Author Topic: Imagine you have a deadline...  (Read 24091 times)

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Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2017, 04:33:28 AM »
Hi All,

Just to follow up, the outage that Karel is referring to was resolved within a few hours and today everything is working as expected.

As always let me know if there's anything I can do for you guys.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2017, 06:00:54 AM »
Hi All,

Just to follow up, the outage that Karel is referring to was resolved within a few hours and today everything is working as expected.

As always let me know if there's anything I can do for you guys.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Hi Jorge,

Why are you saying this? That it was solved "in a few hours" does it make less important?
What about the lost productivity? Doesn't it proof that Eagle v8 is unreliable? Not now and not in the future?
We never had those kind of problems with versions before v8.

What about all the other problems (blank screen, proxy/firewall).
What about the fact that v8 users are guinea pigs for autodesk?

Let me know if there's something else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Karel
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Online latigid on

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2017, 09:03:14 AM »
 :horse:

They get it. They know the change in licencing is near universally unpopular with established users. They know they've lost business and goodwill. They know that a big portion of users will head to other software. There's been no indication of a backtrack through Jorge or Matt B. This is their decision. I don't agree with it, and I'm a bit sad my investment into their software has hit a dead end. Like many others, I will continue to use my v7.7 and transition to something else when/if I need to. In the meantime I hope the old forums and archives of ULPs/scripts remain accessible.

I'd be happy to be surprised, but don't think its likely. How long did the about-face take when this happened the last time?
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2017, 09:17:19 AM »
It's so much uglier since they said just a few months earlier that subscription model was not even being considered. What a load of horseshit. They (as in upper management at least) knew damn well that was the plan, unless they are grossly incompetent and acquired Eagle without having a plan. They lied to placate the existing customer base.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #79 on: March 29, 2017, 05:35:11 PM »
Eagle 8.1 on Ubuntu:

nouveau: kernel rejected pushbuf: No such file or directory
nouveau: ch6: krec 0 pushes 0 bufs 2 relocs 0
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000000 00000002 00000004 00000004 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000001 00000006 00000004 00000000 00000004
nouveau: kernel rejected pushbuf: No such file or directory
nouveau: ch6: krec 0 pushes 0 bufs 2 relocs 0
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000000 00000002 00000004 00000004 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000001 00000006 00000004 00000000 00000004
nouveau: kernel rejected pushbuf: No such file or directory
nouveau: ch6: krec 0 pushes 0 bufs 2 relocs 0
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000000 00000004 00000004 00000004 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000001 00000006 00000004 00000000 00000004
nouveau: kernel rejected pushbuf: No such file or directory
nouveau: ch6: krec 0 pushes 0 bufs 10 relocs 0
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000000 00000002 00000004 00000004 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000001 00000006 00000004 00000000 00000004
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000002 0000003e 00000002 00000002 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000003 00000023 00000002 00000002 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000004 00000007 00000002 00000002 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000005 00000008 00000002 00000002 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000006 0000000b 00000002 00000002 00000000
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000007 0000000a 00000002 00000002 00000002
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000008 0000000f 00000002 00000000 00000002
nouveau: ch6: buf 00000009 00000010 00000002 00000000 00000002
Segmentation fault (core dumped)

We never had those kind of problems before autodesk came into play  :palm:
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #80 on: March 30, 2017, 02:58:18 AM »
Hi Karel,

I hope you're having a good day. This is an issue between the nouveau graphics driver and Qt. They are aware of this issue and are working on a fix, you can see the bug report here.
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-41242

There are a few workarounds on that bug report which may help getting EAGLE to work on your system. If you are open to the idea of using a different video driver then that may be the simplest solution although, I understand that is not an option for everyone.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #81 on: March 30, 2017, 03:17:23 AM »
I hope you're having a good day. This is an issue between the nouveau graphics driver and Qt. They are aware of this issue and are working on a fix, you can see the bug report here.
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-41242

The bug is marked as critical, but open since 2014. I guess this could take a while :=\

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #82 on: March 30, 2017, 04:13:03 AM »
Hi Karel,

I hope you're having a good day. This is an issue between the nouveau graphics driver and Qt. They are aware of this issue and are working on a fix, you can see the bug report here.
https://bugreports.qt.io/browse/QTBUG-41242

There are a few workarounds on that bug report which may help getting EAGLE to work on your system. If you are open to the idea of using a different video driver then that may be the simplest solution although, I understand that is not an option for everyone.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Hi Jorge,

I hope you are doing well.
All those problems started to arise when autodesk started to touch Eagle.
No problems so far with V6 & V7.

