Author Topic: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?  (Read 8826 times)

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Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #75 on: April 25, 2018, 05:48:57 am »
I'll discuss the topic if it comes up. That's not "all the time" and on "every thread" so reel that back in.

Ok I was exaggerating to make the point, but its sometimes how it feels. I wasn't meaning you specifically either, so I apologise if it appeared I was singling you out with my comment. So you are right, it's not every thread, but it's regular enough on threads relating to new EAGLE releases that it's quite frustrating.

For EAGLE v9 there are plenty of new things which could have been discussed. The new design manager in the layout tool, also the changes to the rip tool. In the schematic there is the new bus manager, component breakout etc. Very little, to do with real features got discussed, just licensing.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 05:57:40 am by rachaelp »
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #76 on: April 25, 2018, 06:05:31 am »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion.

That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription. What's yours? If you want to talk about features rather than the subscription, perhaps lead by example instead of only posting in here to do damage control?
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #77 on: April 25, 2018, 06:07:38 am »
3. Again, this argument/discussion is largely based on emotions.
Apparently you missed the discussion about archiving.

A monthly (or even annual) subscription tool is an unworkable model for a product that must be maintained over years or even decades. Many contracts require maintaining source materials and the tools to "compile" the product to maintain/update it over its lifetime.  You can't archive something that requires calling in to the mother-ship every few days.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #78 on: April 25, 2018, 06:12:27 am »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion. That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription.

But that's exactly what makes those posts rather boring -- they do not add anything new to the discussion.
So why do you post them? For the warm fuzzy feeling of being amongst like-minded peers?  :P
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #79 on: April 25, 2018, 06:15:08 am »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion. That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription.

But that's exactily what makes those posts rather boring -- they do not add anything new to the discussion.
So why do you post them? For the warm fuzzy feeling of being amongst like-minded peers?  :P

Oh, well it relates to the promise I made to Matt. I'm going to publicly mention my dissatisfaction with the subscription model at least once per year, until either one of us dies or Eagle is discontinued, or offers a permanent license option (negating my main concerns).
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #80 on: April 25, 2018, 06:18:37 am »
Does the "standard" version include auto-routing? 
I can't find any simple answer to this on the website. 
Heavy on whizzy eye-candy and short on hard details.   :--
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #81 on: April 25, 2018, 06:25:37 am »
This forum is full of people who agree with Dave's take on the situation (not really a surprise?) so it's going to be full of people with a similar opinion.

I hope there would be a majority of people who hold their own opinions and not just agree with everything Dave says :D

That's the explanation for why most of my posts about Eagle in this forum are about the subscription. What's yours? If you want to talk about features rather than the subscription, perhaps lead by example instead of only posting in here to do damage control?

Lead by example? I've mentioned features to possibly discuss twice now and both times it's been turned back round to this same argument straight away. Again, I am not doing damage control, I am just an EAGLE user, I have no need to be doing damage control.
I have a weakness for Test Equipment so can often be found having a TEA break (http://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #82 on: April 25, 2018, 06:28:18 am »
Lead by example? I've mentioned features to possibly discuss twice now and both times it's been turned back round to this same argument straight away. Again, I am not doing damage control, I am just an EAGLE user, I have no need to be doing damage control.

Sure, it's just that you don't come in here to discuss features either. You come in to defend Autodesk.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #83 on: April 25, 2018, 06:29:09 am »
I'm going to publicly mention my dissatisfaction with the subscription model at least once per year, until either one of us dies or Eagle is discontinued...

Sit back and relay; you have already built a stockpile that will last you a lifetime...
 
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #84 on: April 25, 2018, 06:32:47 am »
Can't rest on my laurels yet; someone might develop an upload civilization and we might have millions of years to fight back predatory subscription models.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #85 on: April 25, 2018, 06:41:59 am »
Let's discuss the new ripup tool. How's it treating you Eagle 9 users? Does it rip up too much, or not rip up enough? Thoughts?
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #86 on: April 25, 2018, 06:56:46 am »
Hi Guys,

It seems things have gotten a little out of hand again. :-\

I'm subscribed to this forum, but for some reason haven't been getting messages. Looks like I have missed quite a bit.

For those who are still harping on subscription, the best thing I can suggest is to get it all out. Say everything you feel, how upset you are about the situation, how Autodesk ruined EAGLE etc. Get it all out in one go, scream at me if it helps, I just want all of the frustration to come out. Once it is all out, it's important to accept the reality of the situation. The reason it's important is because once the reality of a situation is accepted then the human tendency is to find ways to cope with said reality. The ways to cope have been discussed at length in this thread and others, I won't rehash them here. Subscription is not going away, Autodesk has transitioned to subscription for all new purchases of all of their products. For those of you who feel that subscription is killing EAGLE, the numbers just don't reflect that. At this point in time EAGLE has more users than it did under Cadsoft, and this is largely due to the pace of development and all of the enhancements that have been made to EAGLE. You can say that is false, call me a liar, of course I have to say that, etc. That won't change the facts, we have more users now then we did before.

