Author Topic: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?  (Read 16080 times)

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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #100 on: April 25, 2018, 05:00:04 pm »
(Another point worth making: those who are sympathetic to Autodesk's plight are welcome to disagree with the anti-subscription sentiment, but unless their name is Dave Jones, they have no business preaching about what is and is not acceptable for discussion in the thread.)

Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.
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Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #101 on: April 25, 2018, 05:23:10 pm »
Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.

This is personal for you, isn't it? I wonder why. You have decided to boycott Autodesk forever, which is fine. But why can't you let go, and why do you feel compelled to spoil Eagle for others, who may feel it meets their needs? And why the personal vendetta against a few Eagle proponents?

Please take a step back and reconsider. This can't be healthy for you, and it certainly is not healthy for the atmosphere here in the forum.
 
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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #102 on: April 25, 2018, 05:25:31 pm »
Indeed. If they (rachaelp, Jorge) don't like it here, autodesk/eagle has it's own forum where they can do their advertizing.

 :-DD

Again, I am NOT an Autodesk employee :D I'm just an EAGLE user. Granted I do like it quite a lot and I am not afraid to say so. But then I came from using DxDesigner / PADS a few years back and those tools drove me insane with their clunkiness and rigid workflows which didn't at all fit with how I wanted to work. I can configure EAGLE to work exactly how I want which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I was however getting a bit disheartened with the lack of progress by the end of v7 though which I guess is one of the reasons I am quite able to accept the less popular changes since v8 came along, because for me the features I always hoped would be implemented are starting to get implemented.

So, apologies if I got a bit "preachy". It's just I think everything that can be said about the licensing has been said a thousand times already (*Disclaimer, this is just an expression, I haven't actually counted  :P) and it's not doing anybody on either side of the argument any good to keep it going.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #103 on: April 25, 2018, 05:30:20 pm »
This is personal for you, isn't it?

No, it isn't. Autodesk screwed us and now I have to be quiet? I don't think so.

Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.



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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #104 on: April 25, 2018, 05:35:53 pm »
Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.

Oh, that applies to me as well now? Doesn't take much to get into your bad books... I do like it "here", I just don't like your attitude. Fortunately the forum software has ways to deal with that.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #105 on: April 25, 2018, 05:38:11 pm »
Please take a step back and reconsider.

Like I said before, if you don't like it here, you are free to go to autodesks' forum.

Oh, that applies to me as well now? Doesn't take much to get into your bad books... I do like it "here", I just don't like your attitude. Fortunately the forum software has ways to deal with that.

Excellent. Problem solved. No need for you to continue whining.
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Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #106 on: April 25, 2018, 08:03:24 pm »
:-DD

Again, I am NOT an Autodesk employee :D I'm just an EAGLE user. Granted I do like it quite a lot and I am not afraid to say so. But then I came from using DxDesigner / PADS a few years back and those tools drove me insane with their clunkiness and rigid workflows which didn't at all fit with how I wanted to work. I can configure EAGLE to work exactly how I want which is one of the reasons I like it so much. I was however getting a bit disheartened with the lack of progress by the end of v7 though which I guess is one of the reasons I am quite able to accept the less popular changes since v8 came along, because for me the features I always hoped would be implemented are starting to get implemented.

So, apologies if I got a bit "preachy". It's just I think everything that can be said about the licensing has been said a thousand times already (*Disclaimer, this is just an expression, I haven't actually counted  :P) and it's not doing anybody on either side of the argument any good to keep it going.

Heck, as far as I'm concerned, they should be paying you.  You've been extremely helpful to users of CadSoft's (and now Autodesk)'s product for years.  :-+  And not excessively preachy about it, IMHO, for what it's worth.  8)

I did not have you in mind when I wrote that post, which was itself a bit of an exercise in hypocrisy.
 
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #107 on: April 26, 2018, 02:24:37 am »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.


Hi ehughes,

We have test builds of this feature going already. Should make it into a production release soon. Stay tuned.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #108 on: April 27, 2018, 02:26:13 am »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #109 on: April 27, 2018, 03:16:57 am »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.


Hi ehughes,

We have test builds of this feature going already. Should make it into a production release soon. Stay tuned.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

This may be the single most persistant annoyance  - hope to see it soon. Snap to 45 will be excellent.

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #110 on: April 27, 2018, 03:41:53 am »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.

Hi Deridex,

I hope you're doing well. The hero products at Autodesk (AutoCAD, Inventor, Maya, etc) have a few other options for implementing the subscription license, so perhaps at some point we may be able to use those options as well. However, there are no immediate plans for this.

Thanks for asking.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #111 on: April 27, 2018, 04:14:00 am »

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?

Hi rx8pilot,

When using the push/shove mode the trace will move existing traces around, it does a full push/shove operation. Currently it can't handle vias but that is in the plan for a future release.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are asking? Could you clarify?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #112 on: April 27, 2018, 04:21:58 am »

Is possible to edit an existing trace in push/shove mode?

