Author Topic: Imagine you have a deadline...  (Read 3653 times)

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Offline Karel

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Imagine you have a deadline...
« on: February 14, 2017, 06:28:47 AM »
... and you are in a rush to modify your pcb.
So you start your EDA and then this happens...
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline Mr.B

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2017, 06:33:37 AM »
The unfortunate reality of being at the mercy of cloud service providers… >:(
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2017, 08:43:35 AM »
The unfortunate reality of being at the mercy of cloud service providers… >:(

In the 60s, 70s and early 80s, most computing was done "in the cloud"[1]. The principal reason people in companies jumped on PCs was because they allowed individuals to gain control over their own data; they were no longer held hostage by their data being in silos owned by other companies.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

[1] called "timesharing bureaux".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Gliding aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2017, 09:23:17 AM »
... and you are in a rush to modify your pcb.
So you start your EDA and then this happens...

Erf... This is exactly why I won't do cloud-based (aka "thin client", aka "dumb terminal accessing a mainframe") software, even if  the value proposition is otherwise compelling. Thanks for posting this.

 
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Offline metrologist

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2017, 09:34:50 AM »
You are on Cloud 9. Kick off your shoes, sit back, and relax...
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2017, 09:37:09 AM »
In the 60s, 70s and early 80s, most computing was done "in the cloud"[1].

Yes, I was there at the time.
Funny how things have gone full circle...
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2017, 10:34:37 AM »
Yeah I don't do cloud, other than as a backup solution for files I want to access elsewhere. I flat out refuse to rent software, I won't support that business model, not gonna happen.
 
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Offline metrologist

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2017, 10:37:05 AM »
Yeah I don't do cloud, other than as a backup solution for files I want to access elsewhere. I flat out refuse to rent software, I won't support that business model, not gonna happen.

Resistance is futal. Just wait till they patent your DNA string and start charging your royalties for using their design lolol0
 

Offline Mr.B

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2017, 10:42:12 AM »
Yeah I don't do cloud, other than as a backup solution for files I want to access elsewhere. I flat out refuse to rent software, I won't support that business model, not gonna happen.

Resistance is futile.
It is the business model that most companies will move to.
It provides clearer visibility of consistent revenue.

Not saying I like it any more than you… Just reality unfortunately.
Time is the overseer of all things.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2017, 10:46:07 AM »
Yeah I don't do cloud, other than as a backup solution for files I want to access elsewhere. I flat out refuse to rent software, I won't support that business model, not gonna happen.

Resistance is futile.
It is the business model that most companies will move to.
It provides clearer visibility of consistent revenue.

Not saying I like it any more than you… Just reality unfortunately.
And better security from hacking of their products.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist & NZ Siglent Distributor
 
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Offline Avacee

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2017, 10:51:41 AM »
The Cloud = Marketing BS for someone else computer that you have no control over.

Losing control the way the OP has is the wake-up call that control > cheaper.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2017, 11:29:30 AM »
Yeah I don't do cloud, other than as a backup solution for files I want to access elsewhere. I flat out refuse to rent software, I won't support that business model, not gonna happen.

Resistance is futile.
It is the business model that most companies will move to.
It provides clearer visibility of consistent revenue.

Not saying I like it any more than you… Just reality unfortunately.

I don't think resistance is futile. While companies focus less on innovation (which becomes less necessary as products mature) it gives the open source alternatives more time to catch up. Today I can do far more of my work using free/open source software than I could a decade ago and that is only going to continue. Why would I rent software when I can get something for free that does everything I need it to do?

Software rental is only viable if people bend over and take it.
 
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Offline Agent86

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2017, 12:25:01 PM »
In the 60s, 70s and early 80s, most computing was done "in the cloud"[1]. The principal reason people in companies jumped on PCs was because they allowed individuals to gain control over their own data; they were no longer held hostage by their data being in silos owned by other companies.

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it".

[1] called "timesharing bureaux".
Indeed.  I have been in the computer business more than 30 years now.  Like the pendulum in fashion where skirt hems rise and fall, so computing has the pendulum that swings back and forth between thin client and thick client.  The cloud is merely the most recent version of thin client.  When customers realize they want to control their own computers and data, the pendulum will swing back to thick client.

The most compelling reason I have heard for using the cloud boils down to the idea that you can cut down your capital budget and allocate more to your operations budget.  It's all accounting shenanigans.  Nothing will change the cloud faster than a change in tax law...

There is no cloud.  It's just someone else's computer.
 

Offline digsys

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2017, 12:44:32 PM »
+1 for   -Rot in hell before I go cloud AND rent software. It's bad enough that my CAD program MUST connect to their license server before use - there's been a couple incidents when
their server was down, and I was up shlt creek without a paddle. When I complained on the forums, I was removed from them :-) .. and now I get NO replies from support emails.
So, if one day they decide to close it down, my canoe is suddenly full of holes ! Dongles are even stoopider.
Hello <tap> <tap> .. is this thing on?
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2017, 12:50:42 PM »
Remember a few years ago when MS Money locked people out of their accounts?  Or way back when Hotmail tried to convert from Unix to Windows?
Several co-workers last year had Apple move their files to icloud.
If everyone donated even a 10th of what they would pay for software licensing to open source projects we'd all come out way ahead.
 

