Author Topic: Imagine you have a deadline...  (Read 16980 times)

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Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #125 on: April 21, 2017, 07:49:43 AM »
Hi Karel,

Hi Jorge,

I understand that you are upset, you have made that very clear.

I understand that it's your job to promote Eagle & autodesk, you have made that very clear.

However, I disagree that Autodesk has mistreated you in anyway. Technically, you haven't lost anything. You still have the V7.7 license you originally paid for and no one will be taking that away from you. The subscription change only applies to Autodesk EAGLE, so you still have exactly what you paid for.

Autodesk does care about it's customers to do othewise just doesn't make business sense.

It was said by your colleague that Eagle should not go subscription.
There was no advance warning or grace period so that we could buy extra V7 licenses.
We got completely taken by surprise and now, if we want to hire another engineer, we don't have
enough licenses and we will be forced to switched to another package.
I call that a mistreatment.

The improvements in EAGLE are a testament to that, the fact that I'm here replying is also testament to that. EAGLE feature wise is far more powerful than it's ever been and all this has happened in less than a year. I know you've been copying issues from the Autodesk forum and posting them here, however you haven't been following up on the resolution of those issues. When Autodesk EAGLE first released it's stability wasn't what users were used to with V7 and prior. On the flip side, there wasn't as much change in EAGLE's codebase prior to Autodesk either so stability was easier to preserve. With that said many of the linux issues have or are being ironed out and every release is better than the last in terms of stability(I run a Linux Mint 18 box with MATE 1.14.2 desktop here). I think there is large Linux market that is a unique opportunity for us to capitalize on, since no other commercial tool natively supports linux(keyword: commercial, KiCAD and GEDA are not commercial entities).

The facts are that Eagle V6 & V7 were rock stable on all major Linux distro's.
V8 is a crash galore. And in addition, autodesk is going to limit the number of supported Linux distro's,
something that never was a problem in the past.

Never say from these waters I will not drink. I haven't heard anyone say they have actually tried the latest 8.1.1 here. You may discover that it's not what you thought it was. EAGLE's file format is XML so you are never truly locked in as can be seen by all of the converters available in other tools. You really have nothing to lose by trying it and then forming an informed opinion.

Just my 2 cents, if they are even worth that much. If you try it and run into any problems I'm here to help.

Subscription is not an option. It is not negotiable. For arguments read the 300+ posts.

Let me know if there's something else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Kind Regards,
Karel
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:06:03 AM by Karel »
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #126 on: April 21, 2017, 08:47:51 AM »
It is sad to see, how the relationship between a company und customers can suffer. But oviously there are still enough customers using the new subscription model.

Meeh! Whatever! It is always good to habe a plan B for the most critical tool. If your company relies on only one EDA software you are doomed. :-\
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:51:47 AM by hammy »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #127 on: April 21, 2017, 08:52:06 AM »
Is there? They must be out there, but I haven't see anyone saying they're using it yet.
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #128 on: April 21, 2017, 08:53:41 AM »
I remember some students in another forum saying ist is good to pay monthly. Much cheaper, you know ...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #129 on: April 21, 2017, 08:58:33 AM »
Rental model probably works well for students, may or may not end up using that particular product long term. It's out of the question for any sort of real use though.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #130 on: April 21, 2017, 07:44:50 PM »
Just a quick field report from a long time Eagle user, in case someone wants to switch. I created a breakout board in KiCad as a simple demo project and was learning the program while doing it (mostly by watching Youtube videos and googling for questions how things work in KiCad that I know from Eagle). Including some time playing with it previously, I needed about two days to do this. I think with the next board I won't be much slower than with Eagle.

