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Offline 2N3055

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2017, 07:16:08 AM »
Excerpt from license:

""..  (c) Autodesk may make cross-border transfers of such information and data, including to jurisdictions with privacy or data protection laws that are less protective of Licensee than the jurisdiction in which Licensee is domiciled. Licensee acknowledges and agrees that such policies may be changed from time to time by Autodesk and that, effective upon posting on Autodesk’s website or other written notice from Autodesk, Licensee will be subject to such changes...."

This part here is outright illegal in EU.......

 

Offline calmtron

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2017, 08:04:11 AM »
Thank you Autodesk, that was the motivation needed to finally start porting my parts library to KiCad and make the switch!  :popcorn:
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2017, 08:40:55 AM »
Dear Autodesk,

THANK YOU for switching to a subscription model. This will ensure continuous development and support for Eagle. My license will be affected by this change, but I think it's a great move overall for all the obvious reasons.

 :-+

As for everyone vilifying Autodesk for paying its developers and actually expecting to make <gasp!> profits, shut yer pie holes, go run KiCad and hope that the EU keeps on subsidizing its development costs.

Sheesh...

This is an extremely counter productive post to your argument and is also quite rude. The problem is not with Autodesk making money on Eagle as a product or fairly paying their developers for their time and effort to make improvements. It's about the change to the licensing model and how it affects longtime Eagle users. I truly support paying a fair price for Eagle but I want a perpetual license that doesn't phone-home.  I'm more then willing to pay a fair yearly fee for a maintenance upgrade so long as the license is perpetual. I don't support subscription based licensing because it makes me dependent on the software provider. I want to own the things I purchase. This may be a foreign concept to you, or maybe you just don't care, but I assure you many of us do value ownership and the lack of reliance on a third-party to use the products we purchase. Please think next time before you post.

Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice. For the few times that most non-professional users will need full-blown Eagle, $65 per month for however long you need it (and $0/mo when you don't) beats the shit out of the previous $1700 perpetual license.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money. $65/mo for what will surely become a class-leading tool, is a bargain. $15/mo or $100/yr is a great price point at the bottom end.

I've used Autodesk's 360 licensing scheme for years now. I can tell you flat out that the fears and concerns are wildly overblown. Yes, there will be problems. Just as there are problems with any licensing model.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2017, 08:49:32 AM »
If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective.

Cadsoft not really responding to market needs for improvement is why they got sold twice. This is independent of their licensing model. If Autocad released a product on the license model you enjoy, but never changed the product in ways that mattered for years on end, they would suffer the exact same fate. You have not made a compelling argument of how this is an improvement. You've simply restated a preference. Having a preference is fine. Using that as a basis of argument to dismiss actual, legitimate, complaints, is laughable.

 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2017, 09:03:00 AM »

Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice. For the few times that most non-professional users will need full-blown Eagle, $65 per month for however long you need it (and $0/mo when you don't) beats the shit out of the previous $1700 perpetual license.

Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money. $65/mo for what will surely become a class-leading tool, is a bargain. $15/mo or $100/yr is a great price point at the bottom end.

I've used Autodesk's 360 licensing scheme for years now. I can tell you flat out that the fears and concerns are wildly overblown. Yes, there will be problems. Just as there are problems with any licensing model.

The flaw with this reasoning is that Eagle is not currently a class-leading tool. Its niche has been the maker/small business space, and its customers have neither the need nor the financial means to afford a best-in-class tool.

Maybe the market isn't strong enough to support such a product. Fine, we'll stick to KiCad. That doesn't mean they aren't trying to turn Eagle's popularity into a cash cow (which by the way is what they promised the world they wouldn't do).

As for Autodesk's ambitions on taking over this market, time will tell... as it stands, I think big business is going to stick with the current leader.
 

Online KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2017, 09:20:13 AM »
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.

Enjoy life as a sharecropper, then, as long as it lasts.  Autodesk has already lied to you once, but I'm sure it was only a one-time mistake on their part.