Online KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2017, 01:31:45 PM »
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2017, 01:49:50 PM »
Here's what's ultimately going to happen to EAGLE users...
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/5t3k8k/just_for_a_laugh_enjoy_this_78_page_document/

Doesn't look too complicated, many steps seems to be optional and for companies with employees, and an IT department which manages the $$$k AutoCAD etc. packages and users.

I'm still happy with my Eagle 6, but I won't upgrade to the subscription version. I used Eagle for 20 years now, starting with the DOS version, but in the last weeks I tried KiCad and it has some quirks, but looks usable. Will try it for new projects. And another good thing is that if I don't like a quirk, now I can fix it myself (being mostly a programmer).
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Online Elf

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2017, 02:27:58 PM »
I am just getting back into electronics after being out for almost a decade. I was going to buy Eagle (what would have been their $1100 layout and schematic license), but no longer. Autodesk and subscription based licensing; two major negatives for me, especially after previously having to deal with them for Maya and Combustion in the past (3d and video compositing).

It is looking like DipTrace or Circuitstudio are the way for me to go; leaning towards DipTrace.
 

Online KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2017, 02:28:14 PM »
Doesn't look too complicated, many steps seems to be optional and for companies with employees, and an IT department which manages the $$$k AutoCAD etc. packages and users.

Read the comments in the Reddit thread.  Those are professional sysadmins. 

"Doesn't look too complicated."  That's a good one.  :wtf:
« Last Edit: February 14, 2017, 02:30:26 PM by KE5FX »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2017, 03:55:47 PM »

I'm still happy with my Eagle 6, but I won't upgrade to the subscription version. I used Eagle for 20 years now, starting with the DOS version, but in the last weeks I tried KiCad and it has some quirks, but looks usable. Will try it for new projects. And another good thing is that if I don't like a quirk, now I can fix it myself (being mostly a programmer).


Eagle has quirks too, you just don't notice them anymore after using it for 20 years. You get the same way after using KiCad for a while.

I tried out every EDA I could get my hands on about 8-9 years ago and came to the conclusion that they all suck, but once you get past the very limited hobbyist oriented products they will pretty much all do the job when you figure out how to work with them.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2017, 09:31:09 AM »
Hello Karel,

The solution to that particular error is to log out of your version 8.0.0 and then start 8.0.1. That's what worked for another user and I think it will work for you.

Please let me know if it doesn't.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2017, 11:20:16 AM »
The solution to that particular error is to log out of your version 8.0.0 and then start 8.0.1. That's what worked for another user and I think it will work for you.

This sounds like you are forced to accept the update to a new version to continue working, something you said would not be required in that (overly long/overly bitter) thread on Autodesk taking over EAGLE.

So, please clarify what is going on here.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2017, 03:35:19 AM »
Reliability is ...
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online eugenenine

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2017, 03:44:19 AM »
Reliability is ...

But is the issue with eagle or windows :)
 

Offline Vtile

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2017, 03:49:49 AM »
Pick your point and call it as a ground.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2017, 03:52:36 AM »
Reliability is ...

But is the issue with eagle or windows :)

Try to run Eagle V8 on Fedora without an instant segfault...
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2017, 04:57:07 AM »
The solution to that particular error is to log out of your version 8.0.0 and then start 8.0.1. That's what worked for another user and I think it will work for you.

This sounds like you are forced to accept the update to a new version to continue working, something you said would not be required in that (overly long/overly bitter) thread on Autodesk taking over EAGLE.

So, please clarify what is going on here.

Hi MagicSmoker,

Basically, you can only be signed in to one version of  Autodesk EAGLE on the same computer. So if you are using 8.0.1 and want to use 8.0.0 sign out of 8.0.1 and then start 8.0.0. 8.0.0 will ask you to sign in again that's all.

You can continue to use both without issue, if you have both then you have to do a sign out operation in one in order to switch to the other.

Hope that clarifies things.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2017, 05:01:23 AM »
Reliability is ...

Hi Karel,

On the Autodesk forums, we posted a couple of possible solutions for this. Check the following:

1) See if you have Lavasoft Ad-aware installed (it comes pre-installed with some Lenovo laptops), the Web companion feature interferes with EAGLE. Disabling it, allows EAGLE to start. If you don't need it then just uninstall it.

2) What type of Video card do you have? Is it a Radeon series card? If it is you may have to update your drivers.

We can't do anything about #1, however we are working on something to address #2.

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2017, 05:07:29 AM »
Reliability is ...

But is the issue with eagle or windows :)

Try to run Eagle V8 on Fedora without an instant segfault...

