Author Topic: Another laughable "high-end" audio product  (Read 13437 times)

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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2018, 02:43:26 am »
The sad part about this is that people apparently actually buy these! And the fact that people make money of these!

I mean seriously, what has happened to this world? Where people forget all logic and everything they have learned in school, and end up buying this stuff?

The interesting part would be if someone had access to sales statistics and similar of these companies. Anyone?

Leo

These people will surely get Darwinized eventually. Unlike real tube heads, they obviously know nothing about actual electronics. The high voltage (or something exploding) will get them soon enough, we just have to wait. >:D
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Offline frog_jr

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2018, 07:50:15 pm »
OK, I will confess...
I have a client that sells high end audio equipment that he "builds".
Among his equipment is an amplifier for which I designed a pre-amp.
When he was telling me what specs he wanted to meet, he also added that he wanted it to have "features" that would set it apart. 

After I finished the board layout, he had lots of material to add to his marketing...
It has a trapezoidal shape (not that anything came close to requiring it).
With matched signal lengths (after all, if it is good enough for 10G it should be great for audio).
Not a hard angle to be found in the copper, all very smooth and rounded (don't want any electrons bouncing out!)
Oh, and a special finned heat sink since the entire pre-amp dissipates nearly a quarter watt.

I still can't believe what people are paying for these things!

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 02:27:02 pm by frog_jr »
 
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Offline borjam

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2018, 07:12:50 am »
With matched signal lengths (after all, if it is good enough for 10G it should be great for audio).
Hmmm. I smell big business. Microwave waveguides for phono preamps so that it's more transparent to high frequencies? :D

Imagine not only the cost of the waveguides, but the installation fees!
 

Offline HalFET

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2018, 08:31:18 am »
OK, I will confess...
I have a client that sells high end audio equipment that he "builds".
Among his equipment is an amplifier for which I designed a pre-amp.
When he was telling me what specs he wanted to meet, he also added that he wanted it to have "features" that would set it apart. 

After I finished the board layout, he had lots of material to add to his marketing...
It has a trapezoidal shape (not that anything came close to requiring it).
With matched signal lengths (after all, if it is good enough for 10G it should be great for audio).
Not a hard angle to be found in the copper, all very smooth and rounded (don't want any electrons bouncing out!)
Oh, and a special finned heat sink since the entire pre-amp dissipates nearly a quarter watt.

I still can't believe people what are paying for these things!

I did layout for such a board (freelance on location) while in college. I added "isolation slots" around the opamp, left the soldermask open on the audio traces so they were gold plated, and so on. It's funny in a way if they pay you per hour to layout their bullshit. My favourite was how they demanded vias around the signal path, main issue with that entire concept was that they weren't hooked up to anything and that it made it near impossible to route things to the other side of the board. Worst power layout design ever. Don't think it ever made it to market, doubt it'd pass any EM compliance testing for that matter.
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2018, 06:59:35 pm »
Don't think it ever made it to market, doubt it'd pass any EM compliance testing for that matter.
??? EM compliance?  Your audio frequency linear amp design emitted radio waves?  Or was it switching?
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2018, 03:55:12 am »
Don't think it ever made it to market, doubt it'd pass any EM compliance testing for that matter.
??? EM compliance?  Your audio frequency linear amp design emitted radio waves?  Or was it switching?

An amplifier designed poorly enough would be an oscillator. :-DD
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Offline borjam

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2018, 07:25:59 am »
Anyway, the best kept secret in the audio industry is, the "best sounding" equipment is not the most linear and cleaner, quite the contrary!

Some people prefer vinyl and analog tape because the way it distorts sounds beautiful. When recording music distortion is added on purpose. Why are studios using microphones with a valve preamplifier? Because valve distortion sounds good. Now there are even digital emulations of the distortion of different pieces of equipment.

I have a very good audio interface with two very good microphone preamps. It's so good some people says it's "lifeless". But it has a DSP with a lot of processing blocks you can activate (equalization, etc) and a commonly used feature is the preamplifier emulation for the inputs. You can enable it and you get a distortion model called "British mic pre 1" (could be an emulation of a Neve or SSL mixing desk channel) :)

Remember, it's music, not laboratory measurements. Distorting the sound (in a good way!) is part of the creative process.
 