Hi rx8pilot,

When using the push/shove mode the trace will move existing traces around, it does a full push/shove operation. Currently it can't handle vias but that is in the plan for a future release.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you are asking? Could you clarify?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

[Good chance I am doing something wrong]

I have been loving the push/shove function while laying new traces. What I am asking is ~after~ a trace is routed - it appears that push/shove no longer works if I simply click a previously routed trace and move it around. I essentially looks like it goes back to free routing and allows me to put the trace anywhere.

The new 'Quick Route' looks like a tremendous addition, although I have not yet tried it myself yet.
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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #113 on: April 27, 2018, 04:41:25 am »
Hi rx8pilot,

Thanks for clarifying. Currently Push/Shove is only working in the route command, however we will improve move to have the push and shove functionality as well. It's on our todo list. ;)

You're not doing anything wrong, move just can push yet.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #114 on: April 27, 2018, 06:52:06 am »
Is there any chance that eagle will get someday something like a private license-server like Altium ?
I think that would reduce the costs for companies quite alot.

Hi Deridex,

I hope you're doing well. The hero products at Autodesk (AutoCAD, Inventor, Maya, etc) have a few other options for implementing the subscription license, so perhaps at some point we may be able to use those options as well. However, there are no immediate plans for this.

Thanks for asking.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Thank you for your answer.
I can only recommend to move this point a bit higher on the priorities-list. I think it's something that might be able to convince developementdepartments to use eagle.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #115 on: April 27, 2018, 08:59:19 am »
1. I don't really care much about confusion over the subscription.

Actually, if you are going to comment on this.. really you really, really should care.  The reasons is that if you condone bad corporate behaviour, then the corporates will continue to do it. 


Quote
2. I seriously doubt that the guy that said they were not going that direction had any idea the Autodesk was about to take over the hopes, dreams, and culture of the CadSoft world. During an acquisition - it often feels like it is going to be one big happy family. Later, they realize it is a cold dictatorship and their opinons are squashed like little insects.

No.  Matt was in a position to know - he flipped on his original statement.  Now whether he was dictated to by up on high or or not is irrelevant - you don't make one statement and then turn around and do something else without explaining yourself.  Times changes and sometimes we have to reverse our decisions, but if your customers are the ones who are directly affected by this, then it is vitally important that you articulate yourself well, and make it clear.  You all also need to provide options and solutions to those who you have right and royally torpedoed with a change. 

Autodesk did *NONE* of that, and this is what made their actions all the more deplorable. 

In fact I would say you would be hard pressed to have handled what they did any *worse*


Quote
I have built/sold two businesses and worked for 2 others that were sold. It is a confusing mess.

3. Again, this argument/discussion is largely based on emotions.

Yes and no. 

I am forever saying that subscriptions are not inherently evil - it is how they are implemented that either makes them evil or not.  The method that Autodesk chose to implement for "enforcement" of this particular subscription model is what makes it a terrible choice.  You can't just package up your build environment into a VM and tuck it away for future reference.  Heaven help you if like me, you spend inordinate amounts of time in the middle of no-where. 

Maintaining support for stuff in the industrial space for 15-20 years is the "norm" ... *NOT* the exception.  Not being able to tuck your license up like this is problematic for a whole bunch of reasons.  Autodesk isn't alone in this (I can list a whole bunch of other vendors off the top of my head which also do this), and I honestly believe that organisations that pull this kind of crap need to go bust. 

   This kind of crap HAS TO STOP

The thing is the world doesn't revolve around the industrials - the money is in the consumer space and the rules there are a whole lot different. 

Where this *does* become emotional is when *you* have to personally put your hand in your own pocket because of a corporates bad behaviour.  I have had to personally do this with switching from Eagle (my previously preferred vendor) to KiCad ... and let's be honest here ... as far as KiCad has come ... its got a *lot* of room for improvement.  When I did this, it personally cost me just shy of 50k AUD to convert everything across (I still use my V7 licenses because there are things in KiCad that I just *loath* and a lot of my old workflows simply don't port over very well). 

So, am I massively pissed off at Autodesk?  You bet. 
Am I justified when a organisation decides to alter the terms of use for the tool that I base my living on?  Pretty much. 

So yes, in my particular case (and I can only ever comment on my own particular case), I am emotional as it has personally cost me a lot of money - money which I really didn't have to spend. 

WARNING!!!
   Small children or those with sensitive eyes ... look away ... it's time to get "emotional".

<emotional mode on!>

Ultimately Autodesk bought the tool and they have every right to do with it as they choose. 

By the same token, I also have every right to call out the low-life-piece-of-shit MBA wankers that they are when they pull shenanigans like this. 