Quote
If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.

No, what doesn't work is trying to sell the same software for years at a time with minuscule incremental changes from one version to the next.  On the rare occasions when CadSoft introduced new features, they tended to deliver half-assed hacks, such as "modules" that could be reused only at the schematic level. 

Quote
Eagle's perpetual licensing model is THE reason it was stuck in the late 90's from a development perspective. There was no value for money.

The problem wasn't so much, "There was no money," but "There was no value."  CadSoft tried to capture more value than they contributed, and the market rebuffed them, as markets tend to do.  Now Autodesk gets to learn the same lesson.
 

Offline stuartk

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2017, 09:45:54 AM »
The problem for me is loosing the 6 layer functionality in the hobbyist version. I purchased the hobby version 6.50 for $169 which gave me the ability to make 4 layer boards. Now I would have to upgrade to the premium subscription at $500 per year to make 4 layer boards which is just not worth it for me. I could see my self shelling out another $169 for version 8, but I refused to be locked into endless subscription pricing for something that I can get with 5 other programs.

What if I were leave Eagle for another program and I would want to reference one of my own designs 10 years from now? I would have to re-subscribe to access my own intellectual property!

There are certain types of software where a subscription might make more sense, especially in compilers where companies might add certain functionality to a toolchain upon request. If you are locked into a certain software environment then subscriptions are a good thing as they help the company that you depend upon, survive. None of us actually depend upon Eagle, which is why this is a bone headed move.

Sorry Eagle. version 6.50 works fine and I'm going to hold onto my money.

Good luck,

Stuart
 

Online MarkL

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2017, 09:54:23 AM »
...
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.  If perpetual licensing worked, CadSoft would have never been sold twice.
...
Well, clearly Microsoft, Adobe, Intuit, etc., etc. have historically been complete and utter failures selling software with perpetual licensing.

Cadsoft's problem was that they didn't continue to enhance the product to remain competitive with other packages.  Their claim is that they can do this now that they have access to hoards of cash from subscribers.

If that is indeed the case, then they weren't charging enough for their perpetual licenses to plow enough back into development to keep pace with customer needs.  And giving away untold numbers of free versions didn't help that business model.  It increased popularity, no question, but also put additional burden on their technical support.

I, for one, would have no problem paying more for a perpetual license if the features I wanted were there (and to be clear: does not *ever* phone home).

I don't see any reason why both licensing models couldn't co-exist.  If I were them I would be enabling both licensing models to gain as much acceptance in the community as possible, for both occasional subscriber users and long-term users who need to minimize outside dependencies.  And even if it was for a transition period of a couple of years, they would at least have real data on how Eagle users prefer their licensing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 09:57:31 AM by MarkL »
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #108 on: January 21, 2017, 10:54:11 AM »
Thank Cadsoft for perpetual licensing, allowing existing license holders to keep hold of their version!

Their pricing model might be fine for the occasional user, and cheaper, but if you are using the pro version full time, eventually, it will cost you more.

Meh, we'll see what happens.
 

Offline nazcalines

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #109 on: January 21, 2017, 11:23:35 AM »
I upgraded to version 7 Eagle Pro last year. If I knew they were going to a subscription model, I would've migrated to KiCAD instead and saved $$$. Right now my copy of Eagle has everything I need, so it looks like I'll be seeing just how long it lasts. With a little luck I'm guessing I can get 10+ years out of the current version 7. By then maybe KiCAD will be nicely polished.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #110 on: January 21, 2017, 11:25:25 AM »
SOmeone said on Yotuube:
Quote
You can't go back to your original license... the fine print says the old license, regardless of the remainder of the term, will become invalid 120 days after initiation of a subscription.?

Haven't verified it...
 

