scam or legit order?

[Richard Crowley]

So does the $93K correlate with the cost of the 30 boards?

[jmelson]

So does the $93K correlate with the cost of the 30 boards?

NO!!!  The 30 boards would have been $7500 plus shipping.  So, this $93K is just crazy stuff.  I don't want to deposit the check, as it will surely bounce, and then I'll have to pay returned check fees.
Also, I'll have to explain to the IRS next year why this is NOT "income". 

Ugh, what a mess, but I'd love to get federal agencies involved and have somebody arrested.

Jon

[Richard Crowley]

Even if this weren't a scam (what are the chances?).
Do you really want a customer who can make a $85.5K "erroneous blunder"?

Find one of those evidence bags and send it to the FBI.

[jmelson]

Even if this weren't a scam (what are the chances?).
Do you really want a customer who can make a $85.5K "erroneous blunder"?

Find one of those evidence bags and send it to the FBI.

Well, since the check was MAILED to the bank, I think maybe the Postal Inspection Service is the place to start.  I'm hoping that because I actually have the ENVELOPE the check was mailed in, they might have some chance of arresting this guy.  (I don't know at this point if this is one guy with a computer and a color printer, or an international criminal gang.)

Jon

[hermit]

Tell them with postage and handling  they are 37￠ short.

[jmelson]

So, I examined the check under a microscope, and it does have some security features on it.  There's microprinting around the edge, and a heat-changing color spot.  Then, I looked up the DocuGuard paper, and found you can order the blank check paper forms from Amazon, WalMart, etc.

I don't know what the banks think about people printing their own checks on a laser printer, but my guess is they are not real happy about that.
But, I guess if the forms are available, at least a few businesses are doing this.

Jon

[IanB]

I don't know what the banks think about people printing their own checks on a laser printer, but my guess is they are not real happy about that.
But, I guess if the forms are available, at least a few businesses are doing this.

When I was growing up in the UK, cheques were not in theory required to be written on a bank issued cheque book. As long as all the required information was present and the signature was correct, a cheque could be accepted by a bank and processed. It is after all just a written instruction to your bank to transfer a sum of money to someone else. It could be written on notepaper. Of course banks would be very unhappy about the special handling required since it wouldn't go through the automated clearing systems, and maybe there would be a charge for that, and maybe times have changed and such is no longer true. But bank issued cheque books in the UK have never had much in the way of security features. It is not the paper that matters, but what is written on it.

[helius]

Security check paper is intended to prevent checks being modified (erased and rewritten) or duplicated and deposited more than once. As IanB said, there is nothing in the paper itself that carries the authority to draft a check. You can print your own checks with the automated features present: all it takes is ferromagnetic toner in the right font (MICR patterns). This toner is also available: you can buy it at Staples.

[CJay]

Security check paper is intended to prevent checks being modified (erased and rewritten) or duplicated and deposited more than once. As IanB said, there is nothing in the paper itself that carries the authority to draft a check. You can print your own checks with the automated features present: all it takes is ferromagnetic toner in the right font (MICR patterns). This toner is also available: you can buy it at Staples.

You don't even need the ferromagnetic toner, it's just a nicety that makes it machine processable.

if the reader can't do that then it gets processed by a person.

There are a few cases of people handing over cheques written on really weird things, a pig in one case I seem to remember...

*edit* Awhh, damnit, seems despite my remembering the cheque pig being reported in a UK newspaper, it might not be true.

[Circlotron]

There are a few cases of people handing over cheques written on really weird things, a pig in one case I seem to remember...

Hopefully it was to pay a jizya tax.

[jmelson]

Well, it gets much messier!  The check was apparently valid, ie. the company has the actual account with Fifth Third bank, but they did not create the check.  It seems that a few other people deposited the checks and funds were pulled out of the company's account!  I was the only one who was suspicious enough to NOT deposit the check.  So, the victim company is also going to contact the Postal Inspection Service.  With enough people reporting the same fraud, they may put enough resources into catching the crook.

Jon

[IanB]

So someone writes fraudulent checks on a third party's account, and then when the money is transferred they con people into "refunding" the money to the con artist? Check fraud and money laundering? Sounds like some Federal agencies should be interested in that...

[CJay]

Let's hope they put some effort in.

One of the neighbour's houses is often let out and one pair of tenants were running a scam like that, the mail that kept coming in proved that there are a lot of stupid people out there who can be scammed easily.

[jmelson]

So someone writes fraudulent checks on a third party's account, and then when the money is transferred they con people into "refunding" the money to the con artist? Check fraud and money laundering? Sounds like some Federal agencies should be interested in that...

Yes, if the other checks were of the same magnitude, we're talking about a nearly half million $ fraud.

And, presumably they are doing this to other companies, too.

Jon

[JohnMc]

Well, it appears there are a LOT of scams/fraud coming from Dubai.  Seems like maybe it is the wild west out there, no regulation and a bunch of low-morals guys start thinking about what they can get away with.  There certainly seem to be a lot of fraud alerts all over the net citing Dubai specifically.  it used to all be citing Nigeria.