I understand the anger, and in a certain sense it's comforting because it shows that you guys still care about EAGLE, otherwise you wouldn't bother. It's been 15 months of Autodesk stewardship, you guys have seen what the result has been, not going to reitirate it. I encourage those of you who are still angry to get it all out, if you want to go to our forums feel free. Once it's all out, then do what's best for you. There is unfortunately, a lot of misinformation about so if something isn't clear just ask and if I know the answer I'll give it to you if I don't then I'll find out for you guys. Look at what EAGLE offers you now, understand your options and make a decision. For some of you how EAGLE is now works for you and makes sense, that's awesome! However, If you find that it just isn't for you then I want you to be productive, I want you to use a tool that you are happy to use and make a living with. EAGLE can be that tool, it is for many users and I would want it to be the tool for everyone (it's what Autodesk is shooting for as well, for whatever that is worth) but I know you can't please everyone. This is especially true with EAGLE, with all the drastic changes that have happened.

Let's not keep fighting over this because it's getting us nowhere and I'm sure it's affecting the vibe here on Dave's forum. I appreciate the passion all of you have for your work (@macegr you do awesome stuff man, keep it up) and I'm here to help with EAGLE in whatever way I can. I hope this in some way helps to move things forward, and if it doesn't then I'm sure I'll hear about it soon enough. :)

Thanks everyone, as always let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia


 
 
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #87 on: April 25, 2018, 06:58:26 am »
Hi Richard,

Yes it does. The autorouter is included in all editions of EAGLE now.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #88 on: April 25, 2018, 07:25:38 am »
I'll consider putting the issue aside after Eagle has successfully existed with a built-in remote kill switch as long as it existed beforehand. That will prove to my satisfaction that subscriptions work as a long-term software model. See you in 25 years...
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #89 on: April 25, 2018, 08:35:43 am »

It seems things have gotten a little out of hand again. :-\

Emotions are best for romantic relationships.....not analyzing the merits of software and the companies that develop that software.

Factory400 - the worlds smallest factory. http://www.youtube.com/c/Factory400
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #90 on: April 25, 2018, 09:02:33 am »
I dumped Eagle for day to day use well before the subscription thing came about, so it really only cements my decision to never even consider looking at Autodesk products again. The reason it's still a thorn in my side is that rental software is a cancer that is spreading throughout the industry and I will continue to speak out against it as long as this trend continues. On the bright side, it has been a huge boost to open source alternatives which are getting far more attention than they did previously. It's to the point where open source can meet *almost* all of my daily needs. Anything that can be done to undermine the subscription-only cancer is worth doing. In the end the only solution is to avoid using any of it, and continue to advocate others avoid using it, that's the only way any company will ever listen. It's already been made abundantly clear that Autodesk doesn't give a crap about the opinions of their customers but if they lose enough customers perhaps they'll start to change their tune.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #91 on: April 25, 2018, 09:22:27 am »
Emotions are best for romantic relationships.....not analyzing the merits of software and the companies that develop that software.
I appreciate your contributions to the forum and the work you do, but insisting people respond on an emotional basis doesn't really help the discussion. Especially since articulated arguments aren't addressed. Any other person I would have considered a troll at this point, but your consistently level-headed and good natured replies on this site tell me your posts are probably not intended as such.

Might it be an idea to continue this discussion elsewhere, where there's room for your response to the arguments posted before?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 09:28:20 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #92 on: April 25, 2018, 09:30:41 am »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #93 on: April 25, 2018, 09:31:06 am »
I was mere minutes from dumping Eagle.....until they started actively developing and offered a subscription. Your 'cancer' is my opportunity to get all of my design software updated and it all works way better than the stuff I owned (and spent massive $$$ for).

Altium has an excellent Eagle import so if Eagle/Autodesk burns me or I get frustrated for any reason.....Altium transition is only a $10k check away and a couple months of learning a new system.

The data is not lost.

I would have considered a troll at this point, but your consistently level-headed and good natured replies on this site tell me your posts are probably not intended as such.

May it be an idea to continue this discussion elsewhere, where there's room for your response to the arguments posted before?

Clearly, I don't mean to stir up a conflict - but I am honestly baffled at this conversation. To me, it is quite simple, yet many of the the posts show me people that are angry. They (appear to be) personally offended, malipulated, lied to, etc......
All I see is a failry normal business pivot in the midst of a confusing transition period.