BTW, has Eagle now an integrated 3D view which you can interactively rotate and zoom, as in KiCad? I really like the improved 3D view of the latest stable KiCad release 4.0.6, which I compiled from source. My board (I know, I should add 3D models for the components) :



But the best 3D view has Altium Designer, because you can even edit your board in the 3D view.
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Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #131 on: April 22, 2017, 01:37:15 AM »
The 3D view is cool, but in practice I find that it's way too much work to create 3D models for all the parts I make for the libraries and that part never gets done.
 

Offline ar__systems

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #132 on: April 22, 2017, 09:06:35 AM »
What do you use 3D view at all? Imho it is pretty useless, for the amount of work you need to do to create part models.
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #133 on: April 22, 2017, 11:46:17 AM »
I have used 3D PCB design (manually) a lot, but usually because the PCBs themselves are critical to the design. It's also handy when trying to make something fit an enclosure...you know, so that your project is finished. In an enclosure.

A non-enclosure example:
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #134 on: April 22, 2017, 11:57:21 AM »
What do you use 3D view at all? Imho it is pretty useless, for the amount of work you need to do to create part models.

It doesn't need to win an art price, just the right dimensions are good enough to see if it fits somewhere. I just tried it for my circuit and created 3D models for the crystal and the QFN IC:



Took me a minute for the IC and two minutes for the crystal with ViaCAD Pro and basic shapes and boolean operations. Then export to VRL (format version 2, because KiCad crashed with version 1) and add it to the footprints with a mouse click. Strangely the VRL-export was in cm, but KiCad assumed inch, but you can enter a scaling factor in KiCad. The pin headers and cap was already available in KiCad, I just didn't configure the right path, because I compiled it from source. The pads for the cap are bigger than usual, because I chose the hand-solderable footprint variant.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 01:07:52 PM by FrankBuss »
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Offline sleemanj

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #135 on: April 22, 2017, 03:23:41 PM »
What do you use 3D view at all? Imho it is pretty useless, for the amount of work you need to do to create part models.

Even without 3d models 3d view can be very useful, I often spot problems or areas I could improve in the 3d view which were not so obvious in the 2d layout view alone, I can't explain why satisfactorily, but that is the case.

Adding models, even rough ones, allows you to see even more problems, mostly to do with "yeah I'm never going to get an iron tip into there" for me.
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Offline Pack34

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #136 on: April 25, 2017, 11:40:01 PM »
The 3D models also serve as a good "double check" for the footprints. The components don't have to be super accurate to what they look like, just an extruded rectangle to show extents.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #137 on: April 29, 2017, 07:00:57 PM »
 :palm:

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2017, 02:09:40 AM »
Hi Karel,

As I responded to the customer who originally posted that image on the Autodesk forums, that is a bogus screen. Autodesk doesn't touch anything on your machine, we have already reported that issue to the appropriate team at Autodesk and they are working on correcting it.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2017, 05:04:13 AM »
Autodesk is the United Airlines of software companies, tone deaf, and won't wake up until they realize the cash invested into Eagle is going up in a bonfire.
 
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Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #140 on: May 02, 2017, 05:18:11 AM »
Autodesk is the United Airlines of software companies, tone deaf, and won't wake up until they realize the cash invested into Eagle is going up in a bonfire.
Are you not assuming that assuming there is someone at Autodesk who will actually eat responsibility for these decisions? Once a corp pushes out all of the talent which got it to where it is at its peak and replaces them with mediocre nobodies, every time something goes wrong, each and every person in the chain will throw their hands up into the air in a fit of despair and cry "I had nothing to do with this. It's not my fault (nothing is ever my fault)! This wasn't a part of my job!" The buck will continuously get passed and suddenly no one had anything to do with this being a cockup. When upper management needs someone to pin the blame on, the guys in the middle will find a sacrificial lamb below them. It'll probably be Jorge in this case, in spite of the fact he's the only one in the trenches who is actively trying to do right by everyone. Perhaps it isn't in spite, but because of.

