Author Topic: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?  (Read 12073 times)

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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2018, 03:21:31 am »
Sorry, this is The FutureTM where it's silly to own or control your software. If you don't like that, please consider that Everyone Else Is Doing It and use this as a basis for your business decisions.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2018, 03:35:07 am »
I could always go back to Solidworks, Mastercam, and purchase Altium Designer on top of that. It will only require that I write a check for $29,000 and enjoy about $3,000+/annually for maintenance. But I would own and control it while being out of cash and out of business.

While I am homeless, I could potentially rig my shopping cart with enough batteries to run a laptop and offer engineering services to random people for food?

I know that heavy-handed subscription models make some people cringe - but they serve a critical purpose. They allow a business like mine to have access to a suite of software products that I simply do not have the money to purchase outright. I am able to accomplish FAR more with a subscription to Eagle and Fusion 360 than I am able to accomplish with a non-existent license of Altium Designer, Solidworks, and Mastercam.

Eagle has issues - no question. The roll-out of new features is generally messy. The managed library is the biggest mess overall. All of its problems still do not add up to the massive money and learning curve of switching to a new system.
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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2018, 03:45:06 am »
I once knew of a product to fill the niche between incomplete free software and expensive enterprise packages. A product where you could just buy a license, cost less than $2000 a seat, and while it may not be cutting edge was at least quite clean of bugs and usable, and isn't intentionally kneecapped. A product where a small business owner didn't have to choose between control of their tools, or homelessness.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2018, 03:53:10 am »
I once knew of a product to fill the niche between incomplete free software and expensive enterprise packages. A product where you could just buy a license, cost less than $2000 a seat, and while it may not be cutting edge was at least quite clean of bugs and usable, and isn't intentionally kneecapped. A product where a small business owner didn't have to choose between control of their tools, or homelessness.

Are you talking about the old Eagle?

If so - they could not make it work as a business. The next owner could not make it work. The latest owner is taking on a big gamble - but they probably have a better chance since they have a longer runway and the ability to parallel it with Fusion 360.

If Eagle was not an Autodesk owned subscription service - it would literally be gone. While that would not immediately brick all existing users - I need current and support software on way or another. I was considering the Altium Circuit Studio as a stepping stone to a full seat of Altium Designer.

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Offline KE5FX

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2018, 08:09:35 am »
If so - they could not make it work as a business. The next owner could not make it work. The latest owner is taking on a big gamble - but they probably have a better chance since they have a longer runway and the ability to parallel it with Fusion 360.

I'm a software guy who tinkers with hardware, rather than the other way around, so I (think I) have a useful perspective as a longtime EAGLE user.  Basically, Autodesk bought the name EAGLE.  They didn't receive any software IP of any particular value going forward.  Trying to "cloud-ify" a 20+ year old program like EAGLE while bringing it up to modern UI standards would be an Augean task.  If the necessary changes were easy ones to make, CadSoft would already have made them.  Instead, the code base has been passed from one acquirer to the next like a hot radioactive potato.

So if Autodesk thought they were getting an actual finished product to sell, or even one that could be profitably maintained through incremental development, then they made a big mistake, and by now they'll have realized that.  I doubt that's the case, because the Autodesk guys are not newbies in the software industry.

If they did know what they were getting into, then we can assume that they allocated a team of strong, experienced CAD developers to the product at the time of acquisition.  This team will have been dedicated to the task of rewriting the package from scratch, with nothing retained except the .brd, .sch, and .lbr formats.  They will be working entirely behind the scenes, and will continue to do so for some time to come.  The resulting product will carry the name EAGLE forward for the next 20+ years.  However, unlike the current monolithic executable, it will be engineered with modern tools and practices to grow and evolve from day one. 

And that's the point at which a subscription-based licensing model begins to make sense.  What they are selling now is a stopgap measure which doesn't.  A screwed-up library manager is the least of the grief that users can expect if Autodesk continues down this path.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2018, 08:35:40 am »
It appears that they are taking the approach that a state highway department does when they have to completely re-do a major part of the freeway without totally shutting it down in the process. For a long time, it gets messy and possibly worse, followed by a nice finished product.

I would guess they are approaching it by modules - the library, routing, UI, etc. Not sure how it was coded or if that would make any sense. Autodesk did buy a large enough user base to probably break even on a development round but would have to attract new business to make it a success. I have no idea if they have what it takes to make it happen. Eagle overall is much better than my old CADSoft version - Autodesk has indeed stepped it up. They do, however, have a quite a way to go. Hope they stick it out.

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Offline macegr

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2018, 09:18:16 am »
Quote
It appears that they are taking the approach that a state highway department does when they have to completely re-do a major part of the freeway without totally shutting it down in the process. For a long time, it gets messy and possibly worse, followed by a nice finished product.