The idea to change graphics driver is ridiculous.
What's the next step, to change operating system?

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Kind Regards,
Karel


The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #83 on: March 30, 2017, 04:23:22 AM »
The bug report Jorge posted is from an alpha version of Qt. I hope Autodesk didn't use this for Eagle?

For my Qt projects I always use a stable version, and not the latest stable version. Better wait until a version is mature and all the known major bugs for it are fixed.

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #84 on: March 30, 2017, 07:49:43 AM »
Hi FrankBuss,

We don't use an alpha version of Qt for EAGLE. However, Qt like most projects shows when the bug was first discovered since the case is still open it means this is still an issue. If you read through the comments fixes for the issue exist they just haven't been pushed upstream, from the little I read of their discussion it seems to be a politics issue with the main dev of the Nouveau driver.

In any case, there are ways to deal with the issue in the meantime so it's possible to get EAGLE running in environments that use that driver.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

 
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #85 on: March 30, 2017, 05:32:13 PM »
The best way to deal with all the issues is to stay away from V8...
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #86 on: March 30, 2017, 05:37:27 PM »
As many issues as I have with what Autodesk is doing with Eagle, this is not an Eagle issue or even a Qt issue: This is Nouveau not being ready for use. It is not Autodesk's fault that the driver you choose to use is not ready for use in the real world.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #87 on: March 30, 2017, 07:39:18 PM »
As many issues as I have with what Autodesk is doing with Eagle, this is not an Eagle issue or even a Qt issue: This is Nouveau not being ready for use. It is not Autodesk's fault that the driver you choose to use is not ready for use in the real world.

Albeit I agree with you, at least partly, the fact remains that V6 & V7 works fine with the Nouveau driver.
In the past, Cadsoft did most (if not all) of the development on Linux and because of that, bugs were catched in an early stadium.

It is autodesk who decided to completely change their development and testing process.

It is autodesk who decided to rip apart Eagle and build it up again and use paying clients to be their guinea pigs.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline bitwelder

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #88 on: March 31, 2017, 03:40:21 AM »
Albeit I agree with you, at least partly, the fact remains that V6 & V7 works fine with the Nouveau driver.
In the past, Cadsoft did most (if not all) of the development on Linux and because of that, bugs were catched in an early stadium.
Does Eagle (both Cadsoft and Autodesk versions) documentation mention anything about the type of Linux machines they support i.e. do they explicitly mention that they are certified to work only with certain gfx cards or gfx drivers?
 

Offline macegr

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #89 on: March 31, 2017, 06:28:08 AM »
If they don't mention any specifics then that means they should support it all. Nouveau is an extremely commonly used driver.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #90 on: March 31, 2017, 06:50:55 AM »
If you can play games like Counterstrike, Dota 2, Team Fortress, etc. using the Nouveau driver without segfaults,
why should something simple like Eagle be a problem?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-410-blob
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #91 on: March 31, 2017, 07:43:07 AM »
If you can play games like Counterstrike, Dota 2, Team Fortress, etc. using the Nouveau driver without segfaults,
why should something simple like Eagle be a problem?

http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=nouveau-410-blob

3D games use vastly different parts of the graphics pipeline.  In fact, graphics driver developers often optimize their code specifically to run games well.  Nobody runs benchmarks for Qt performance.

If you want reliable performance, then you have to use an industry-standard OS, preferably the one that the devs use.

(No part of my post should be interpreted as a defense of EAGLE 8 in general, as I haven't used it.)
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #92 on: March 31, 2017, 08:09:19 AM »
In hindsight...

What Autodesk should have done is killed the Eagle product, and used the corpse to create a newly branded product.