Offline sd

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #111 on: January 21, 2017, 11:29:04 AM »
Altium Designer Standalone license sound pretty good. Thanks Autodesk!
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #112 on: January 21, 2017, 12:22:08 PM »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #113 on: January 21, 2017, 12:28:23 PM »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #114 on: January 21, 2017, 12:30:42 PM »
Oh, I put plenty of thought into it. Don't you worry. I'm perfectly happy to be one of the few voices of reason against the financial disembowelment of software development.

Enjoy life as a sharecropper, then, as long as it lasts.  Autodesk has already lied to you once, but I'm sure it was only a one-time mistake on their part.

Sharecropper?  Lied?!

Management changed their mind. Autodesk not releasing Eagle on a subscription basis was simply wishful thinking.

As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

Be happy in your victory. Eagle will live on and be better than ever. It's going to cost more, but we'll all get more.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 12:57:37 PM by LabSpokane »
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #115 on: January 21, 2017, 12:44:01 PM »
SOmeone said on Yotuube:
Quote
You can't go back to your original license... the fine print says the old license, regardless of the remainder of the term, will become invalid 120 days after initiation of a subscription.?

Haven't verified it...

From the AutoDESK Licensing URL provided by Jorge...

http://download.autodesk.com/us/FY17/Suites/LSA/en-US/lsa.html

From 1.2.1 ... quoted below:

1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If Autodesk or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other Autodesk Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Relationship Program Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At Autodesk’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. Autodesk reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by Autodesk, destroyed or returned to Autodesk or the Reseller from which they were acquired.


That means according to their own licensing agreement, if you upgrade to v8, any prior license then needs to be removed, *unless* they specifically give you a waiver to this (knowing AutoDesk the way I do ... I would want that in writing). 
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #116 on: January 21, 2017, 01:00:46 PM »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.

Steady paychecks are good for software engineers and their families. Behind the facade of the evil, corporate empire are people, just like you and me.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #117 on: January 21, 2017, 01:01:20 PM »

One point that hasn't been discussed here is which regions will Autodesk choose to sell to? I clicked on the subscribe button to find that, even if I WANT to give them money, they won't sell in the country I live in.
Here's another thought, prompted by my recent discovery that Digikey need software export paperwork to be able to use their device programming service - let's suppose some batshit-crazy US president decides to tighten export controls so US companies are no longer allowed to export  technical design software to certain countries.
With a subscription model , Autodesk would be forced to stop access to existing subscribers.

That is actually a *very* good point for *any* SaaS subscription ... not just this one.  I'd just *love* to hear how AutoDesk would dance around that one if asked, because we had issues with AutoCAD Map license years ago when I was working in Indonesia due to export restricts regarding crypto at the time....


/BGM
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 

Online texaspyro

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #118 on: January 21, 2017, 01:53:56 PM »
I'd say 80% of the outside design work I do have little ditties in the contracts that say NO development to be done on net connected systems.  New Eagle requires a net connection to keep working.  Also the EULA seems to say they can slurp your designs at will and ship them off to who knows who/where.   Autocad seems to be totally un-aware of the rabid IP protection that companies require these days.

I don't know how many sales Eagle has made off my recommendations / work (I suspect quite a few)...  but that revenue is going to stop.  There's basically no way I can use or recommend the new version of Eagle. So long Eagle... it's been a nice ride.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #119 on: January 21, 2017, 01:58:42 PM »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Because they make more money that way. Doesn't mean it's good for everyone else.

Steady paychecks are good for software engineers and their families. Behind the facade of the evil, corporate empire are people, just like you and me.

I have to agree with you on this one ... BUT ...  companies will always attempt to maximise profits from any give product - even if it is at the expense of user freedom. 

A healthy company typically is good for a product - especially when there is competition.  In this regard, the improvements to the Altium offerings I think have been largely due to the fact that Eagle was actually acquired by AutoDesk.  I have no doubt that when that happened, it was a huge kick in the bum for Altium, and that I think is actually a GoodThing (Tm). 

A company should be entitled to make a profit from it's product - even more so if it's good and they are continuing to develop and improve it. 