Well, they are renting you an EDA package with CAD integration. I believe you were expecting the product to do what it says on the tin, rather than 10 miles of traffic jams for a few years. If you knew it was unstable in-development software would you have based your business decision around that? Or kept looking for some software that does fulfill your requirements?

It turns out that nobody wants to pay for software that is still in beta with no end in sight, so marketing teams just don't say that it's in beta.
 

Online Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #157 on: July 19, 2018, 02:43:03 am »
Jesus, tried the new V9.1.1 the other day and what a clunky turd of an interface it has now!
EAGLE has never been renowned for its interface, but at least the old one was relatively clean, I thought that V8 was bad but wow!
As a long time V7< user who has since moved away, I am thoroughly unimpressed with what Autodesk has done with it.

Thank goodness for V7
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #158 on: July 19, 2018, 03:42:33 am »
Jesus, tried the new V9.1.1 the other day and what a clunky turd of an interface it has now!
EAGLE has never been renowned for its interface, but at least the old one was relatively clean, I thought that V8 was bad but wow!
As a long time V7< user who has since moved away, I am thoroughly unimpressed with what Autodesk has done with it.

Thank goodness for V7

I have not noticed the UI being anymore clunky - although it is different in some respects. Many of the tools have new options if you don't know what they are it is just confusing. The efforts in documentation are behind the development rollouts.

I went from V6 to the last release of V8 and had no real trouble related to UI.
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Offline TomS_

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #159 on: October 20, 2018, 08:01:41 am »


This is more affirmation that the subscription method is killing the product, everyone seems to get it except Autodesk! I mean, don't they notice the few people who buy it vs what they expected?!

[citation needed]
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #160 on: October 20, 2018, 06:31:25 pm »
I really don't see the point of using Eagle anymore.
Professionals use Orcad/Altium/Zuken/Cadence/etc.
Hobbyists/makers use Kicad.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online timgiles

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #161 on: October 20, 2018, 06:56:43 pm »
Well I find the recent improvements (12 months) to be welcome. The new Design Manager interface is great, makes it much easier to switch between nets, view useful info when dropping diff. pairs, have close at hand info on via counts etc.. and Airwires left. But I am sure that for more professional people out there it is still the 'this is not AD' software interface that is seen by many as the gold standard. Autodesk to their credit is improving Eagle by leaps and bounds. I have tried a few open source alternatives but with the recent improvements am glad I stuck with Eagle.

Still not sure why subscription based licensing gets so many peoples backs up. It is cheaper in the short term, you can generally try something for a bit and jump ship without a large capital outlay. And from the software companies perspective, they have a steady revenue stream and can thus plan a long term strategy.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #162 on: October 21, 2018, 03:40:36 am »
Still not sure why subscription based licensing gets so many peoples backs up. It is cheaper in the short term, you can generally try something for a bit and jump ship without a large capital outlay. And from the software companies perspective, they have a steady revenue stream and can thus plan a long term strategy.

It's because people like to own stuff, most people want to own their things rather than rent everything, we want to feel like we have control. With rental software it's yet another monthly payment, yet another wallet vampire, it can feel like getting nickel & dimed to death. There are quite a few people like myself out there who do not upgrade to the latest version frequently, for example I bought a copy of MS Office 2003 and have been using that same version for 15 years. If you look at the marketing for subscription versions of Office the price will always be compared against upgrading to the latest version every time but who does that? 15 years of subscribing at a "low" monthly price would be hugely more expensive than continuing to use the old version. The greatest factor is still probably control though, we've all seen countless companies go under, restructure, change direction, change pricing, abandon products, etc. I'm not going to invest in a software package by creating a bunch of content when I cannot have the option of sticking with the last good version before they decided to change it around and ruin it, or discontinue it. No way, no how, this is not negotiable.

On top of all that there is still the issue that Autodesk flat out LIED, saying they had no plans to take it subscription only very shortly before doing just that. It is an absolute certainty that they already had plans to go subscription, big companies don't make decisions like that at the last moment.
 

Online Wilksey

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #163 on: October 21, 2018, 04:17:42 am »
Subscription is more expensive for people who already owned Eagle and didn't need to "try" it for a month.

I still have V7 licensed, and it still works just as well as it did back when it was released.

There is nothing in the later releases that I can't find using free tools.