Hi Karel,

We are working on improving Linux support by supporting a few mainstream distros. Fedora is being analyzed for inclusion at this point in time. It is possible to get EAGLE to run on Fedora by following the steps outlined in the README and symlinking a few libraries.

The Linux community is so fragmented that it's almost impossible to support all distributions. Users of Linux are used to getting their hands dirty so if a user is going to use something outside the list of distros(kernels, libc, etc.) that we support, than there is a possibility that they will have to do something special to get EAGLE to run.

Hope this helps,

Best Regards,
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2017, 05:48:46 AM »
The Linux community is so fragmented that it's almost impossible to support all distributions. Users of Linux are used to getting their hands dirty so if a user is going to use something outside the list of distros(kernels, libc, etc.) that we support, than there is a possibility that they will have to do something special to get EAGLE to run.

This was rarely a problem with version 7 & 6.

The problems started with V8 because Autodesk thought it was good idea not to link static anymore.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2017, 06:04:28 AM »
This was rarely a problem with version 7 & 6.

The problems started with V8 because Autodesk thought it was good idea not to link static anymore.

One reason I always liked Eagle was that it was rock solid. It never crashed or destroyed my design files, unlike what I've heard from e.g. Altium Designer. Another reason now to switch to something free like KiCad.
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Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2017, 06:31:54 AM »
1) See if you have Lavasoft Ad-aware installed (it comes pre-installed with some Lenovo laptops), the Web companion feature interferes with EAGLE. Disabling it, allows EAGLE to start. If you don't need it then just uninstall it.

We can't do anything about #1,

If that is true, how is it possible that V6 & 7 runs fine?


The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2017, 06:40:52 AM »
1) See if you have Lavasoft Ad-aware installed (it comes pre-installed with some Lenovo laptops), the Web companion feature interferes with EAGLE. Disabling it, allows EAGLE to start. If you don't need it then just uninstall it.

We can't do anything about #1,

If that is true, how is it possible that V6 & 7 runs fine?

Hello Karel,

I meant it in the sense that LavaSoft is a third party software and the fact that there code interferes with ours is something that we can't force them to fix. We can't mess with their code base.

Under the hood there have been many changes between EAGLE V7 and the new Autodesk EAGLE, those changes have introduced some growing pains that we have to sort out now in order to continue to develop EAGLE further.

I hope that helps clarify things.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2017, 06:47:45 AM »
My experience of software which went this way is they will keep on increasing the fee overtime to 'upgrade' to the latest version. So you end up spending just as much as having a subscription.  One product cost a few hundred originally now costs about 12k to buy/upgrade, about 10 years later.  They know they will not sell to new customers, who will just opt for a different cheaper product. But there is a large enough existing user base who have to factor in the time and cost of converting existing projects to a different product.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2017, 08:19:15 AM »
But if you have a perpetual license, it doesn't matter what it costs to upgrade unless you actually need some new feature and that's getting rarer all the time. That's the reason of course that the rental model is gaining popularity with software developers. It's the only way they can keep you paying.
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2017, 04:38:38 AM »
Reliability is ...

But is the issue with eagle or windows :)
Great,
One of the things i did like at eagle, was it's reliability. I haven't seen the old version crash a single time in years (exept a file-server-fault).
Now this ...
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #36 on: February 22, 2017, 02:20:42 AM »
So the above fix is stating that a component of AdAware, which monitors web traffic blocks the program (causing grief) because it appears to mimic a datamining piece of malware, needs to be disabled.

The first question to be asked, is what exactly is Eagle doing which needs to be calling home in this manner?

Suppose it's AdAware being hypersensitive. Am I going to have this problem when my IT guys have the firewall settings clamping down something brutal, and I'm powerless to change that?
Never been a problem with EagleV7 and earlier.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #37 on: February 22, 2017, 04:45:54 AM »
So the above fix is stating that a component of AdAware, which monitors web traffic blocks the program (causing grief) because it appears to mimic a datamining piece of malware, needs to be disabled.

The first question to be asked, is what exactly is Eagle doing which needs to be calling home in this manner?

Suppose it's AdAware being hypersensitive. Am I going to have this problem when my IT guys have the firewall settings clamping down something brutal, and I'm powerless to change that?
Never been a problem with EagleV7 and earlier.

Hi XFDDesign,

To be specific, the encounter with EAGLE causes Lavasoft to run into a divide by zero error :-//. If you look through the Lavasoft forums you'll find that users have experienced this issue with other software.

As has already been mentioned, EAGLE on startup checks for a valid license from the Autodesk servers so it is at that point that it calls home.

Now, for the most important question. If the IT guys go hardcore on the firewall settings, then it's likely that a proxy server is available to you(Considering Microsoft and Adobe have gone subscription as well it's likely that EAGLE isn't your IT team's first rodeo) EAGLE can use that validate your license. Additionally the ports used by EAGLE to check the license are standard HTTPS ports that most department have available.