When a company switches to 'acquire your way to success,' it has ceased to be an innovator as there is no one left inside the company to really innovate. Innovation requires someone to be responsible for the success or failure of an idea.
 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #141 on: May 02, 2017, 03:29:20 PM »

It was said by your colleague that Eagle should not go subscription.
There was no advance warning or grace period so that we could buy extra V7 licenses.
We got completely taken by surprise and now, if we want to hire another engineer, we don't have
enough licenses and we will be forced to switched to another package.

Subscription is not an option. It is not negotiable. For arguments read the 300+ posts.

In Today's news, I see Mentor have made a significant line in the sand around Subscription, and the 'market reaction' to this...

Seems they are keen to assist AutoDesk down the slippery slope, by choosing another path... and avoiding the Subscription tar-pit ...

https://www.digikey.com/en/product-highlight/m/mentor-graphics/pads-maker?WT.mc_id=PressRelease
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mentor-and-digi-key-announce-new-pads-maker-and-pads-makerpro-for-the-aspiring-innovator-300448264.html

Mentor eliminated the annual license subscription for the new PADS MakerPro edition in favor of a 'license once and use forever' license and made the new PADS Maker edition a totally free license.
Complete desktop environment with no requirement for cloud storage or community IP sharing



Limits are not easy to nail down, but I find
https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/Getting+Started+with+PADS+Maker+Layout
Says
6 layers as 4 Signal, 2 plane  25 square inches (161.29cm2) 
Maker Pro : Maker Pro version allows 8 layers of which 6 can be signal layers.  Board size is limited to 50 square inches.  (322.58cm2) US$499/A$661.62 once

and Eagle ?

free version of EAGLE  Includes 2 schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and 80 cm2 board area.
EAGLE Standard  Includes 99 schematic sheets, 4 signal layers, and 160 cm2 board area.  A$140/year, recurring
EAGLE Premium  Includes 999 schematic sheets, 16 signal layers, and unlimited board areas.   A$700/year, recurring

Unclear if that 4 signal layers of  EAGLE Standard  includes additional 2 planes, as PADS Maker does, but clearly the PADS free version chops the legs off Free Eagle, and undercuts EAGLE Standard.
Eagle premium is a little above PADS, in layers, but who in the maker area pushes over 8 layers ?

Conversely, 2 schematic sheets, 2 signal layers, and 80 cm2 board area. is quite seriously crippled, but just usable.

I also find this
You can import schematics and symbols from a third party tool. Files can be imported from the following software versions:
Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6
P-CAD 200x
CADStar V5–V9
OrCAD 7.2–16.6
Eagle 6.0 or greater
and
You can import PCB files from third party tools by using the Import Translator (File > Import, then select the relevant software) in PADS Maker Layout. Files can be imported from the following software versions:
Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6
P-CAD 200x
CADStar V5–V9
OrCAD Board Files 7.2–16.2
{ no mention of eagle PCB paths yet ?}

Of course, Mentor play the silly games of not supporting Import of PADS Layout designs to PADS Maker Layout, but these third party pathways give a clue of a dual hop path..

Update: Another page has this detail..

What happens when my license subscription runs out?
Student and Maker versions run out after 1 year. You may go back to Digi-Key to purchase the Maker Pro license (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=mentor%20graphics). Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available.


Ouch - so after 12 months, you drop dead, or pay $$$
I've no idea what "Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available" means, is that based on the market push-back, we may extend the free ??
WTF? That seems just as brain-dead as Autodesk - maybe worse, as even the free version expires ?!?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 07:27:25 PM by PCB.Wiz »
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #142 on: May 03, 2017, 12:11:15 AM »
They say the license expires - they do not say you can't renew it.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #143 on: May 03, 2017, 12:44:11 AM »
They say the license expires - they do not say you can't renew it.

In fact, their press release here says:
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mentor-and-digi-key-announce-new-pads-maker-and-pads-makerpro-for-the-aspiring-innovator-300448264.html

Quote
PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license.

