09:21 pm »

if i had an apple product, i would sell it or put Linux on it, although the keyboard would be a pain.
does apple still think you only need one mouse button btw??

bd139 · « **Reply #71 on:** July 27, 2018, 12:17:38 pm »

No you can use two buttons since about 2002

CJay · « **Reply #72 on:** July 27, 2018, 12:58:09 pm »

Quote from: bd139 on July 27, 2018, 12:17:38 pm

No you can use two buttons since about 2002

Yep, Apple invented the 2 button mouse and claimed credit for it after everyone else had been using them for years

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #73 on:** July 27, 2018, 01:15:50 pm »

They also invented windows, but everybody credits Microsoft for that

bd139 · « **Reply #74 on:** July 27, 2018, 01:36:36 pm »

Xerox invented windows

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #75 on:** July 27, 2018, 01:46:00 pm »

Quote from: bd139 on July 27, 2018, 01:36:36 pm

Xerox invented windows

Apple didn't invent the mouse

bd139 · « **Reply #76 on:** July 27, 2018, 02:01:22 pm »

Apple didn’t invent anything. Ever. They just made it marketable.

CJay · « **Reply #77 on:** July 27, 2018, 02:15:24 pm »

*runs like the wind with fireproof suit on*

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #78 on:** July 27, 2018, 02:17:45 pm »

They invented Dylan, and Bob Dylan sued them for that

And MagSafe, it was a good thing.

FireWire, ThunderBolt, web Touch Events, the <canvas> element, C-Blocks, Bonjour/ZeroConf, ADB (a slow USB), AppleTalk, the first ever cheap network-able laser printer with postscript, hyperCard/hypertalk: web browsers were ~ a carbon copy of that, and the smartphones as we know them now. I'm far from an Apple fanboy, but they've done things.

CJay · « **Reply #79 on:** July 27, 2018, 02:20:09 pm »

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2018, 02:17:45 pm

They invented Dylan, and Bob Dylan sued them for that

And MagSafe, it was a good thing.

I do like Magsafe, this MBP has it...

stj · « **Reply #80 on:** July 27, 2018, 02:53:09 pm »

the concept of magsafe is good, but i have yet to see a really long lasting implementation.

the chinese have a number of designs to adapt phones&tablets, but most of those are not brilliant either.
you either have data lines and a polarised and poor connection,
or you have this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TOPK-L-Line-1M-Magnetic-Charging-Cable-90-Degree-LED-Cable-for-iPhone-X-8-7/32854367440.html

these are really good quality, but because they have no datalines your not going to get more than 5v from a charger.

bd139 · « **Reply #81 on:** July 27, 2018, 03:26:19 pm »

Quote from: CJay on July 27, 2018, 02:20:09 pm

Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on July 27, 2018, 02:17:45 pm
They invented Dylan, and Bob Dylan sued them for that

And MagSafe, it was a good thing.

I do like Magsafe, this MBP has it...

I don't. I've replaced too many left IO boards to like it. Some of which were burned to shreds. Plus it only caters for the scenario where someone falls over the cable. Plus we have a box of burned up supplies at work where the strain relief has gone. They need to fire whoever designed Apple's strain reliefs.

This is my problem with the engineering really.

A couple of years ago I had a Lenovo X201 and a nasty bout of the flu and was slightly delirious and all over the place. I fell on my arse while holding the laptop and proceeded to pull a chair over with a full cup of hot coffee on it. The chair landed in the middle of the keyboard while open and smashed the screen right back. The coffee went straight in it. wiped out the key bed and screen and it was fine despite having taken a beating and a cup of coffee. About a week later I noticed a dicky patch on the bottom right of screen. Bought a new screen and lid assembly from eBay for £19 just because it was irritating. It was perfectly functional.

End of last year I feel asleep with my (2013) MBP on my lap and it neatly slid down my legs because it's a shiny slippery bastard and gently fell about 8 inches onto the carpet. This dinked the corner hard enough to bend the lid slightly and pop the screen entirely. New lid and screen assembly cost me £300.

CJay · « **Reply #82 on:** July 27, 2018, 03:54:07 pm »

They don't innovate as much as people seem to think they do but what they can do is design and market the living daylights out of a product and make it *desireable*.

stj · « **Reply #83 on:** July 27, 2018, 04:00:17 pm »

they "think different"

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #84 on:** July 27, 2018, 04:04:09 pm »

Maybe, yes, not very well executed (magsafe). But, back in 2009, a Mac with Snow Leopard was the best PC money could buy.

Quote from: CJay on July 27, 2018, 03:54:07 pm

and make it *desireable*.

*desireable* to be pronounced as Johnathan Ive would.

GeorgeOfTheJungle · « **Reply #85 on:** July 27, 2018, 04:32:12 pm »

Quote from: wikipedia

IEEE 1394 is an interface standard for a serial bus for high-speed communications and isochronous real-time data transfer. It was developed in the late 1980s and early 1990s by Apple, which called it FireWire.

