Electric car charger design and manufacture done by Government agencies.

[ocset]

Every country in the world should set up its own Government owned  Design and Manufacture centre for designing/manufacturing electric car chargers for its own country’s citizens.
This will prevent imports of huge amounts of dodgy electric car chargers by dodgy “middle men”. Such dodgy chargers will result in disappointed customers, and  tons and tons of scrap electronics…since these car chargers are big items.
These car chargers are high power items, and taking shortcuts in their design , to save money , will result in disappointed customers, as well as loads and loads  of scrap electronics. As such, the governments of countries should take over the design, to ensure that their country is not flooded with loads of super-cheap  electric  car chargers , which break down prematurely and  get scrapped. For example, these units will comprise fans which will fail because  dodgy  designers put cheap fans in them. However, a   government design agency would ensure that the right fan was used, and also ensure that units which had stopped working simply because their fan had stopped working are recycled by having their fan replaced…….ie the whole unit not scrapped  just because its fan had failed. This is just one example of the  tasks  of such a government agency towards providing good car chargers to its citizens.
If  this  kind of Government  agency is not set up, then loads of dodgy “middle men” will set themselves up to import loads of dodgy Far Eastern electric car chargers, making themselves mulit-millionaires overnight, and deluging their own country with tons and tons of scrap electronics. This must not be allowed to happen. Tariffs  must  be placed on any electric car charger that has not been purchased from the Government owned agency.
If the demand for electric car chargers outstrips the government owned agency’s  ability to supply electric car chargers, then  the government agency will import car chargers. But it will only do so if the schematic and hardware  is provided first,  so that the design of the charger can be checked  out. Any profit that the government agency makes by importing car chargers, will be transparently payed into the countries tax system….ie no dodgy “middle men” will become multi-millionaires overnight by importing lots of rubbish electric car chargers.
Are we all in agreement that the above must happen?

[langwadt]

just things were done in the Eastern Bloc before the end of the cold war, what a great idea /s

[mmagin]

How is this different from any other mains-connected electrical product?

Also, given that most EV chargers are just a fancy GFCI (RCD) and some serial communications to say what charge rates are acceptable, I expect the main ways they fail prematurely are just things like poor connectors, relays, etc.

[Ice-Tea]

Yes, because as we all know:

- We must get rid of this free market crap. What good has that ever done us, eh?
- Clearly everything the Government does is high quality, top notch and efficiently executed.

If there's one thing the Government could be more involved in is enforcing existing standards. Other than that, I hope and prey they keep their noses out of it.

[sokoloff]

Are we all in agreement that the above must happen?

Absolutely not in agreement.

Assuming you're talking about the EVSE (the actual "charger" is on-board the car), it's a fairly simple device, and I see no reason to think that handing a monopoly over the design and manufacture of EVSEs to the government will result in a better outcome than the free market.

[IanB]

How did treez learn to be so clueless? Is there a special school you can go to for this?

[mikeselectricstuff]

 
Yeah because governments are sooo good at doing things right when it comes to anything technical...
To suggest they participate in manufacture of a complex product is idiotically naive  and a recipie for disaster. If nothing else, by the time they'd decided anything, half the BOM would be obsolete.
What's so special about car chargers anyway..?
 

[mikeselectricstuff]

How did treez learn to be so clueless? Is there a special school you can go to for this?

I'm increasingly thinking he's just trolling to wind people up - if not he probably needs a major reality check...

[langwadt]

Also, given that most EV chargers are just a fancy GFCI (RCD) and some serial communications to say what charge rates are acceptable, I expect the main ways they fail prematurely are just things like poor connectors, relays, etc.

Household chargers? Maybe. Fast chargers? No.
Fast chargers have actual power electronics in them to convert grid voltage (380V/400V/480V/600V, or maybe up to pole voltage at 2~10kV) directly into battery voltage.

https://youtu.be/qy9pltNa0rY

[Cyberdragon]

Yeah because governments are sooo good at doing things right when it comes to anything technical...
To suggest they participate in manufacture of a complex product is idiotically naive  and a recipie for disaster. If nothing else, by the time they'd decided anything, half the BOM would be obsolete.

 

[jmelson]

Every country in the world should set up its own Government owned  Design and Manufacture centre for designing/manufacturing electric car chargers for its own country’s citizens.

Hmm, the last electrical device designed by a government agency in the US was likely the "electric chair" to execute convicts.  Not a great precedent.

(Well, actually, it might be the NSA crypto gear, which wasn't too bad.)