If neither of those two options work than e-mail [email protected] and we could address it further.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #38 on: February 22, 2017, 05:01:38 AM »
As has already been mentioned, EAGLE on startup checks for a valid license from the Autodesk servers so it is at that point that it calls home.

Well, if it calls home only at startup, one solution to the problem would be to install it inside a VM, start it once, then never end it and freeze the VM when you need to shutdown your computer. No need for an internet connection anymore, and would save the annual fee as well :)
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Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #39 on: February 22, 2017, 06:32:39 AM »
Do I understand correct? Autodesk does not trust me but they want me to trust Autodesk? Really?
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #40 on: February 22, 2017, 07:01:30 AM »
Now, for the most important question. If the IT guys go hardcore on the firewall settings, then it's likely that a proxy server is available to you(Considering Microsoft and Adobe have gone subscription as well it's likely that EAGLE isn't your IT team's first rodeo) EAGLE can use that validate your license. Additionally the ports used by EAGLE to check the license are standard HTTPS ports that most department have available.

Clearly you guys have never dealt with national labs or defense contractor or other users with, shall we say, very severe security restrictions, if this is your response.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #41 on: February 22, 2017, 07:27:29 AM »
Now, for the most important question. If the IT guys go hardcore on the firewall settings, then it's likely that a proxy server is available to you(Considering Microsoft and Adobe have gone subscription as well it's likely that EAGLE isn't your IT team's first rodeo) EAGLE can use that validate your license. Additionally the ports used by EAGLE to check the license are standard HTTPS ports that most department have available.

Clearly you guys have never dealt with national labs or defense contractor or other users with, shall we say, very severe security restrictions, if this is your response.

Hi Bassman59,

I hope you're doing well. You forgot to quote the rest of the response where I said that if either of those two options were not viable to contact us for further support. Outside of those two circumstances we have to look deeper, I can't cover every scenario in a forum post so I went with the most common situations.

Hope this helps clarify things.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Deridex

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #42 on: February 23, 2017, 06:01:47 AM »
Do I understand correct? Autodesk does not trust me but they want me to trust Autodesk? Really?
In my sight it's even worse. Just read their license and service agreement.
 

Offline richardlawson1489

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #43 on: February 23, 2017, 06:40:56 PM »
Here's what's ultimately going to happen to EAGLE users...
https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/5t3k8k/just_for_a_laugh_enjoy_this_78_page_document/

Doesn't look too complicated, many steps seems to be optional and for companies with employees, and an IT department which manages the $$$k AutoCAD etc. packages and users.

I'm still happy with my Eagle 6, but I won't upgrade to the subscription version. I used Eagle for 20 years now, starting with the DOS version, but in the last weeks I tried KiCad and it has some quirks, but looks usable. Will try it for new projects. And another good thing is that if I don't like a quirk, now I can fix it myself (being mostly a programmer).


I agree. I am an Eagle user and really satisfied.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2017, 01:15:54 AM »
Hi XFDDesign,

To be specific, the encounter with EAGLE causes Lavasoft to run into a divide by zero error :-//. If you look through the Lavasoft forums you'll find that users have experienced this issue with other software.

As has already been mentioned, EAGLE on startup checks for a valid license from the Autodesk servers so it is at that point that it calls home.

But that's the wiggle isn't it? Plenty of other software 'calls home' and doesn't convince AdAware to divide by zero. What is going on under the hood that is unique to the degree it results in mutually assured death, and is common to these other packages of software you refer to? The Ford Pinto was not the only model car to be a firehazard, but pointing out that there are other cars which have similar fire-hazard susceptibility doesn't negate the fact that the root hazard is still there. With as little information AD provides to what goes on, and their own past history, there isn't any trust here to begin with. 

 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2017, 03:46:43 AM »
I guess AdAware monitors the internet traffic and then does some analysis on the data. There are many reasons for division by zero, like the programmer expected something from a regexp, then dividing something by this result to calculate some average. But analyzing the exact data and reverse-engineering the code could be a lot of work. Maybe Autodesk can send AdAware an Eagle license, so that their developers can see the bug inside an IDE, which then should be a matter of seconds to fix it and would benefit both companies, because the bug could happen with any software.
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Offline helius

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2017, 05:03:27 AM »
Uncaught division by zero is a programming error wherever it occurs, and usually points to an underlying design defect (incorrect assumptions about the environment or API behavior).
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #47 on: February 28, 2017, 05:40:14 AM »
 :--
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #48 on: February 28, 2017, 06:17:43 AM »
Hello Karel,

I hope you're doing well today. Could you provide some information about your setup? What operating system are you working with? What type of internet connection are you using wired or wireless?

Let's start there.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #49 on: February 28, 2017, 06:54:38 AM »
Hello Jorge,

I hope you're doing well today. Could you make Eagle revert to the old perpetual license system?

Let's start there.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Karel
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Online Monkeh

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #50 on: February 28, 2017, 07:13:11 AM »
What type of internet connection are you using wired or wireless?