... and do note that I specifically say MBA wanker as I've never met an engineer who would deliberately lower themselves to this level of barstardry ...

   ... except for maybe those at Apple ....
   ... and the inventors of the BGA package ... 

<emotional mode off>

Hows that ... emotional enough?   :)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 09:45:41 am by bgm »
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 
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Offline bgm

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #116 on: April 27, 2018, 12:27:06 pm »
I'm subscribed to this forum, but for some reason haven't been getting messages. Looks like I have missed quite a bit.

Hi Jorge,  Long time no speak.  Yeah, I've been away a bit as well, but unlike you, I've been back to being in the middle of no-where. 

Quote
For those who are still harping on subscription

As I have said, over and over and over again, subscription isn't the issue. 

It is "implementation" that was the actual pain point.  It is the implementation of that subscription system that has caused the pain, misery and general suffering.  I "subscribe" to a bunch of software products (VMware, dbVisualiser, etc).  They all have subscriptions models.  The difference is that they didn't try to be arseholes about it, demanding this always on connection bullshit, nor do they decide to turn everything off at an arbitrary point in time. 

No pay the dollars, no updates for you.  I have absolutely *no* problems with that. 

But to need to contact a license server to just use the software.  I'm sorry ... that has knobs (with barbs) all over it (think of that scene in Little Nikita with the Devil, Hitler and the pineapple) even with that 14 (or is it now 30) days grace?  Considering last time I was away in the middle of no-where, I was away from 3 months.  How useful would that have been to me? 

Subscription and implementation ... two different issues. 


Quote
For those of you who feel that subscription is killing EAGLE, the numbers just don't reflect that. At this point in time EAGLE has more users than it did under Cadsoft, and this is largely due to the pace of development and all of the enhancements that have been made to EAGLE. You can say that is false, call me a liar, of course I have to say that, etc. That won't change the facts, we have more users now then we did before.

Simply saying "subscription is the reason" isn't tell the whole truth. 

Lets play a simple what-if game.  Lets assume that v7 was done wholly on subscription (and let's not pretend it was the braindead one the is in current use, but lets assume it was good implementation).  How much would it have affected the numbers?  I'm guessing ... probably not a whole lot.  Maybe 15%. 

What has changed most is the development .. *that* is probably what is driving the majority of your numbers. 

Finally, off all the people in Autodesk, I have more time for your word than any of your employers management - hold your head high on that one (you have nothing to apologise for there). 


Quote
However, If you find that it just isn't for you then I want you to be productive, I want you to use a tool that you are happy to use and make a living with. EAGLE can be that tool, it is for many users and I would want it to be the tool for everyone (it's what Autodesk is shooting for as well, for whatever that is worth) but I know you can't please everyone. This is especially true with EAGLE, with all the drastic changes that have happened.

When we finally bit the bullet and migrated, and it was neither a smooth nor a cheap process to change tool (anyone who says is it is, is completely and utterly full of shit).  I'm still burning because I'm still using *both* tools (the new is .. well ... lacking in certain areas). 

In future, don't treat your customers with contempt.  If you do, you won't have them for very long.  We shifted because you simply didn't leave us with a choice.  Our work environment isn't going to change and the Autodesk subscription implementation is retarted to the point that it is unworkable in a disconnected environment (for example ... in the middle of no-where). 

For Autodesk to improve it's profitability, it damn near sent me to the wall.  Don't expect me to particularly happy or pleased about that.  I still watch what happens with Eagle as I still use it (v7 premium for now), and I make *no* bones nor pull any punches in regard to my opinion of the subscription licensing implementation - it is complete and utter shit. 


...actually there an advertising slogan for you:
  Eagle 9 ... all new and improved.  Better layout, cool features and still with a shit licensing system!  GET IT NOW!!!   

Yes I know, I'm being silly .... 

On the more serious side though, this still does not even for one minute deal with the other elephant in the room and that is in regard to long term support (5+ years), something which I have responded to others about in other threads because we come across it *all* the time - especially when SaaS tools are used.  That isn't just bad ... it's a form of evil that you simply cannot fathom until you have to deal with. 

... put simply if anyone is using the current version of Eagle (8 and 9) with the current licensing system for anything needs to be supported well into the future...  they are clinically insane. 

Anyway ... enough of this.  Good so see you back.  Make sure you've donned the flame proof undies and have fun! 
/BGM
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #117 on: April 27, 2018, 12:53:19 pm »
bgm, we already kept the lights on long enough at Cadsoft to complete the time-consuming process of building reputation. Autodesk doesn't need us anymore. They are perfectly content to gain profits by replacing their existing user base with a new one which will Stockholm themselves into apologizing as customers for the fact that bugs are added monthly, and won't have any uncomfortable questions about long term support. Autodesk bought name recognition, not a pile of old customers who don't want to rent software.
 
