Eagle debilitating licensing model rant

[k4rlhp]

Board size license limitation: 80*100mm; Next step for money, 100*160mm;
We have +6dB step in board area. Fine.
You shell out 168€ for that, non-commercial . Okay. Bought that around christmas '15.

Next step is 4000*4000mm
thats +60dB stepup in area for ~1600€
 

Keep calm... There is this Learn Professional license.
Drop the autorouter f() (who uses that, right?) and you get 16layers and 4000mm*4000mm board size for 582€
I could possibly do that, maybe (don't tell my wife).

I write to CadSoftEagle Germany to get my license Make Personal upgraded, and basically they tell me to drop dead.
Here's the answer, and I quote:
"Sorry, but for individuals without commercial use we have the EAGLE Make licenses only."

 
Let me rephrase for all of you (potential) Eagle users: When you are an individual user without commercial use, your maximum board size with Eagle is 160*100mm. Period.

@Cadsoft: Why the hell can't you come up with a somewhat acceptable licensing model? Or are you specifically directing people to these torrent sites because this is exactly what it looks like. Say it out aloud then! And post a link while you're at it.

Seems I've been this stupid idiot that takes the trouble to learn the tool, pay some money for it in "good faith" that I can upgrade later because the vendor is reasonable, and then end up being extorted for money when the requirements grow beyond the measly 100*160mm board size.
I won't need a 4x4m board size, ever. But a A4/letter size that you can easily produce at home would sure help.

I will go and start buying these Z-Energeia wipes now. Perhaps these guys offer a more reasonable upgrade model.
(see the eevblog #870 for clue.)

[CatalinaWOW]

I'm not an Eagle fanboy, but suspect it isn't quite as bad as you portray.  If you contact Eagle asking for the Learn Professional package I am sure you will be served.  Probably will require you to uninstall your current package and install the new package fresh.

I suspect what happened is that a new or dull employee didn't think flexibly, or thought that you wanted some form of discount on the Learn Professional package based on the money you have previously paid.

[Andy Watson]

Many years ago I stopped using Eagle for exactly this reason. There was, and it appears still is, no way to get beyond a certain board size without jumping straight to top of the range, maximum cost licensing model.

[k4rlhp]

I'm not an Eagle fanboy, but suspect it isn't quite as bad as you portray.  If you contact Eagle asking for the Learn Professional package I am sure you will be served.  Probably will require you to uninstall your current package and install the new package fresh.

I suspect what happened is that a new or dull employee didn't think flexibly, or thought that you wanted some form of discount on the Learn Professional package based on the money you have previously paid.

I specifically asked for an upgrade to Learn Professional. They could've said no upgrade, full license. Sure, maybe.
But they specifically tell what I quoted, that no license for personal non-comm. use beyond the Make version.

Oh well, the person that answered to my enquiry is working there for more than five years. At least from what a quick google search reveals.
The eagle web says for Learn: "in a non-commercial educational environment or institution". I'm sure the CadSoft German office follows this with nothing less than the famous German precision.

I guess it would be equally stupid to pretend to be "educational environment... "
After all, what's the difference whether I (or CadSoft itself) hack the organisation or the program code? No difference, and this is why I asked CadSoft for a link to torrent in the original post.

 

[Kjelt]

Probably you can not update (with discount).
But you probably can still purchase the standalone package for full price.

[k4rlhp]

Probably you can not update (with discount).
But you probably can still purchase the standalone package for full price.

BTW, the cadsoft of site has upgrade functionality built in so one can (?) upgrade online.
When I entered my SN to the site, it told me to contact sales. I did. And got that answer I quoted above.

I'm sure they will happily sell you (me) the professional license, what do they care if you actually sell your board or not, they got the money.

The stupid thing is I'm willing to pay some because I appreciate updates, community and the work they have otherwise done.
But the jump they impose is beyond unreasonable, it's insane.

What we have is your classic management+marketing epic fail. The guys in production have done a nice job and the bozos upstairs blow it up because "thats the way we do it"

[k4rlhp]

Hehe, it just occurred to me...

While building my lab recently, I listened to the amphour podcasts from ep#1 up to 120 something.
I think it's already from some very early episodes that cadsoft has got their fair share due to the licensing model.

That's like 5 years ago... So these guys haven't really learned anything this whole time...

Now what does that tell you?

[Fred27]

I definitely saw a post (somewhere) about a current 30% discount on Eagle until the end of this month. Can't find it right now though. Perhaps that would help.

Found it:
http://forum.43oh.com/index.php?/topic/9560-30%-off-any-new-Eagle-license-(until-April-30th-2016)

[CatalinaWOW]

Hehe, it just occurred to me...

While building my lab recently, I listened to the amphour podcasts from ep#1 up to 120 something.
I think it's already from some very early episodes that cadsoft has got their fair share due to the licensing model.

That's like 5 years ago... So these guys haven't really learned anything this whole time...

Now what does that tell you?

It is interesting that anyone other than Cadsoft can define a fair share.  Taking your business elsewhere if you think they are too greedy is fine, convincing yourself that it is alright to take their product from a warez site is another thing altogether. 

The fact that I think the music industry is greedy doesn't make it OK for me to take and share .mp3s.

[k4rlhp]

It is interesting that anyone other than Cadsoft can define a fair share.  Taking your business elsewhere if you think they are too greedy is fine, convincing yourself that it is alright to take their product from a warez site is another thing altogether. 