Jon

[Stray Electron]

  Exactly!   OP, have you ever seen a charger that was designed and built by a "government agency"?  NOT a contractor but a real government agency?  I have and it wasn't pretty!  The government designs chargers about as well as they do anything else. Which is to say very poorly!

[Raj]

I disagree
Here's why-
People will re-purpose unused chargers for something else, if they remain unsold

People need to learn, the power inputting systems like powersupply needs to be super reliable for their electronics to work longer, be it the hard way like, computers blowing up.

After one or two bad things happen to a single product, the customers will soon realize the company is crap and lead to it's death.


Free market man. It corrects itself

Government is inefficient. Look at brexit. UK's surveillance and internet censorship (i I looked at your id's flag and thus giving examples you can relate to)

People who disagree with above things can move to Russia.

[Gregg]

If technical development had been regulated by government, this question would be moot--- technology would never have developed enough for Treez to even ponder this.

Ineptitude in government far exceeds any glimmer of brilliance that may shine through the layers of false self-importance and corruption.

[mikeselectricstuff]

The only role govts should have is setting and enforcing safety standards. Even this they sometimes go overboard ( CE including EMC immunity for example).
They will almost always be the least competent to manufacture anything - the Soviet Union proved that.

[T3sl4co1l]

People making a distinction between "market" and "government" has always been peculiar to me.

The government is always for sale, for some price.  It is on the market.

If the market demands controls, laws will be enacted, and tweaked and added until the demand is balanced.

This is why we have laws concerning EMC, product safety* and so on.

*Actually, we don't even have much (if any??) law about that.  It's more if you want to get anything from your insurance company in case of disaster, you better be using equipment they trust -- i.e., carrying a UL mark (or other NRTL, for the US).

If a shitty charger passes UL and FCC, it might be shitty, but at least it probably won't burn down your house, or if it does, you're more likely to get a settlement out of it.

Beyond that, if you demand lower risk, contact your congresspersons and ask them to enact laws that raise the cost of bargain-basement electronics.  I'm sure they'll help you out with that! /s

Tim

[ocset]

Thanks,
I should have probably said, that well run countries like America and Germany probably dont need this kind of Government intervention.
Americans and Germans have a natural sense of comraderie with  their fellow countrymen and dont seek to screw their fellow citizens like happens in UK.

I have experience with a company that sold 5-10kw electric drives….with this type of kit, there is lots you can do to increase the lifetime…but it costs………There is lots you can do to save money and create a cheaper product that will fail quickly….……loads of cheap dodgy chargers will be imported by middle men and create loads of scrap if the dodgy stuff isn’t blocked by tariffs etc.
When I worked with 5-10kw electric drives, so many used to fail (because we made them cheap), that we used to sell the customer “contracts to supply” electric drives, instead of selling the drives by volume…this was because they failed so often, that it was cheaper to just get the customer on a 12 month contract, and within that 12 months , we would just replace every failed electric drive for free…. As you know, this is what its like in the high power game, the kit can fail in droves when you take cost shortcuts….we did take cost shortcuts, because it was cheaper to just keep replacing the failed ones and make them cheaply.


Germany is the model country......where the German government secretly forces the German competitor companys to teamwork with each other….The great German car companies, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen….are all just one company in reality…sharing trade secrets with each other……by teamworking together their individual strengths are greater. The German government put “mixer staff” into these car companies, to make sure that trade secrets are shared…they also encourage BMW engineers to leave and go to Mercedes etc…part of the knowledge sharing….and look how effective this is.

[langwadt]

Thanks,
I should have probably said, that well run countries like America and Germany probably dont need this kind of Government intervention.
Americans and Germans have a natural sense of comraderie with  their fellow countrymen and dont seek to screw their fellow citizens like happens in UK.

I have experience with a company that sold 5-10kw electric drives….with this type of kit, there is lots you can do to increase the lifetime…but it costs………There is lots you can do to save money and create a cheaper product that will fail quickly….……loads of cheap dodgy chargers will be imported by middle men and create loads of scrap if the dodgy stuff isn’t blocked by tariffs etc.
When I worked with 5-10kw electric drives, so many used to fail (because we made them cheap), that we used to sell the customer “contracts to supply” electric drives, instead of selling the drives by volume…this was because they failed so often, that it was cheaper to just get the customer on a 12 month contract, and within that 12 months , we would just replace every failed electric drive for free…. As you know, this is what its like in the high power game, the kit can fail in droves when you take cost shortcuts….we did take cost shortcuts, because it was cheaper to just keep replacing the failed ones and make them cheaply.