Had they done this...
1. They wouldn't have lied about Eagle never becoming a ransomware kit.
2. All the new bugs they jammed into it would be justified as "new software." This way what used to work, and doesn't now, is swept up under 'new software, we're working on it.'
3. they wouldn't have the explicit backlash from the existing user base for breaking what worked. The rotten carrot they could offer as what Eagle 8 now is, would be offered for people who wanted to 'migrate' to something that is 'backwards compatible with eagle 7'.
 
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Online latigid on

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #93 on: March 31, 2017, 08:47:20 PM »
In essence, this is what's happened anyway. The old EAGLE is dead as we knew it, or not dead, but going nowhere fast.

I think the expectation was that everybody would blindly transition to the subscription model. The flawed analogy of a cup of coffee being cheaper was instantly dismissed. I also found the tone of Matt B's posts quite combative and overly defensive -- not a good look!

Only Autodesk/CADsoft/whoever has the real numbers on users and the categories they belong to. Maybe an "affordable" subscription model would be a nice enticement for all of those hobby users to finally upgrade to a paid version. But for anyone who had already paid into the perpetual licence, it's a big slap in the face both financially and from a trust perspective. They are the ones who supported development over many years (and not receiving much in return I might add), and they will be the first to leave for something else, as painful as learning a new CAD is.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #94 on: March 31, 2017, 08:54:51 PM »
If they don't mention any specifics then that means they should support it all. Nouveau is an extremely commonly used driver.

Which is a sad state of affairs because it is barely functional. It simply isn't ready.

I have tried it, on a regular basis, on a wide range of GPU models, for years. It still does not handle multiple displays correctly. It still doesn't do useful power management. It still falls back on CPU acceleration for many tasks.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #95 on: March 31, 2017, 11:39:35 PM »
If they don't mention any specifics then that means they should support it all. Nouveau is an extremely commonly used driver.

Which is a sad state of affairs because it is barely functional. It simply isn't ready.

I have tried it, on a regular basis, on a wide range of GPU models, for years. It still does not handle multiple displays correctly. It still doesn't do useful power management. It still falls back on CPU acceleration for many tasks.

What counts here is if Eagle V7 runs fine with Nouveau.

As far as I know, Eagle never used OpenGL. To make such a big change (to start to use OpenGL) requires a lot of carefull testing
and some clear system requirements, including a list of supported and tested platforms.
The fact that they didn't, says a lot of the capabilities and professionality of their development team (or management).

And it's not just this. Eagle never used SSL because there was no reason. Now they use openSSL in order to connect to their servers
and to check you. They failed miserably because lot's of users couldn't use Eagle anymore because it couldn't find or open the SSL libraries.
And there's more stuff going on. They are just a bunch of *** who don't know what they are doing.
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline MarkL

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #96 on: April 02, 2017, 01:12:34 AM »
This bug with Qt and Nouveau makes me wonder about Autodesk's long-term commitment to Linux.  I was only able to find one other Autodesk product that also runs natively on Linux, Autodesk Maya.  Maybe there are others, but my point is there aren't many when you consider their broad portfolio.

Relative to Mac and Windows, I think Linux users are more likely to reject the rent-ware licensing and this will cause Linux user numbers to further decline.

Clearly the bean counters are in charge of product direction at Autodesk.  How long will it take them to declare Linux a poor return on investment?

I think Linux support has an uncertain future.

And before Autodesk protests, I wouldn't trust any promises of continued Linux support as being credible.  The licensing issue was "promised" and then not fulfilled.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #97 on: April 10, 2017, 07:25:08 PM »
 :'(
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline beenosam

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #98 on: April 10, 2017, 09:23:03 PM »
When I first used EAGLE, I was surprised how cumbersome and awkward it was to use. It's nice to see Autodesk bought it so they can finally drive the last nail into its coffin.  :P
 
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Online KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #99 on: April 11, 2017, 07:09:17 AM »
When I first used EAGLE, I was surprised how cumbersome and awkward it was to use. It's nice to see Autodesk bought it so they can finally drive the last nail into its coffin.  :P

When you find a CAD program that's elegant and intuitive from the very first use, let me know. 

One thing you could say about EAGLE is that it was a rock-solid implementation that rarely crashed.  Looks like Autodesk has added enough artificial points of failure to remedy that particular condition.
 


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