I'm not for using warez, that's why I'm even bothering to write about it.
People using wares won't really care what they charge for Eagle.

This is the most idiotic part, Cadsoft keeps an artificial void in the licensing model where you basically have a 1000x jump in some metric.

But this does not hurt those who are okay with wares.
It ONLY bothers those who really are willing to pay for things they use.

True, 4x4m is not a real size anyone uses but it's undeniable that the jump form 160EUR to 1600EUR is missing a step or two.

[CatalinaWOW]

More steps would be nice, but you were the one that brought up BitTorrent sites.  I know that not all are illicit, but a great many are.

[Kjelt]

Ah well here is your solution you are an educational institution as soon as you put up one eagle lesson on youtube. You educate people through videos. Solved. 

I had similar experiences with other firms esp software houses that sell compilers.
Some  do totally nothing for non commercial users in price, just ask the full 100% each year which comes up to thousands of €'s which is ofcourse completely rediculous. Others think they are so great offering you a 20% discount not realizing that this is still pricewise in a different galaxy.

So in this regard eaglesoft is a really good pricemodel, they do offer hobbieists an affordable license.

[EEVblog]

People ask me why I don't support Eagle, the license model is the reason.
A single sided PCB (commercial) with 2 parts on it that is bigger than 160mm costs huge money.

[Kjelt]

What is a cheaper alternative then?

[wraper]

What is a cheaper alternative then?

For example Labcenter Proteus. For private users they give 20% discount.
http://www.labcenter.com/products/pcb/pcb_overview.cfm
http://www.labcenter.com/ordering/cprices.cfm
It's not necessarily cheaper for everyone because of the different needs, but it has much more reasonable licence model. Also it would be insane to buy $1600 eagle licence because you can get more capable tool cheaper.

[Kjelt]

For example Labcenter Proteus. For private users they give 20% discount.

No they don't! Same rules as Eagle, you need proof of scholarship or educational institution:

Single User Pricing
Single user educational prices are discounted at a flat 20% from the equivalent commercial price. You can obtain a license costing via our online wizard or by reference to the commercial price list.
Proof of academic status is required prior to purchase - please contact us for more information or to place an order

[EEVblog]

What is a cheaper alternative then?

KiCAD
Altium Circuit Maker
DesignSpark
are all free

DIPtrace if you want to get around the size limit thing, but they use pin count instead. About the same price for full version though.
http://diptrace.com/buy/online-store/
Personally I'd rather have a pin count restriction than a size restriction.

[hammy]

... please contact us for more information or to place an order

Asking is the key. 

[k4rlhp]

A single sided PCB (commercial) with 2 parts on it that is bigger than 160mm costs huge money.

Do you mean fully assembled PCB cost not just a PCB?

PCB house prices drop to minimum at much larger sizes, for example at eurocircuit the cheapest per area is 580x425mm, which is coincidentally about half the cost per area compared to the 100x160mm limitation.

K

[Kilrah]

No, he obviously meant about the price of the tool - he was pointing out that if you want to make a PCB bigger than 160mm with Eagle you have to buy the $1600 license regardless of how simple your PCB design is, which makes little sense.

[k4rlhp]

People ask me why I don't support Eagle, the license model is the reason.

Agreed, pin count or process resolution would likely be more indicative of the requirements.
Essentially, doing a BGA at home will take some effort and likely a cost to match in other equipment, pro or not.

If I were CadSoft, I would put an additional step in between pro and entry at lets say €650+VAT for Schematic+board+autorouter and with a 320*200 limitation. Easily produced at home and on par with some other equipment in the lab and in line with PCB house capabilities. At worst they can just drop the size limitation, put non-commercial use limitation and it's doable within a few days, minimum investment required.

So go figure, why CadSoft has such a hard time wrapping their heads around this licensing.
It's not like they aren't losing any customers over this.

I hope cadsoft is now happy and wildly rich  with the €160 I paid them!
 
Because I'm learning KiCad now.

K

[hendorog]

EagleCad are not worthy.

I made the mistake of purchasing in April without realising there was a discount on - doh..

Within a couple of minutes I discovered the discount and emailed them. They ignored what I wrote and responded with an invoice.
I emailed again a couple of days later, and they ignored that email as well.

My own stupid fault of course. However combined with the limitations mentioned in the thread, and other weirdness, I realise I made a mistake committing to them.
I'll be moving to KiCAD.

[EEVblog]

The stupid licensing is the reason why I have not even considered using Eagle.

[Kjelt]

The stupid licensing is the reason why I have not even considered using Eagle.

The reason they have a very affordable license for hobbieists is the main reason I did choose for Eagle and I wish more software companies, esp. the big brand Arm compiler companies would offer something similar for non profit users.

[mmagin]

The stupid licensing is the reason why I have not even considered using Eagle.

The reason they have a very affordable license for hobbieists is the main reason I did choose for Eagle and I wish more software companies, esp. the big brand Arm compiler companies would offer something similar for non profit users.

These kind of license models really kind of suck when you want to move from pure hobbyist use to small-scale commercial use.  You've learned a tool, it works for you, then you want to say, sell a little adapter board to a few dozen people and you're supposed to cough up a lot of money.  I'd much rather get nothing for free, but get to use my current licensed level of functionality for any purpose.