Offline jh15

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #32 on: March 17, 2018, 03:29:49 am »
Adding a desirable sound is not hifi, but common. Look at new crappy turntables I cringe at, vs modest ones of the 70's.

They play a vinyl on a massless turntable, crappy cartridge, wow and flutter up the kazoo, and think it sounds better than a cd or even an mp3?

Well same thing here: proposed  Jaguar ev car. You can make fake exhaust sound in the drivers compartment of your choice. They sell it so as to listen and know what speed you are going.

Not related to some new laws to make ev cars noisy so blind people won't step in front of them. (I like sneaking up on neighbors in the road anyway)

There is some crappy soviet or western bloc film camera that takes crappy pictures for fun, is what I think of casual vinyl lovers.

When my ears were good, I could hear differences in stylus cantilever materials. Recent vinyl revolution (pun?) is a joke. Sill hear crappy artifacts in compressed audio.

Rather have full dynamic range on a perfectly mastered cd or FLAC.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 03:35:56 am by jh15 »
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2018, 04:09:31 am »
In other words, if my system is almost ideal, by doing some DSP trick, I can clone the sound characteristics of any existing, lower performance systems. This allows me to quickly adapt to customers' preference and competitors' latest product.

I understand what you are saying - but that just caused a lot of people to choke on their breakfast.
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2018, 05:27:30 am »
There exist some good Audio purist grade hardware, and, such speakers and amps / preamps are not too expensive and are usually minimalist in design.  This stuff isn't cheap, but today, you can manage a really good setup below 2k$, (Includes speakers, amp, preamp, wiring)  though it's hard to navigate past low quality fake junk at this low price level.  With a slightly larger budget, you can get an awesome setup.  I personally stay away from any processing in favor of properly designed speakers / amp / preamp / dac.  (Though I did design a sub-woofer processor for special uses...)

When it comes to Audiophile/Audiophool stuff, yes, 1k$ to 10k$ speaker cables are BS.  50k$ speakers are just too much.  All the write-ups on such products are all subjective BS with no real background.  But, if you want to make 9.8k$ profit on a pair of speaker cables, you have no choice but to write such things.  And, these things do sell as my friend owns a high end audio/video shop here in Montreal, and this is what a particular set of clientele of his wants.  So, he sells it to them.  And this type of clientele come back every few years wanting more AV equipment for him to set up in one of their new homes, or new summertime cottage up north because they have 0 complaints about what he sold them previously.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 05:31:52 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2018, 06:42:32 am »
The people that buy that shit are usually incredibly stupid...

Darwin advises avoiding contact...
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2018, 07:35:35 am »
The people that buy that shit are usually incredibly stupid...

Darwin advises avoiding contact...
But they have BIG $$$.  Owning multiple 8 figure $ homes, approximate 7 figure $ cars with more money than what they know what to do with, selling products they will pay for is a valid means of making money.

Just avoiding them means you can never get your hands on any of that money they are willing to give away with just the right stories.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2018, 07:37:25 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline peteb2

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2018, 11:02:14 pm »
True 'argument' experience from when i had a meet up with a seriously dedicated Audiophile (Audiophool).

The guy had spent thousands of dollars on seriously expensive gear and was excited he believed he could now hear a marked quality better sound from his setup when he invested in an expensive bespoke made silver-conductors power cable... From wall-outlet into the amplifier chassis, the IEC chassis connect, bassically an electric kettle lead!

I kid you not...

I horsed with him a bit and agreed then added he could now more than likely determine if the mains electricity had been generated either by hyrdo (as in lake damned water) or if it had come from a gas/coal powered station (no nuclear in my country)... It took him no time to agree and that he was aware of a distinctive difference...

That's when i added he really needed to do all his monitoring a VACUUM chamber so that 99% of all the bad air in the room was removed that colored so much of what he heard...

The guy wrinkled up his face and absolutely agreed.... !!!

 :-DD

 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #38 on: March 19, 2018, 01:10:03 am »
and wooden RCA connector caps.
What, no shielding there?  An open point for EMI or RF to penetrate.
 