If you're really down to asking such ridiculous first tier tech support questions, all hope is lost. Start by assuming the user is capable of connecting their computer to the internet, and forget the details, they are irrelevant to your application.
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2017, 07:16:01 AM »
Hi Karel,

I'm trying to help you get up and running, however that doesn't seem to be what you are interested in right now. EAGLE still works and there are many people still working with it. They way I look at it, you have a choice to make. If you decide to continue to work with EAGLE, then I can assure you that myself and the rest of the support staff will do everything we can to resolve any technical issues that may come up.

If you want help with getting EAGLE to work then I'm happy to help, otherwise there's not much I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2017, 07:23:07 AM »
What type of internet connection are you using wired or wireless?

If you're really down to asking such ridiculous first tier tech support questions, all hope is lost. Start by assuming the user is capable of connecting their computer to the internet, and forget the details, they are irrelevant to your application.

Hi Monkeh,

You can't assume anything, even in a technically savvy community like this one. Sometimes the smallest details are the ones that cause the biggest issues, in his post Karel provided nothing other than a picture. With no other information I chose to start with the simplest points. EAGLE runs on three different operating system families and each one is a minefield in it's own delightful way

Hope that clarifies things.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 
 

Offline ebastler

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2017, 07:36:53 AM »
Hey all, may I suggest that we don't take it out on Jorge?

I dislike Autodesk's transition to the subscription model as much as anyone here (and don't plan to switch to it at all). But Jorge is not to blame for this. He continues to offer honest technical support, in a situation where his job satisfaction must be way down. Let's be civilized here, can't we? If you have to let off steam, there's always Matt to complain to, who is actually in charge of the business side...  ;)
 
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Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2017, 07:39:12 AM »
EAGLE runs on three different operating system families and each one is a minefield in it's own delightful way

Hi Jorge,

This was never a problem with V7 & V6.
The problems started to arise with V8. So far, most of the programming work done since autodesk aquired Cadsoft Eagle
has been to make the subscription and internet license check work. And the result is a big mess.

Hope that clarifies things.

Let me know if there's anything I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Karel
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 

Offline rachaelp

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2017, 07:42:35 AM »
Hey all, may I suggest that we don't take it out on Jorge?

I completely agree. I've known Jorge on other EAGLE forums for a couple of years and he's always really helpful and exceedingly patient when dealing with a wide range of EAGLE users and skill levels. He doesn't deserve to take flack when he's just trying to help.

Best Regards,

Rachael
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Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2017, 10:24:25 AM »
I don't envy his position. When I was a teenager I worked for a stint at a local fast food joint. When I worked counter or window and there was a mistake on an order, I was the one who got yelled at by the customer. It wasn't my fault, I didn't make his burger, but I was the one facing the customers so I had to deal with it.
 

Online KE5FX

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2017, 11:15:15 AM »
I don't envy his position. When I was a teenager I worked for a stint at a local fast food joint. When I worked counter or window and there was a mistake on an order, I was the one who got yelled at by the customer. It wasn't my fault, I didn't make his burger, but I was the one facing the customers so I had to deal with it.

At some point, though, you have to wonder if your employer has your back.  If the burgers are coming out tasting like dish soap...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2017, 11:49:19 AM »

At some point, though, you have to wonder if your employer has your back.  If the burgers are coming out tasting like dish soap...

Well, yeah, and I could complain about it and upper management would defend their decision and if I kept complaining about it I'd be out of a job. Not a big deal for a kid making just over minimum wage but at some point in life it starts to matter more. Every job I've ever worked had some degree of corporate BS, even switching jobs is likely to replace one variety of BS with another.
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #59 on: March 01, 2017, 11:20:20 PM »
Ofcourse, this will never happen with Eagle...

https://forums.autodesk.com/t5/bim-360-glue-forum/bim-360-is-currently-unavailable-please-try-again-later/td-p/6909972

... because autodesk is a big company with reliable servers which are always available.

Amazon cloud anybody? Know what happened yesterday?
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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #60 on: March 01, 2017, 11:42:59 PM »
Amazon cloud anybody? Know what happened yesterday?

Yes, I noticed this with github, too, apparently they use Amazon cloud services for their release download servers, so I couldn't download a release for a software (not related to Eagle). Was offline yesterday for 4 hours:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/02/28/amazons-cloud-service-goes-down-sites-scramble/98530914/

This is not the first time that Amazon Cloud had this problem. There is even a website which monitors and counts the problems:

http://aussieoutages.com/status/aws-amazon-web-services/archive

quote: "Amazon wasn't able to update its own service health dashboard for the first two hours of the outage because the dashboard itself was hosted on AWS."  Brilliant idea to host the AWS outage dashboard on AWS :-DD

So there were problems on 5 days last year. Maybe better use Google cloud?

https://cloud.google.com
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Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #61 on: March 02, 2017, 12:43:37 AM »
So there were problems on 5 days last year. Maybe better use Google cloud?