Germany is the model country......where the German government secretly forces the German competitor companys to teamwork with each other….The great German car companies, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen….are all just one company in reality…sharing trade secrets with each other……by teamworking together their individual strengths are greater. The German government put “mixer staff” into these car companies, to make sure that trade secrets are shared…they also encourage BMW engineers to leave and go to Mercedes etc…part of the knowledge sharing….and look how effective this is.

you should try a career in comedy, your writing is hilarious

[mmagin]

Also, given that most EV chargers are just a fancy GFCI (RCD) and some serial communications to say what charge rates are acceptable, I expect the main ways they fail prematurely are just things like poor connectors, relays, etc.

Household chargers? Maybe. Fast chargers? No.
Fast chargers have actual power electronics in them to convert grid voltage (380V/400V/480V/600V, or maybe up to pole voltage at 2~10kV) directly into battery voltage.

Sure, but I assume the cheap crappy ones that fail prematurely aren't the high power fast chargers that run off >250V.

[jmelson]

If a shitty charger passes UL and FCC, it might be shitty, but at least it probably won't burn down your house, or if it does, you're more likely to get a settlement out of it.

Unfortunately, there is a lot of stuff on the market that bears a UL label, but was actually NOT certified by them.  They have not come up with a system to control the fraudulent use of fake UL labels.  If you go to WalMart, you will see tons of products that have UL labels - most of them are fake!

I reported one power strip/surge supressor to UL as being an obvious fake, they didn't even respond.  The most obvious part was if you plugged a US plug into the brand-new strip and turned it over, the plug FELL OUT of the socket.  This kind of poor connection COULD burn your house down!

YIKES!

Jon

[ConKbot]

Thanks,
I should have probably said, that well run countries like America and Germany probably dont need this kind of Government intervention.
Americans and Germans have a natural sense of comraderie with  their fellow countrymen and dont seek to screw their fellow citizens like happens in UK.

I have experience with a company that sold 5-10kw electric drives….with this type of kit, there is lots you can do to increase the lifetime…but it costs………There is lots you can do to save money and create a cheaper product that will fail quickly….……loads of cheap dodgy chargers will be imported by middle men and create loads of scrap if the dodgy stuff isn’t blocked by tariffs etc.
When I worked with 5-10kw electric drives, so many used to fail (because we made them cheap), that we used to sell the customer “contracts to supply” electric drives, instead of selling the drives by volume…this was because they failed so often, that it was cheaper to just get the customer on a 12 month contract, and within that 12 months , we would just replace every failed electric drive for free…. As you know, this is what its like in the high power game, the kit can fail in droves when you take cost shortcuts….we did take cost shortcuts, because it was cheaper to just keep replacing the failed ones and make them cheaply.


Germany is the model country......where the German government secretly forces the German competitor companys to teamwork with each other….The great German car companies, BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Volkswagen….are all just one company in reality…sharing trade secrets with each other……by teamworking together their individual strengths are greater. The German government put “mixer staff” into these car companies, to make sure that trade secrets are shared…they also encourage BMW engineers to leave and go to Mercedes etc…part of the knowledge sharing….and look how effective this is.

you should try a career in comedy, your writing is hilarious

The ongoing schtick is as good as some of the ones I see on R/eve.  Wants to be dodgy middleman importer one thread,  livid about them and wanting gov't intervention the next.  Can't make a street lamp driver without adversaries attacking it with EM weapons, or a 50W driverand then wants gov't programs for multi-KW stuff. You can admire coppercones consistently insane stuff, but with a treez thread it's a Christmas gift because you never know what you're gonna get, but you have a suspicion its gonna be good.

[ocset]

Thanks, the main power level of electric   car charger purchased will be 3kW. This is because it can be  connected  to single phase  domestic mains. Also, it gives a range of about 150 miles from an overnight charge…enough to get to work for most.
So the  dodgy geezers will be running the fets too hot and getting premature fails…What we could  see from the government run companys is actual heat sensors on each power fet so that if the user mounts the charger in a too-hot ambient and the fets start to overheat, then it will safely switch off and flag up “overheating”.
Its this kind of thing that the governemnt run companys can work on to end up with  a really long lasting efficienct charger…when failed units come back, they can be assessed and the results put into future builds until the failures are weeded out.
Many companies would be in the governemnt scheme, and together, they woudl end up with a great product and few failures.