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Online rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #118 on: April 28, 2018, 11:28:36 am »
bgm, we already kept the lights on long enough at Cadsoft to complete the time-consuming process of building reputation. Autodesk doesn't need us anymore.

I only paid once for Eagle and never upgraded because the development never justified it. They only got around $600 or so from me for 4 years. That is about 2 minutes of operating expenses perhaps.

For those that want to see the new stuff and also have tons of time....



I did have some play time and the new features are really nice. It will take some time to dig through them all - there are a lot of improvements. Most of them seem practical and useful too. Schematic and layout got a lot of attention. A whole lot to take in and learn. I have a habit of not learning the new features on software because I have learned to work around the previous limitations. It is important that I take the time to learn the new stuff so that I can take advantage of the improvements.

The design manager is awesome. The auto-finish routing tool is really handy. I am pretty happy to see Eagle pushing forward into the territory of professional. Some of the details that are still missing apparently are in the works.

Still total shit.....the graphics engine. I really wish the layer transparency was usable. It still has this horrible hash-shading that makes it difficult to see through layers. Altium has this down and it makes life much easier (being able to see what you are doing).

Overall....I am really happy to see consistent progress. I think Eagle is not up to about the expectations I had in about 2006-2007. That is upgraded from the previous version that I placed around 2000-2002. At the rate they are going, Eagle will be up to 2018 in about 1-2 years. Not bad.

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Offline Corporate666

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #119 on: April 29, 2018, 02:50:50 pm »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.

You're not being honest.  You can say they don't care about the opinion of their customers who are angry that they went subscription, but don't pretend to speak for me and others who are happily subscribing to the software because you don't speak for us.  And you speak for a minority of users, not for their customers as a whole.  Autodesk is doing best for their customers by serving the majority, not by catering to a whining minority that continues to whine after being told they no longer want your business.  It's getting frankly embarrassing - it's like a girl telling you she isn't interested in you anymore but you keep coming around and telling her your demands if she ever expects to date you again.  She's moved on and she's much happier now.  She doesn't want you anymore!

I just subscribed to Eagle.  The previous version was ridiculously expensive for how shit the software was.  I just spent $100 for a year license.  The previous version was $600 if you got standard ($800 with the autorouter), or $1200 for pro ($1600 with the autorouter).  And Cadsoft was painfully slow to release new versions, updates or bug fixes.  Autodesk has made some huge improvements quickly.  At this rate, I'll have to subscribe for 10-15 years to come out even to where I would have been with CadSoft on day one... and that's if Autodesk wasn't putting some serious development effort into this software.  But they are, so I am coming out way ahead.

Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore. 
It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 
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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #120 on: April 29, 2018, 02:55:22 pm »
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore.

But she took all my CDs with her..
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #121 on: April 29, 2018, 04:52:28 pm »
Interresting how fast this topic goes into personal attacks  |O

I can just try to explain my side of view:
My view is of a developementdepartment. Here we got as example ... let's just say 15 guys that sometimes need a EDA-Tool. So, if i see this correctly, we got here about 15x the subscription, because it's simply not doable to active the sub as soon someone needs one.

Now let's think about this with Altium as example: You can set up a private license-server with way less licenses.
If i calculate right, you are a fter a few years cheaper than eagle. And this is just crazy, because i think Altium is still way more powerful than eagle.

For hobby use i would actually go for Diptrace or Circuitstudio if i feel like KiCad is not enough.


Edit: Thanks to rx8pilot: I did not know that eagle now offers shareable licenses.

Then in my sight only 1 realy bad point about the subscription stays: What happens if Autodesk shuts down the servers.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 05:33:34 pm by Deridex »
 

Online rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #122 on: April 29, 2018, 05:26:52 pm »
You can share Eagle licenses....I have it on multiple computers but can only use one at a time. Similar to a network license or dongle.
Just figure out how many simultaneous users you need.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #123 on: April 29, 2018, 05:57:10 pm »
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, ...

I offered Autodesk the full price for a V7 pro license. They dont want to sell me one.
There was no advance warning and no grace period.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline macegr

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  • Posts: 79
  • Country: us
Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #124 on: April 30, 2018, 12:00:29 pm »
Quote
Stop being cheap bastards and pay for what you use, or else find other software that works better and use that.  Kicad is available and Diptrace and other stuff too - or keep using the existing licensed version of Eagle.  But Eagle V8/V9 has broken up with you and isn't interested in dating you anymore.  Time to move on and stop showing up at her house and telling her how bad she is for ditching you and what it will take for her to win you back.  She doesn't want you back - she's got a new guy with lots of money and she isn't thinking about you at all anymore.

To correct the analogy a bit; we're married, own a house together, and have kids. Now she has a new guy in the bedroom, has changed the locks, and wants to charge me rent.
 


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