The only reliable solution is to revert to the old license system.

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline GlowingGhoul

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #62 on: March 02, 2017, 03:14:10 AM »
So there were problems on 5 days last year. Maybe better use Google cloud?

The only reliable solution is to revert to the old license system.

Even if that were to happen (which Autodesk has said is "non-negotiable") it would be too late of solution for me or the others who've jumped on the Altium Circuit Studio $495 deal or the Designer 40% offer. Learning curve is not too bad, and well, Eagle doesn't have enough going for it to lure people back once they've switched away, IMHO.
 

Online Elf

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #63 on: March 02, 2017, 05:17:30 AM »
This is not the first time that Amazon Cloud had this problem. There is even a website which monitors and counts the problems: [...]
So there were problems on 5 days last year. Maybe better use Google cloud?
Amazon really does give you all the tools to have a resilient, distributed infrastructure with no shared failure domains. They offer something like 15 isolated geographic regions, many with multiple individual datacenters within the region. If you do things properly, creating infrastructure is programmatic, so it becomes more a question of design and automation rather than manual effort to establish services in another region.

Unfortunately most people don't take advantage of the platform and just stick all their infrastructure in one region. Usually the oldest and least reliable one, us-east-1 (N. Virginia), which is where almost all of the outages occur. When people suffer outages on AWS it is almost always because of bad design, rather than a lack of tools to stay operating and available. Individual "cloud" resources are supposed to be unreliable and disposable, by design, but not a lot of people really get that. It is conceptually easier for people to design things where they don't have to deal with the concept of dynamic resources, networking between regions, replication strategies, redundant DNS providers, etc.

This will be the same whether you are on AWS, Azure, or Google Cloud. AWS just has the largest customer base, and thus the most people yelling when they shoot themselves in the foot by not having a proper architecture or DR strategy.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #64 on: March 02, 2017, 11:47:02 AM »
Even if that were to happen (which Autodesk has said is "non-negotiable") it would be too late of solution for me or the others who've jumped on the Altium Circuit Studio $495 deal or the Designer 40% offer. Learning curve is not too bad, and well, Eagle doesn't have enough going for it to lure people back once they've switched away, IMHO.

Definitely.
Once Eagle lose customers, that's it, they won't be back. They will have rely on new subs.
The current Circuit Studio license + maintenance is cheaper than a year or so of Eagle subscription, so I can't see how Eagle can compete with that?
 

Online wilfred

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #65 on: March 02, 2017, 01:53:27 PM »

 It is conceptually easier for people to design things where they don't have to deal with the concept of dynamic resources, networking between regions, replication strategies, redundant DNS providers, etc.

This will be the same whether you are on AWS, Azure, or Google Cloud. AWS just has the largest customer base, and thus the most people yelling when they shoot themselves in the foot by not having a proper architecture or DR strategy.

Isn't the management of dynamic resources and all the other things essentially what makes the cloud, a cloud? Where all the detail is hidden away so as to make detailed attention from the customer unnecessary.

It isn't perfectly clear that you are not placing the responsibility for managing reliability onto the customers shoulders. Something which customers are seeking to avoid by buying cloud services.
 

Offline Agent86

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2017, 01:59:54 PM »
The current Circuit Studio license + maintenance is cheaper than a year or so of Eagle subscription, so I can't see how Eagle can compete with that?
DurationEAGLECircuit Studio
First year:$500$495
2 years:$1000$645
5 years:$2500$1095
10 years:$5000$1845
 

Online FrankBuss

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #67 on: March 02, 2017, 06:29:22 PM »
Isn't the management of dynamic resources and all the other things essentially what makes the cloud, a cloud? Where all the detail is hidden away so as to make detailed attention from the customer unnecessary.

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Online Elf

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #68 on: March 02, 2017, 06:32:21 PM »
Isn't the management of dynamic resources and all the other things essentially what makes the cloud, a cloud? Where all the detail is hidden away so as to make detailed attention from the customer unnecessary.

It isn't perfectly clear that you are not placing the responsibility for managing reliability onto the customers shoulders. Something which customers are seeking to avoid by buying cloud services.
Well, it would be nice, but as far as the cloud platform (infrastructure) is concerned, that is observably untrue. Not having to care about the reliability of the underlying resources is a good end-user experience for someone consuming an application run on cloud services, but the people doing the running absolutely have to account for failure, which coincidentally is largely the same problem as providing horizontal scalability for serving increasing (or globally distributed) load.

For example, look at the NIST definition of cloud computing. Cloud computing is defined by its on-demand, utility model for provisioning computing resources. Reliability is not even mentioned.