Indded , many failures are connectors and solder opens, bent-board-cracked-ceramics etc...so thats all good stuff to weed out

I reverse engineered a 3kw charger some years ago and found the power fet isolated gate drives were not giving enough  voltage to get into the lower rds(on)  area…such slack and el-cheapo practices would be weeded out by the government monitored process. All individual companys who were taking part in this government initiative would have the info distributed to them so that all could benefit from each others knowledge….teamwork. All would be payed bonus’s if any member got good results, to encourage team effort...encourage helping each other along.

This is nothing  new..in USA, all the big semicons are known, behind the scenes, to be in bed with each  other…the USA Government enforces this (albeit secretly)…because the success of  all the American semicons, is crucial to the success of the American military machine.
China of course is another example…the worlds biggest exporter by volume….and a truly amazing rate of advancement in technology in a short time….all Chinese co’s are owned by the Chinese Government…and  with  a network of  UK middle men that they have cultivated in UK for example, they have  pretty much dismantled loads of  the UK electronics industry..nobody can say for sure thats what they meant to do..but thats what happened.....amazing operators.

We would also like to see heatsinks in failed units going back into new units, rather than sent for melting down...lots of stuff like this.

[coppercone2]

How did treez learn to be so clueless? Is there a special school you can go to for this?

I'm increasingly thinking he's just trolling to wind people up - if not he probably needs a major reality check...

If you read his previous posts it is obvious he is looking for government/political protection for his company because he works in highly competitive market places that end up having retarded margins or he is trying to break into certain market places populated by whale companies as a small fish company. If you can't use massive discounts due to insane volume to compete then you either need to either use shady engineering or business practices. The parts/solutions he asks for do not exist (i.e. handling his needs with existing device classes) so he is looking for some other method with which to operate a business.

Eliminating a free market and being first does the trick but unfortunately this results in command economies... So the business functions by robbing the tax payers. On the positive maybe his attitude is Machiavellian rather then completely sociopathic so he will make a high quality product that makes sense once he accumulates the necessary resources for cost reduction by scale.

The ethical way (i.e. not penalizing the freaking tax payer) of achieving this goal would be to develop a product that will work in the correct scale and look for trustworthy investors/venture capitalists, rather then eliminating competition with gestapo tactics. In short there is an idiot some where in his company and they are extremely pigheaded. The engineering specifications he gets with relation to BOM are completely insane. I am surprised they even try to develop that shit. How does that garbage even get authorized to go into the engineering department for development? The person authorizing the research is incompetent, the clear answer is that the market place is too difficult to enter at the current time with current resources. It is a gangsterish directive, with the hope that the engineers can hustle together some kind of solution in the face of extreme odds. Usually BOM reduction is started AFTER a reasonably easy to develop prototype is made that can at least make some money, to see if you can make more money.. as a side benefit.

I think there is paranoia in his sales department and company vision because they have been in competition with other little fish for so long, that they forgot you can actually get bigger WITHOUT selling anything if you have a GOOD PLAN that CONVINCES PEOPLE TO INVEST. Like people getting out of prison don't realize there is a economy that works well without stabbings and cigarette cartons. It seems they feel that they have to prove current production is highly profitable, rather then to admit that the market changed and they need additional resources to continue to prosper. Its basically a refusal of acceptance by MANAGEMENT.

 Remember the episode of the Simpsons where marge advises a fellow inmate that his art work will look better if he does not use the stabbing motion with the paint brush?

I have a  feeling that if they manage to produce a product that can satisfy company objectives at this point with the current company directives that lead to the development of the product it will literally be a smelly abomination... or some truly epic engineering (which is generally unlikely for any product). The cost related requirements are some Apollo 13 shit.

And the problem with a command economy is that it basically has a shitty transient response that ends up wasting a ton of cash, people high up don't have a good feel of what is going on and they can't respond quickly enough to market fluctuations. I would regard communism as 'dampened to shit all', it probobly won't ever reach the set point, let alone respond to changes.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Its this kind of thing that the governemnt run companys can work on to end up with  a really long lasting efficienct charger…

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that "govt run companies" are capable of doing anything competently or efficiently?

[boffin]

Its this kind of thing that the governemnt run companys can work on to end up with  a really long lasting efficienct charger…

Where did you get the ridiculous idea that "govt run companies" are capable of doing anything competently or efficiently?

Having worked in the public and private sector, trust me when I say that they they're in competition as to who can do the worst job. Worst might be measured slightly different in different aspects of the implementation, but they both suck equally.

As for the OP's comment, I see no problem with properly inspected items being sold by the private sector. The problem lies in that it's pretty easy to get things into the country without approval, and there's little recourse when you're buying it directly from an offshore source.