Offline borjam

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #39 on: March 19, 2018, 08:58:47 am »
As a HiFi hobbyist, I would like to defend the HiFI concept. We all know HiFi doesn't sound the best, but HiFi grants little to no unintended distortion and noise, which gives a clean system for the user or DSP engineer to add intentional distortion and flavor.

In other words, if my system is almost ideal, by doing some DSP trick, I can clone the sound characteristics of any existing, lower performance systems. This allows me to quickly adapt to customers' preference and competitors' latest product.

HiFi or even audiophile equipment is not the same as audiophool voodoo.

I have tried expensive loudspeakers (Kef, Tannoy, B&W and ProAc models at around $5000 euro a pair) and the sound was really awesome. That said, no system is perfect. I remember a pair of Epos loudspeakers I tried once. The voices from a recording of Bach's Matthaus Passion were incredible, like the singers were in front of me. But the orchestra was a bit mushy, like behind a thick curtain.  More expensive than that? Probably it's like comparing a Rolex to a Seiko.

With amplifiers I think that the main difference is how they distort. I remember, when I read some HiFi magazines now and then, some esoteric amplifiers that got the highest scores in the listening tests were the ones with more distortion and RF interference susceptibility. Which wasn't surprising to me of course! ;)

Anyway it comes down to what you like. Some people like loudspeakers with boomy, exagerated bass around 100 - 200 Hz. Other people, especially with age, like a small oomph on high frequencies. What's wrong with that? Moreover, unless I am wrong loudspeakers can play interesting tricks with amplifiers because of their impedance curve. Some "8 ohm" speakers can have as little as 2 ohms at certain frequencies and that can induce some distortion depending on the frequency content falling into those "hotspots". So often the "hey, this amplifier sounds great with these speakers" can very well mean that you hit a hotspot you particularly enjoy.

The only way to judge how authentic your equipment sounds is to go to the studio where the recordings have been mixed and compare the sound. The carefully calibrated monitors in a well designed room will be the real reference.

When I go shopping for HiFi gear I take 10 CDs that I know well with me, two recorded by myself even, and I judge wether I enjoy the sound or some weakness gets especially obvious. That's it.

And what do I have at home? Well, nothing especially fancy. A 25 year old combination of a Nad 302 amplifier and Tannoy 632 loudspeakers.  I know its shortcomings of course. I have a very expensive audio interface for recording (Metric Halo ULN-2) but the reason is simple, it has awesome microphone preamplifiers with a very high S/N ratio and a lot of gain if needed. As I said it's so good, some people find it "boring", "cold" and "surgical" and resort to the equipment emulation (ie, adding very mild and gentle distortion) to give it some "spark" :)

 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #40 on: March 19, 2018, 09:58:00 pm »
and wooden RCA connector caps.
What, no shielding there?  An open point for EMI or RF to penetrate.

Never seen a single "audiophile" RCA covers made of metal. Always wooden or plastic.
Funny, mine are solid brass with everything else all heavy 24k gold plated, though the outside grip has an electrostatic black paint on it, with a white/red painted ring.  They are designed to be fully repairable.
 

Offline grifftech

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2018, 03:21:11 pm »
I believe the claim on their highest end cables "Demo them for 30 days and compare with any cable of any cost -- you will hear the difference or you'll send them back!"

they will sound better than this wire: https://www.amazon.com/Speaker-GearIT-Meters-Theater-Speakers/dp/B00HZX453I/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1521645225&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=speaker+cable&psc=1
and these spades: https://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-BVST6-Terminal-Connector/dp/B005HQ4QTI/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1521645612&sr=1-7&keywords=spade+connectors
 

Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2018, 04:32:43 am »
I believe the claim on their highest end cables "Demo them for 30 days and compare with any cable of any cost -- you will hear the difference or you'll send them back!"

they will sound better than this wire: https://www.amazon.com/Speaker-GearIT-Meters-Theater-Speakers/dp/B00HZX453I/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1521645225&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=speaker+cable&psc=1
and these spades: https://www.amazon.com/Install-Bay-BVST6-Terminal-Connector/dp/B005HQ4QTI/ref=sr_1_7?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1521645612&sr=1-7&keywords=spade+connectors
Maybe, and I stress maybe, but, it will not sound better than this wire, especially if you use 2 pairs/speaker, 1 for the woofer and 1 for the mid&tweeter like I do:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-250-ft-12-2-Solid-Romex-SIMpull-CU-NM-B-W-G-Wire-28828255/100048873

That's 29 cents a foot.  (My setup at 8 feet X 4 cables = under 20$)  And don't use the stupid spades.  They introduce another point of 1 type of metal crimped/soldered to another type of metal contact.  Just use my suggested solid conductor copper core wire and crunch the end slightly in a vice to flatten it into shape.  You removed another potential point of resistance.  Just buy an amp and speaker with real sturdy binding posts.