It the "how they go about it" part that usually leaves quite a few of us uncomfortable .... either on a basis of principle, or due to *what* we do, *how* we do it, or *where* we do it. 

... and often ... we don't get to choose those ....

So, how vendors change their method of subscription can have a big impact on whether we can/can't use a specific tool based on the handcuffs that they put on us in their attempts to extract the most amount of money from a product.  If they choose to change the rules, under which we work, and make it infeasible, then it is not just the outright cost of changing the tool, but it is also the time it takes to come up to speed with a new one.  People think of outright cost, but rarely do they think of the "time" factor involved to become familiar with a new tool - let alone any automation that they may have already added in order to become "efficient" with a tool. 

So ... CAD tools are really like "religion" ... and when the vendors force us to change, because they want to extract the last dollar from them with their new pricing/operating model, it's at this point that the users are more than entitled to get a little bit bitchy. 

/BGM
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2017, 02:13:49 PM »
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!
 

Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2017, 02:43:56 PM »
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!

Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.

Walking away from Eagle is readily done. But that Altium license starts at a grand. All up front.
 

Online EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #122 on: January 21, 2017, 02:54:15 PM »
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.
What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:
Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.
Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!
Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.
Walking away from Eagle is readily done.

Walking away form a dev tool is never easy.
It:
a) Takes time
b) Takes effort

Iaeen has a very good point. With the previous perpetual license you can simply protest any company changes etc by not buying the new version that comes out. And you pay zero penalty for doing that.
With the new subscription model if you want to protest then your tool stops working instantly you stop paying! You can't just continue on with business as usual using the tool like you can with a perpetual license, you now have the pain of switching to another tool. And you have to go through that pain until the company fixed the problem and then go back through the pain of switching back again when you are happy with them again.
No way subscription is a better tool than a perpetual license for protesting how a company does things.

You are right in that it's possible to change, but you are not thinking about the consequences of doing that.

Altium is a classic example of this. A huge number of people kept on using Protel 99SE for more than decade! Altium had to try and convince these customers to update to the latest version a decade after it came out, it made the company work hard for it and that's a good thing.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 02:59:48 PM by EEVblog »
 

Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #123 on: January 21, 2017, 02:55:23 PM »
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

What a complete load of nonsense!   :palm:

Previously if they "got out of line", you simply didn't buy that version or any version thereafter until the problem was fixed. They still didn't get your money same as canceling a subscription, and you kept going with your current license.

Now, to exercise your "powerful voice" you are forced to give up your dev tool plus access to all your projects which are saved in Eagle's proprietary format!

Do you refer to the super-duper-double-secret file, proprietary format that OSHPARK can read natively?  The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?  Oh, then there are the secret, proprietary scripts that convert Eagle into that great EU-subsidized ... I mean Free! Free! ... KiCad.

Walking away from Eagle is readily done. But that Altium license starts at a grand. All up front.

Yeah, okay. Maybe you can still get at your files. That doesn't make your gushing over this any less absurd.

This has nothing to do with empowering users. It is, in fact, the exact opposite.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #124 on: January 21, 2017, 03:00:52 PM »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

Subscription models work for everyone when there is continual added value.  Otherwise you are just paying an ever increasing price for the same product.

I have not purchased a new copy of MS Office since they went subscription.  I have not seen anything significant added in the new versions.  As MS upgrades their operating system they are degrading the usability of my old product.  Which is why I am finally transitioning to Libre Office.  When MS initiates their plan for Windows 10 as a subscription service it will undoubtedly trigger my complete transition to Linux.

Both the OS and the Office products have tried to mask the limited or non-existent increase in functionality by making substantial changes in the user interface.  While these changes are touted as big improvements they haven't objectively demonstrated the improvement.

The fundamental problem is that in a saturated market a licensing model is the only way for a company to continue to make make money.  And most software markets are saturated these days.  That is bad for the software companies and bad for customers.
 
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