But I'm sure they reserve the right to change license conditions in the future -- charge some money, tighten the limitations, or abandon the free license altogether.

 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #144 on: May 03, 2017, 06:01:53 AM »
They say the license expires - they do not say you can't renew it.
Depends where you read...
Someone in Mentor has messed up and their statements contradict, and cannot both be true.

Their wiki has the confused/mangled English quote I gave above
https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/PADS+Maker+FAQ#

"What happens when my license subscription runs out?
Student and Maker versions run out after 1 year. You may go back to Digi-Key to purchase the Maker Pro license (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=mentor%20graphics). Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available."


Their Press release however, claims this :
PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license.

Anyone know for sure which statement is true ?

Other issues : I know IC vendors who use PADS, who would be interested in publishing their Eval Boards in PADS Maker form.

Oops, Mentor explicitly block that pathway as PADS maker cannot read a Full PADS design, and no mention of PADS being able to export to PADS maker.

Such are the issues when Corporate's try to be too clever over turf protection, the end result is silliness like having to go via a competitors package, to move between two Mentor ones !!
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #145 on: May 03, 2017, 06:52:21 AM »
There are two versions:
  • PADS Maker
  • PADS Maker Pro
Last one with perpetual license. First one with a free, annual, renewable license.
It's all described in their press release.
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #146 on: May 03, 2017, 07:10:54 AM »
There are two versions:
  • PADS Maker
  • PADS Maker Pro
Last one with perpetual license. First one with a free, annual, renewable license.
It's all described in their press release.

No, that is not the cause of the confusion. I am pretty sure every poster above has understood that difference.

Please read the above posts again, especially the one from PCB.Wiz with the links it provides. All statements refer to the non-Pro version. (Except for the side note from Mentor that one can upgrade to Pro once the 1-year non-Pro license expires.)
 

Offline hammy

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #147 on: May 03, 2017, 08:35:36 AM »
No, that is not the cause of the confusion. I am pretty sure every poster above has understood that difference.
Please read the above posts again, especially the one from PCB.Wiz with the links it provides. All statements refer to the non-Pro version. (Except for the side note from Mentor that one can upgrade to Pro once the 1-year non-Pro license expires.)

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/mentor-and-digi-key-announce-new-pads-maker-and-pads-makerpro-for-the-aspiring-innovator-300448264.html
Quote
[...] PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license. PADS MakerPro adds one year of enhanced support and increased design capacity, including additional layers and design size, for a one-time charge of $499. [...] Mentor eliminated the annual license subscription for the new PADS MakerPro edition in favor of a 'license once and use forever' license and made the new PADS Maker edition a totally free license. [...]

https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/PADS+Maker+FAQ#
Quote
[...]
Licensing
What type of licensing does PADS Maker software use?
Student and Maker version licenses are good for one year while Maker Pro purchased licenses are perpetual. [...]

It's all pretty clear.  ;D

Cheers
hammy
 

Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #148 on: May 03, 2017, 09:24:36 AM »

https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/PADS+Maker+FAQ#
Quote
[...]
Licensing
What type of licensing does PADS Maker software use?
Student and Maker version licenses are good for one year while Maker Pro purchased licenses are perpetual. [...]

It's all pretty clear.  ;D
Sure, until you keep reading the same link and hit these comments (emphasis added)

These licenses are bound to specific personal computers or workstations, but you can rehost to different machines twice during a license period.
What happens when my license subscription runs out?
Student and Maker versions run out after 1 year. You may go back to Digi-Key to purchase the Maker Pro license (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=mentor%20graphics).
Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available.


leads to some obvious questions...
a) Why is there any limit on rehosting a free license ?
b) what exactly does "when my license subscription runs out? ... Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available." mean ?
 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #149 on: May 03, 2017, 09:35:51 AM »
I wish I could buy stock in KiCAD. 

Never used it in my life, but the rest of the industry seems to be falling over themselves trying to hand them as much market share as possible.
 


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