Quote from: wikipedia

Thunderbolt is the brand name of a hardware interface standard developed by Intel (in collaboration with Apple) that allows the connection of external peripherals to a computer.

Symbian / current smartphones: any resemblance is pure coincidence

Appletalk: network devices were self-configuring, had names, and had types (classes) not just addresses.

Quote from: wikipedia

Although systems similar to AARP existed in other systems, Banyan VINES for instance, nothing like NBP has existed until recently

ebastler · « **Reply #86 on:** July 27, 2018, 05:04:38 pm »

Quote from: blueskull on July 27, 2018, 04:18:36 pm

Smartphones, depending on how do you define them, but my definition is a phone that can run third party apps and run apps in background. In this perspective, Symbian S60 is probably earlier than iOS.

Yes, S60 predates iOS. But you might notice a slightly different form factor when you compare your venerable S60 phone with an iPhone or Android device? You know, all screen, no keys?

Apple has successfully commercialized many ideas that were first proposed elsewhere. (Which in several instances included a non-trivial effort in "getting it right".) But claiming that they "never invented anything" is a bit ridiculous.

They (Steve Wozniak, actually) also invented a really clever floppy disk controller.

Yes, that's been a while ago...

CJay · « **Reply #87 on:** July 27, 2018, 05:33:23 pm »

Well to jump into the flames, LG might take issue with Apple claiming the 'smartphone' because they launched their Prada touchscreen phone almosrt a year before the iPhone was made public...

Woz is a great and innovative engineer (and a really nice bloke if what I've seen of him is halfway true), Jobs was a great design and marketing man, Cook is a corporate figurehead and Apple seem to be playing catchup a *lot* these days.

GregDunn · « **Reply #88 on:** July 27, 2018, 08:02:23 pm »

All I know is that I've worked with PCs and Macs for 30+ years, and the Macs are the only computers which don't make me want to hurl them out the window on a daily basis. Microsoft has yet to figure out how to make all the different bits of their UI work as a consistent, integrated whole. And hardware? I'm happy to pay a bit more for something that powers up every time I hit the switch, and doesn't mysteriously fail to recognize peripherals on a whim. Just my opinion based on decades of experience - flames ignored.

But Woz? A charming and frighteningly intelligent guy. I've analyzed some of his hardware and software designs and they're truly elegant in a minimalist, efficient way. His floppy controller, printer interface, video and memory hardware are object lessons for any wannabe engineer. Jobs, by contrast, was an arrogant marketeer who didn't really grasp engineering principles at all - he just browbeat the smart people into being innovative out of self-defense. I've met them both, and I know who I'd rather spend time talking to - about almost anything.

CJay · « **Reply #89 on:** July 27, 2018, 08:31:22 pm »

Quote from: GregDunn on July 27, 2018, 08:02:23 pm

All I know is that I've worked with PCs and Macs for 30+ years, and the Macs are the only computers which don't make me want to hurl them out the window on a daily basis. Microsoft has yet to figure out how to make all the different bits of their UI work as a consistent, integrated whole. And hardware? I'm happy to pay a bit more for something that powers up every time I hit the switch, and doesn't mysteriously fail to recognize peripherals on a whim. Just my opinion based on decades of experience - flames ignored.

But Woz? A charming and frighteningly intelligent guy. I've analyzed some of his hardware and software designs and they're truly elegant in a minimalist, efficient way. His floppy controller, printer interface, video and memory hardware are object lessons for any wannabe engineer. Jobs, by contrast, was an arrogant marketeer who didn't really grasp engineering principles at all - he just browbeat the smart people into being innovative out of self-defense. I've met them both, and I know who I'd rather spend time talking to - about almost anything.

Similar, been working with PCs since DOS 3.3, can;t get used to the Mac, never have been able to even back when I was using a Mac SE (kinda wish I'd not thrown the Lisa away though).

I'm rather pleased Woz is as cool a guy as I thought (yeah yeah, I'm a fan)

drMacFaulty · « **Reply #90 on:** July 28, 2018, 08:06:16 pm »

Don't know if it contains anything people want to download, but with a bit of URL manipulation you can browse the FTP server that was earlier mentioned by using the Wayback Machine (they do FTP, too). Wayback Machine mostly also has the files (at least, that's my experience).

Do note that the latest usable snapshot is from 2002: https://web.archive.org/web/20021016075612/ftp://ftp.info.apple.com

Zimphire · « **Reply #91 on:** July 31, 2018, 11:37:46 pm »

Apple had a GUI running before visiting Xerox...

2N3055 · « **Reply #92 on:** August 01, 2018, 07:10:15 am »

Quote from: Zimphire on July 31, 2018, 11:37:46 pm

Apple had a GUI running before visiting Xerox...

In 1973. ?


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