Since cloud computing centers around on-demand, scalable resources, these resources are generally less reliable than a traditional enterprise datacenter model. In the traditional enterprise model, great care and expense is taken to try and make individual servers (or VMs) as reliable as possible. You have highly overbuilt, fault tolerant hardware, and hypervisors like VMware that take care of making individual virtual machines fault tolerant at a software level. But this involves high dollar amounts, isn't generally scalable on demand (to meet varying or unexpected load), and still has ultimate limits to its reliability. For example, you can spend tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on enterprise grade hardware, but it doesn't stop an earthquake (or someone tripping and hitting the emergency power-off) from taking down the physical datacenter. It's also not as practical to just build in another floor to your datacenter and fork lift in a bunch of servers if you're expecting more traffic next week.

In the cloud model, the resources are designed to be disposable: if a VM fails, you simply replace it with another one. Relying on the functioning or state of an individual VM (or data center, or regional service) is not in keeping with the model of how those resources were designed to be consumed. Services like AWS provide building blocks that people can use to construct reliable services, but they don't provide anything like the concept of individual services with 100% reliability. For a variety of reasons, that just isn't a practical model. The VMs are run on cheap, plentiful, bottom dollar hardware, and reliability becomes the responsibility of the application rather than the infrastructure.

This is something that Amazon is pretty up front about (e.g. Building Fault-Tolerant Applications on AWS, Architecting for the Cloud), but again, there are a lot of misconceptions about what it means to move to a cloud model. People who aren't ready to architect around failure in their application would be better suited with a traditional managed service provider that caters to older enterprise-type applications, and will work with them to manage DR. They move to a cloud provider without being able to handle it, because it looks cheap, and then they complain when their application becomes unreliable.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 06:34:34 PM by Elf »
 
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Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #69 on: March 03, 2017, 12:34:18 AM »
The current Circuit Studio license + maintenance is cheaper than a year or so of Eagle subscription, so I can't see how Eagle can compete with that?
DurationEAGLECircuit Studio
First year:$500$495
2 years:$1000$645
5 years:$2500$1095
10 years:$5000$1845

Which also assumes that they keep the subscription price fixed, something I'm highly skeptical of. "We keep adding features! Therefore pay us more!"
So instead...
DurationEAGLECircuit Studio
First year:$500$495
2 years:$1250$645
5 years:$4500$1095
10 years:$15000$1845

If the same happens with the 'upgrade' folks of CS, you can stop paying and still get to keep using your tool.
 

Offline technotronix

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #70 on: March 08, 2017, 01:46:41 AM »
I don't think you need to go with Eagle 8.0.1.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #71 on: March 08, 2017, 08:07:56 PM »
Amazon really does give you all the tools to have a resilient, distributed infrastructure with no shared failure domains.

Maybe, but that won't necessarily protect you from a fat fingered typo. https://aws.amazon.com/message/41926/

Quote
This will be the same whether you are on AWS, Azure, or Google Cloud.

Not sure about Google, but Azure have had far more than their fair share of outages, ISTR DNS config changes being the route cause of one or two of them. DNS is itself is a nightmarish risk when combined with fat fingers. Edit: since I started writing this post yesterday, looks like Office 365 has been out again although it's not clear if this is just retail or enterprise too.

Quote
the most people yelling when they shoot themselves in the foot by not having a proper architecture or DR strategy.

I agree, but using the same provider for your production and DR does not remove common mode failure when they are using distributed configs, and as a punter you won't have any visibility of those changes in the cloud anyway until it breaks. To do DR "properly" in the cloud necessarily makes it expensive if you're to avoid such failures, and in many cases it won't save you a dime, and can be more expensive if you end up using multiple cloud vendors to spread and reduce risk.

With cloud, the devil is in the detail. Regrettably many IT managers and management consultants who don't do detail have difficulty understanding and analysing the technical risks, but it's OK, typically they'll have floated off to their next engagement once it's too late and they've left there slug trail of destruction behind them.

On the other side of the coin, there are definitely certain situations putting non-critical and non-core services in the cloud can make a lot of sense financially. If your business can take a half day or day's hit every now and then, then that's fine. But it's very brave to risk your core business offerings there without a full understanding of the risks involved, including service level RTO & RPO, offshoring of data, and even placing data locally in the hands of an entity with foreign interests allowing foreign jurisdictions to exercise access to that data without you being aware.

Never forget that the internet does not have an SLA.
 

Online Elf

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2017, 01:47:49 PM »
Maybe, but that won't necessarily protect you from a fat fingered typo. https://aws.amazon.com/message/41926/
Ah, yes, that outage was quite notorious, but it was contained to S3 in us-east-1 (N. Virginia). I've never seen a systemic failure in AWS that crossed a region boundary. Having discussed it with their engineers previously, the "control plane" (software, configuration, management) is segmented by region (a region being a geographical center with a set of one or more "availability zone" datacenters), with few if any dependencies between regions, for exactly that purpose -- to avoid systemic failures across the whole platform. So anyone who had a proper DR strategy in place with replication of S3 objects between regions and a solid (DNS, CDN, etc.) failover method in place was not affected.

This includes the rather large set of AWS infrastructure I am responsible for, so the "AWS outage" was a complete non-event for me. That was also good because I was on vacation!