Without Autdesk - Eagle would have continued to slowly die. With Autdesk, Eagle has a new chance at life, but only becuase they abandoned the old ways of thinking (for better or for worse). There is no change that would keep everyone happy.....but it appears they are gaining ground overall. I cannot fault them for wanting to survive long enough to eventually thrive.

If nothing else...they are turning up the heat for Altium and any other players in the commercial space.



Factory400 - the worlds smallest factory. http://www.youtube.com/c/Factory400
 
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Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #94 on: April 25, 2018, 09:36:28 am »
I don't think there's really anything more to discuss. He has made it abundantly clear that Autodesk as made up their mind, doesn't care in the slightest about the opinions of their customers and that is that. Their way or the highway. The only thing that will ever change their mind is if their current trajectory fails to earn money.

They are listening, but have to make a binary choice - perpetual or subscription.

I doubt the choice was made for any other reason than the beleif that the profitibility would be bolstered. That is the only reason they are in business - make money. My guess is that they are gaining customers and cash flow. You are right, if it fails to make money, they will re-consider.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #95 on: April 25, 2018, 09:38:07 am »
I was mere minutes from dumping Eagle.....until they started actively developing and offered a subscription. Your 'cancer' is my opportunity to get all of my design software updated and it all works way better than the stuff I owned (and spent massive $$$ for).

Honestly I think offering a subscription is a fantastic idea, clearly it meets the needs of some customers quite well.

The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #96 on: April 25, 2018, 09:44:20 am »
The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.

Not sure if this is still true, but Adobe was doing both for a while. I am presently on subscription with them.

It is a business analysis question on both sides. I was on Eagle 6.xx and just about to dive into something else, but mainly because Eagle was not going anywhere. My more expensive software was getting old (and unstable), but I literally did not have the money to do anything about it.

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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #97 on: April 25, 2018, 10:16:46 am »
My bank changed my credit card number (apparently yet another data breach putting my number at risk?)
That broke my monthly payment to Adobe for Creative Cloud and they have been hounding me ever since to pay up.
But it just isn't worth $50/month for a bunch of apps that I will never use just for the 2-3 that I was using occasionally.

I downloaded Audacity to replace Adobe Audition.  Although I am going to be trying Waves/Tracks Live and Reaper also.
And I downloaded Blackmagic Design Davinci Resolve to replace Adobe Premiere.

https://www.waves.com/mixers-racks/tracks-live#presenting-tracks-live
https://www.reaper.fm/
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/
 

Offline ehughes

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #98 on: April 25, 2018, 10:49:26 am »
It looks like eagle is going in the right direction.  The routing tools are much better.    There is a key routing feature still missing:   The ability to grab a trace after a route and drag without it generating odd angle paths.     Altium will maintain the 45's, etc as you adjust the miter (as well as hug/push/shove).    Eagle would be very useful if it could do this.

The other general problem I can see with all low end software is that there is significant time in managing the artifacts of the design (assembly drawings, BOM, etc)     It would be nice if future versions could offer more in terms of managing the flow of output data.

As far as subscription goes,  I think it was the best thing Autodesk could have done.      There is actually work being done on the product!




 

Online KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #99 on: April 25, 2018, 10:54:24 am »
The cancer is offering subscription *only* while politely telling their existing users to fuck off.

Not sure if this is still true, but Adobe was doing both for a while. I am presently on subscription with them.

So am I, and because I'm not a photographer or graphic artist with tons of work product tied up in .PSD files, I'm fine with that.  If I were, I'd be as annoyed with Adobe as I am with Autodesk. 

I don't mind paying for a Creative Cloud subscription because there are plenty of other programs that edit .BMPs and .PNGs.  If Photoshop becomes unusable, obsolete, or unlicensable for any reason in the future, I'll shrug my shoulders and move on with life.  I don't have that luxury when it comes to my .SCH and .BRD files.

Quote
They are listening, but have to make a binary choice - perpetual or subscription.

No, they absolutely do not have to do any such thing.  They could offer both, and let the customer decide.  "But if we offer perpetual licenses, we'll have to actually work for a living!" is not a good business model for anyone but a predatory monopolist. 

In this thread, we've been frequently reminded of all the Great New Features That Are Finally Being Added to EAGLE.  But if that's the case, and continuous improvements and enhancements are on the way, then the subscription model shouldn't be necessary to drive revenue.

(Another point worth making: those who are sympathetic to Autodesk's plight are welcome to disagree with the anti-subscription sentiment, but unless their name is Dave Jones, they have no business preaching about what is and is not acceptable for discussion in the thread.)
 
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