As for the bank info, my bank will not send money to anybody without written authorization from me.  If they ever DID, I could scream bloody murder and they'd have to cover the loss.  (But, I know them, they are pretty cautious!)

Jon

Could still be the Nigerian's. Thailand is having a big problem with them running there scams from here. 

[tggzzz]

So, today my bank calls and asks if I was expecting a big check.  He used the info I supplied him to do a wire transfer to MAIL a paper check to the bank.  The scammer mailed a check for $93,000 to my bank branch

Are you sure it wasn't $95093.35?
FFI: https://www.ft.com/content/93a47a62-daf0-11e1-8074-00144feab49a

[PA0PBZ]

FFI: https://www.ft.com/content/93a47a62-daf0-11e1-8074-00144feab49a

Paywall 

[hermit]

FFI: https://www.ft.com/content/93a47a62-daf0-11e1-8074-00144feab49a

Paywall 

https://www.nytimes.com/1995/08/20/us/bank-credits-95093-junk-mail-check-to-customer-s-account.html

[tggzzz]

FFI: https://www.ft.com/content/93a47a62-daf0-11e1-8074-00144feab49a

Paywall 

Irrirating. Somewhat to my surprise, it wasn't paywalled on my machine.

Google for Patrick Combs $95093.35

[rsjsouza]

I was thinking the scam would be that Dubai is a middleman who diverts the product to a banned export destination.  You would get paid, but could be in a world of hurt from the State Department if you turned a blind eye to that possibility.

Yeah, that is another concern.  This isn't really serious dual-use technology, but CNC stuff does have a dual-use possibility.  I wouldn't want this stuff going to North Korea even if there weren't sanctions on that country.

But, how the hell can you be SURE anything you sell won't be diverted?  Besides putting a GPS receiver in it that burns the board out if it is powered up in a forbidden location, I just don't know how to do it.

Jon

You can never be sure, but if it is proven that you were suspicious and did not care for the red flags like the ones you are pointing in this thread, that is what matters in court - you would still be in big trouble. Also, you need to check if all the parts you are using are EAR99 - a single one that is restricted and your product becomes restricted as well.

[jmelson]

Are you sure it wasn't $95093.35?
FFI: https://www.ft.com/content/93a47a62-daf0-11e1-8074-00144feab49a

Nope, $93,565.00   I have no idea how they came up with that number.  It is a fabricated check, printed with a laser printer on paper you can get from Amazon, but the ABA and account number were valid.  It was mailed from Las Vegas, NV.  Several other people got similar checks and actually deposited them, much to the concern of the outfit they were drawn on.

No idea if they are having any luck getting the authorities interested in investigating.

Jon

[Acecool]

I know of plenty of business who print their own checks, but they order their own unique paper... Imagine if large franchises or large corporations had to buy checks from the bank just to pay their employees... It'd be really expensive. You can pay with a check without even providing a check too - give routing number, account number, amount, name, and sometimes a signature to an online company and they'll use that information to initiate a transfer of funds... The check number just becomes a reference number.

Now, if the bank account number and routing, swift or ABA or whatever is correct then it could be the user got the companies information out of the trash or some other means and is using it to write bogus checks which the company will eventually discover and either return, or if it is too late to return they will come after you...

The large amount of money over what you would normally charge may support the idea that it is going to a country with sanctions and it makes YOU look complicit as though you're taking a bribe or payment to allow it, or to look the other way to let it happen....

NEVER take an order from a business without an official order form request from them signed by someone in charge of orders with a phone number you can call which is registered to them that you can call to confirm the order. If it is a company out of the country then they need to state what the product will be used for - at the very least they will need to sign a document claiming they will not send it out of the country ( I know Harbor freight and other companies in the USA does this - a family member of mine from Germany came and was denied being allowed to buy a ball peen hammer because he wanted to take it with him to Germany and that particular hammer wasn't allowed to be exported to Germany for some reason - turned out it was a mistake and he got the hammer, but a few other items he wasn't allowed to buy )....

I'm pretty sure, by law in the United States, if you take an order knowing it is being exported out of the country you need to do all of this extra paperwork... It happened at like 3 stores we went to...

[RoGeorge]

I'll bet it's a classic overpay scam: the scammer pay too much "by mistake", then ask the seller to refund the difference in cache, or to a third party.

Usually the initial payment is fraudulent, or made with somebody else's money. In the case of a totally valid initial payment (most probably not for this money check), then the scammer will ask you to send the refund to a different address, and thus using you as an intermediary in money laundering, or other illegal payment to a 3rd party.

https://www.scamwatch.gov.au/types-of-scams/buying-or-selling/overpayment-scams

[jmelson]

I'll bet it's a classic overpay scam: the scammer pay too much "by mistake", then ask the seller to refund the difference in cache, or to a third party.

Yup, I've been holding the documents in the hope that some investigative agency would want to get involved, but nothing has happened so far.  I'm afraid the trail has now gone cold, so the perpetrators would be nearly impossible to track down.

I can't imagine what a mess it would be to MY business if somebody started fabricating checks on MY bank account number!

Jon

[Acecool]

Tell them you cashed the check, but they overpaid... Ask them where to send the difference.... See what they say and forward that address to local law-enforcement in the area citing overpayment scams...