Not sure about Google, but Azure have had far more than their fair share of outages, ISTR DNS config changes being the route cause of one or two of them. DNS is itself is a nightmarish risk when combined with fat fingers. Edit: since I started writing this post yesterday, looks like Office 365 has been out again although it's not clear if this is just retail or enterprise too.
I agree, Azure is not quite as mature as AWS from an availability or a services standpoint. There has been a lot of churn in their platform implementation in the last few years. Of course trying to make the traditional Microsoft services (AD, SQL server, etc.) both elastically scalable and highly available is also very challenging in ways that AWS doesn't have to deal with. Microsoft has a lot of baggage there.

O365 especially is notoriously unreliable, and unless you are lucky enough to have a direct line into Microsoft, support is horrible.

I agree, but using the same provider for your production and DR does not remove common mode failure when they are using distributed configs, and as a punter you won't have any visibility of those changes in the cloud anyway until it breaks. To do DR "properly" in the cloud necessarily makes it expensive if you're to avoid such failures, and in many cases it won't save you a dime, and can be more expensive if you end up using multiple cloud vendors to spread and reduce risk.
Right, I mean, if you want to be ideally protected you have vendor diversity, control plane diversity, geographical diversity of your administrative team, etc. It can get impractical. But even solely within AWS, taking advantage of the region partitioning (above) and carefully considering your other points of failure (like DNS) gets you most of the way there in terms of practical uptime; meaning five-nines (99.999%) availability of the infrastructure in aggregate is quite achievable. Availability at that point ceases to become an infrastructure issue and tends to become more of an application reliability issue.

But you're still worlds apart from a traditional enterprise datacenter solution. As expensive as DR is in AWS, traditional DR is even moreso, since you're on the hook for the costs of the datacenter facilities and hardware up front, whether you are using it or not.

Never forget that the internet does not have an SLA.
Some workloads are definitely better left local. But I'd still say that the expertise necessary to competently run a physical datacenter, with all the facilities maintenance, networking, and systems design concerns still presents a large and tangible risk as well. Entire datacenters become disabled all the time due to generator failures, bad UPS maintenance, cooling issues, cheap and poor networking design, limited upstream capacity and DDoSes, etc. So many people and so much expertise is required just to keep the lights on, and most companies aren't willing to do it properly.

Five nines type availability is a difficult engineering exercise no matter which way you do it, but for the competent and informed I still think services like AWS make it more accessible.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 01:50:45 PM by Elf »
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #73 on: March 10, 2017, 06:58:33 AM »
Quote
We apologize for interrupting your workflow, as you have noted the issue has been solved.
I am trying to find out what caused it, the developers did their best to get it up and running
as fast as possible blah blah blah...

The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline MagicSmoker

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2017, 07:04:39 AM »
Quote
We apologize for interrupting your workflow, as you have noted the issue has been solved.
I am trying to find out what caused it, the developers did their best to get it up and running
as fast as possible blah blah blah...

Wow... this is incredible. Even if you are just an isolated case it still gives me the chills to see these kinds of issues. When I am working on a board I *really* don't want to be interrupted, whether or not there is an external deadline bearing down on me.

 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #75 on: March 11, 2017, 04:33:28 AM »
Hi All,

Just to follow up, the outage that Karel is referring to was resolved within a few hours and today everything is working as expected.

As always let me know if there's anything I can do for you guys.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Karel

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #76 on: March 11, 2017, 06:00:54 AM »
Hi All,

Just to follow up, the outage that Karel is referring to was resolved within a few hours and today everything is working as expected.

As always let me know if there's anything I can do for you guys.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia

Hi Jorge,

Why are you saying this? That it was solved "in a few hours" does it make less important?
What about the lost productivity? Doesn't it proof that Eagle v8 is unreliable? Not now and not in the future?
We never had those kind of problems with versions before v8.

What about all the other problems (blank screen, proxy/firewall).
What about the fact that v8 users are guinea pigs for autodesk?

Let me know if there's something else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Karel
The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #77 on: March 11, 2017, 09:03:14 AM »
 :horse:

They get it. They know the change in licencing is near universally unpopular with established users. They know they've lost business and goodwill. They know that a big portion of users will head to other software. There's been no indication of a backtrack through Jorge or Matt B. This is their decision. I don't agree with it, and I'm a bit sad my investment into their software has hit a dead end. Like many others, I will continue to use my v7.7 and transition to something else when/if I need to. In the meantime I hope the old forums and archives of ULPs/scripts remain accessible.

I'd be happy to be surprised, but don't think its likely. How long did the about-face take when this happened the last time?
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Imagine you have a deadline...
« Reply #78 on: March 11, 2017, 09:17:19 AM »
It's so much uglier since they said just a few months earlier that subscription model was not even being considered. What a load of horseshit. They (as in upper management at least) knew damn well that was the plan, unless they are grossly incompetent and acquired Eagle without having a plan. They lied to placate the existing customer base.
 


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