And having the 2 pairs with speakers which have separate inputs for woofer and tweeter is the one time you gain performance with speaker cable if your amp is wired properly internally with 2 sets of outputs as well.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 05:14:43 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline helius

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2018, 05:12:29 am »
Bi-amping has nothing to do with the performance of the speaker cable, unless you mean that you need twice as much of it.
Do you know how to improve the performance of the speaker cable? Just use a heavier gauge wire, like 9awg instead of 14awg. That's all.
"Oxygen Free" cable is also bullshit.
 
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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2018, 05:47:12 am »
Bi-amping has nothing to do with the performance of the speaker cable, unless you mean that you need twice as much of it.
Do you know how to improve the performance of the speaker cable? Just use a heavier gauge wire, like 9awg instead of 14awg. That's all.
"Oxygen Free" cable is also bullshit.
I am not Bi-amping.  The amp is wired internally with all the MOSFET's source pads are wired to 1 internal point/post internally.  At that 1 point, the negative feedback is taken and at that point, the 2 separate wires feeding the 2 separate speaker binding posts at the rear of the amp.  That point is in theory the perfect 0 ohms and perfect signal.  The separate wires going to the speaker after that just deals with the unusual LPF crossover for the woofer in the speaker which can express a load across the series resistance of the speaker cable.  The mid/tweeter wire is completely free from that load being taken with a separate wire right from that negative feedback reference point.  Sort of like what is done inside a linear high current regulator where the output source is wire bonded to the low impedance pin, then, there is another wire bond from that pin back to the regulator IC as feedback.

I do not believe in having a separate amp with active crossover because of the need for perfectly matching everything across 2 amps + the price is getting out of hand.  That extra filter box in the middle and all those RCA cables & how good is that filter box & are the speakers well matched for it & the etcetera can of worms involved.  I prefer a simpler route & I take some advantages where I can if the cost is only an extra 10$-50$ at the end of the day.  After all, the amp was 2.5k$.  I went for a really high quality discrete amp instead, having this 1 additional double speaker binding posts option as it is a minimal additional cost.  Obviously, the difference here is becoming insurmountable except when driving the full 500w into a 4 ohm woofer unless there was 12 gauge speaker wiring inside the amp, which there isn't.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2018, 05:50:05 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline Synthtech

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2018, 08:40:42 am »
There is a “high end” Hifi dealer here in Sydney with a big reputation that you need very deep pockets to even walk in the door. I remember hearing about a customer that purchased a premium stereo system from them that included installation and they installed and commissioned it and handed it over to the proud customer with the speakers wired out of phase.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2018, 06:57:14 pm »
There is a “high end” Hifi dealer here in Sydney with a big reputation that you need very deep pockets to even walk in the door. I remember hearing about a customer that purchased a premium stereo system from them that included installation and they installed and commissioned it and handed it over to the proud customer with the speakers wired out of phase.

You seem to expect audiophools to have working brains... :-DD
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2018, 02:26:25 am »
... they installed and commissioned it and handed it over to the proud customer with the speakers wired out of phase.

 :palm:  Instant credibility vaporisation.


Tell me - who worked out the phase goof?
 

Offline helius

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2018, 04:48:12 am »
It wouldn't be too surprising if the speakers were miswired internally, the installer just connects red to red and calls it good. You need to listen to test tracks to identify a phase reversal problem, it isn't usually obvious with ordinary music.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Another laughable "high-end" audio product
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2018, 04:53:39 am »
Some amps have a deliberate reverse setting as an effect. So if it was miswired you could just run it in reverse.

EDIT: Phase reverse that is, not LR reverse. Phase reverse seems to mostly be a preamp thing. Some output amps might have it though.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2018, 04:58:12 am by Cyberdragon »
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