I don't understand Eagle's place in the market anymore.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #164 on: October 21, 2018, 05:47:24 am »
The other problem with software subscription is lifecycle management.
If you made a uC product and compiled the firmware with v3.0 of a toolsuite you want to be able to do that same thing five years later if some nasty bug turned up or some customer want an extra feature.
You really don't want to first get the firmware to compile and build with the latest v6.3 software to find that it does not work and you sure don't want to find out that that company dropped the compiler in its entirety since sales were down.
From backups you want to be able to re-build you're entire product if needed.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #165 on: October 21, 2018, 07:55:23 am »
The other problem with software subscription is lifecycle management.
If you made a uC product and compiled the firmware with v3.0 of a toolsuite you want to be able to do that same thing five years later if some nasty bug turned up or some customer want an extra feature.
You really don't want to first get the firmware to compile and build with the latest v6.3 software to find that it does not work and you sure don't want to find out that that company dropped the compiler in its entirety since sales were down.
From backups you want to be able to re-build you're entire product if needed.

I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem. Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #166 on: October 21, 2018, 08:17:15 am »
I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem.
Yes, as long as you freeze at 7 and live with it.

Quote
Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
HA!  :-DD
All it takes is a Windows update or virus to wipe it out.
And without support, you are left dead in the water.

That is why people maintain isolated down-rev systems which never connect to the internet so that they can continue to run vintage apps like this.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #167 on: October 21, 2018, 10:49:28 am »
I can still use all the old versions of Eagle - no problem.
Yes, as long as you freeze at 7 and live with it.

Quote
Perpetual license still works and cannot be deactivated.
HA!  :-DD
All it takes is a Windows update or virus to wipe it out.
And without support, you are left dead in the water.

That is why people maintain isolated down-rev systems which never connect to the internet so that they can continue to run vintage apps like this.

It works fine on Win10 and also runs in a VM with Win7. There are not that many people that struggle with this particular issue, even if they need to refer directly to a design from 5-6-7 years earlier.

None of my old versions of Solidworks or Mastercam or CamWorks or Photoshop or Illustrator or Final Cut Pro still work and I have no support available for them. I spend a ton of $$$ for perpetual licenses and do not have any way to use them - I have converted all interesting data to newer software and I move on just like the rest of the world.

Eagle also imports very well into Altium, so if I chose to spend the big bucks and Altium transition is not that difficult. I can understand that you do not like the arrangement, but it is not all that bad. It fits my business pretty well now that they have done a pile of upgrades - fixing dumb problems and introducing a lot of new features.

The latest is far better than just 6 months ago and in a whole new league from the pre-Autodesk days. Still plenty of things missing or broken, but they are solving problems at a breakneck pace.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #168 on: October 21, 2018, 01:52:27 pm »
What is this nonsense? When I boot the program I get an immediate network access request and an error when that's denied. When I allow it, I get prompted for a login. Why would I need a login to run a program locally? I just want to view a few board files.
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #169 on: October 21, 2018, 02:12:27 pm »
Why would I need a login to run a program locally?

Welcome to the modern world, where everything is sold as a subscription based service.  On Amazon, you can even subscribe to laundry detergent etc.
 

Offline rx8pilot

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #170 on: October 21, 2018, 02:37:00 pm »
I can use old Eagle with no login and no updates or support.
I can use new Eagle with login and regular updates (that are simple to roll back).
I can use Altium for $10k + $1500 annual maintenance with no login and no direct link to 3D design.

Pick your poison. I chose the lower cost and have been rewarded with a platform that covers EE and ME design plus gets me advanced CAM, rendering, and animation.

The alternatives are a cludgey mish mash with Atium, Solidworks, Mastercam, Keyshot, etc with a total cost of nearly $30,000 plus huge annual maintenance ~$5,000. I am getting all that for $600 or so per year. Not even a decision.



Short and misplld from my mobile......

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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #171 on: October 21, 2018, 02:38:35 pm »
Welcome to the modern world, where everything is sold as a subscription based service.  On Amazon, you can even subscribe to laundry detergent etc.
Except that I don't have nor want a subscription. I want to use the free version, which doesn't require a subscription. There's no reason to have an account or require access to the internet than for the sake of it.

I just realized they pulled the same on me with Sketchbook. That's an Autodesk app too. I paid for the app because I liked it, despite a few significant bugs. A few months later they "upgraded" the app and suddenly I needed to create an account and agree to arbitrary terms and conditions to access my existing sketches saved locally on my own machine. They sold the new requirements as a benefit, because the app I paid for was now free. That application went right in the trash, and it seems Eagle will too.

Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2018, 02:40:45 pm by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #172 on: October 21, 2018, 06:09:21 pm »
Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?

Here it is: ftp://ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program/7.7/

Works without a licence with limited options but can also be used as a viewer
for bigger designs made with the professional/ultimate version.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline pointhi

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Re: Eagle 9 - any thoughts?
« Reply #173 on: October 22, 2018, 12:19:57 am »
Quote
Does anyone know a good Eagle compatible board viewer? Some people unfortunately only share Eagle files. Is the old non subscription version still around somewhere?

At least for the new eagle file format (v6+) you can now use KiCad to open and view them
 
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Offline Jefferson

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