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Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2017, 09:33:49 AM »
Hi

So ....where can you download a legit copy of 7.7? That appears to be the last version that my "perpetual" license applies to. Also, when I need to re-seat that license (due to a computer upgrade) ... how do I regenerate the license stuff?

......

Why do I have a feeling I'm not going to be happy about the answers to any Eagle questions from here on out? ....

Bob

Hi Bob,

I hope you're doing well. You can download V7.7 from ftp.cadsoft.de/eagle/program.

If you need your license resent in the future, please call us at 954-362-5228 or e-mail [email protected]

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2017, 09:34:18 AM »
Thanks for that tip, Jorge. I'm a bit embarrassed I never found that icon option!
 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2017, 09:49:41 AM »
Right...I have downloaded version 8 Free and I am greeted with a login window.
Goodbye EAGLE
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2017, 09:53:09 AM »
Hello Everyone,

It's been a long day, and I've been on three different forums talking about the subscription model. If you guys have any questions about it I'm happy to answer.

What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE. EAGLE has grown more in the last three months under Autodesk then it did in three years with Farnell. Here's some of the new stuff:
1. Improved manual routing engine, much nicer to use and operate. Incorporates loop removal.
2. Implicit Group, basically EAGLE can now behave the way most new users expect it to. You can define a group and then click and hold to move it, when no command is active EAGLE defaults to Group(Similar to select in other programs).
3. Slice functionality, you introduce a gap into various traces to simplify rework.
4. Designblocks, allows users to save portions of schematic and layout as if it were a library part allowing for easy reuse.
5. Pinsnapping on the schematic guarantees that nets always connect to the pins.
6. BGA Fanout Router, easily breakout complex BGAs.

All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

Let me know if you guys need anything.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
Autodesk Support
 

Offline jgarc063

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2017, 09:54:56 AM »
Right...I have downloaded version 8 Free and I am greeted with a login window.
Goodbye EAGLE

Hi pa3weg,

You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com. The freeware is still free, everything is just tied to an Autodesk account.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
 

Offline Karel

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2017, 10:02:38 AM »
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE.

Well, it appears that they are not interested in that,  Jorge.

Let me know if you guys need anything.

It appears they want the old licensing system back Jorge. Can you do that?



The difference between theory and practice is less in theory than
the difference between theory and practice in practice.
Expensive tools cannot compensate for lack of experience.
 
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Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2017, 10:14:39 AM »
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE.

And therein lies the problem, what Autodesk wants and what [now former] customers want are not aligned. A software subscription is just the push I need and I suspect many others to stop relying on the familiarity of using Eagle and make the effort to invest in learning to use something else.
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Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2017, 10:19:07 AM »
Hi pa3weg,

You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com. The freeware is still free, everything is just tied to an Autodesk account.

Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you.

Best Regards,
Jorge Garcia
I really do not think you understand the userbase of EAGLE very well.

Are you aware of the backtracking that happened under the farnell model with FlexLM?
Are you aware of the *HARD* requirement of some folks to work without network? ANY network?
You must be aware that some people prefer to not have "accounts". You leave them without option

Subscriptions are not Evil per-se, but my cost is increasing more than tenfold for my use case, and becomes something periodical.
my last upgrade was ~5000 euro of upgrade cost for 30 users, after three years. That is  55 euro per user per year.
Your plan is at least 500 euro per user per year. And if we choose not to upgrade for 5 years, it is cheaper.

We customers lose flexibility and the choice to upgrade whenever we want, or not.

I think we ALL agree that there are many functions and features that are a great improvement. But you are changing the EAGLE market position, and I think you are really underestimating the amount of users that will drop you.

I would gladly pay for an upgrade. Maybe even a bit more expensive upgrade if it brings me nice features like the BGA fan-out you are talking about. But I want to pay once, pay when I like to upgrade and then OWN the software (OK, the right to use it) perpetually.
And I can tell you whatever I personally like, but my company is for sure not going to approve subscription based models.

As stated earlier:
Subscription at a rational price - fine.
License forever at a rational price  - fine.
License forever that suddenly goes away when somebody on the other end changes their mind - not so much.
License forever that has no equivalent subscription - not so much.

With the exception that I do not particularly care about the latter.
And I would add: options! give the user two models to choose from. Maybe discount the subscription a tiny bit if you want to persuade them. Don't overdo that though...
If you want users to keep paying you money, just create a useful program and kindly ask your users to renew. It has worked for CadSoft for the past 29 (!) years.
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2017, 10:22:21 AM »
You need to have an autodesk account in order to use the freeware. You can get one for free at accounts.autodesk.com.

You just don't get it do you? It doesn't matter if the account is free or not. People don't want yet another account just so they can use software that has no business requiring one. People are tired of companies trying to force them into private walled gardens so that we can have 'cloud awesomeness'.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 10:24:35 AM by Tandy »
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Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2017, 10:39:34 AM »
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

I agree that Autodesk has done some good stuff with Eagle since they bought it. As I stated before, if there was still a reasonably priced perpetual license for version 8 then I would likely pay to upgrade my hobbyist license.

However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version. Therefore, it doesn't matter how good the work is that Autodesk has done. I already know that a subscription would be terrible value for me and the free version would be a step back from what I have now, even in the unlikely event that I were to put up with the always online requirement.

You may not like that, but that's the way it is. I'll stick with 7.7 until either I get around to switching to something else or you provide an alternative to the subscription model.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #60 on: January 20, 2017, 10:46:55 AM »
However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version.

If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 10:49:39 AM by EEVblog »
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #61 on: January 20, 2017, 10:50:15 AM »
My company has a "No software rental" policy as well. We have A LOT of Photoshop licenses that will stay as they are. But Autodesk like Adobe has figured out that even if only 50% subscribe the still take in a huge amount of money every 1/3/12 months. So they don't give a toss about the rest of us.

And that is why products like Adobe CS 6 perceptual and AutoDesk Autocad/Inventor 2013/2014/2015/2016 are selling at very high prices despite being "old" versions - because they are the last of their kind.

But FacePalm users like software subscriptions I find. :)

If I was EVER to consider a rental program - it would be based on -

1. LIFETIME Price Guarantee - price increases no higher than official inflation number
2. Annual Price not higher than old purchase price div 4 to 6
3. No product crippling over time - so if I have the highest feature set - I will ALWAYS have the highest feature set so a new product can't be pushed in above at a higher price unless I get cross graded with no extra subscription cost.
4. Files on MY system not on someone else's or in the cloud. Must be able to specify in settings NEVER to save in the cloud only locally.
5. Perceptual ACCESS/Ability to read/write/convert/export my files no matter what.
6. If company goes tits up - all source material goes public/open source if a buyer can't be found that will take over the full terms of the above.

So I do not think I'll ever rent software - unless it is crap cheap and give me a huge advantage. I do run online book-keeping - but export monthly in a format I can import into other systems. And I think the 30 US$ per month is worth it compared to "other systems" as it saves me HOURS of work every month.

I must admit as well - I use AutoDesk 360 Fusion - but that license so far is free. But again - every design made - gets downloaded and backed up after each finished iteration.

Would I pay for 360 Fusion - nope - not at all - you have to login every time and as my passwords are cryptic at best and different for every single "account" - so password is not memorable  - I simply often do not start Fusion 360 just because it ask me to login - and solve the issue some other way. It is also VERY slow to login and get ready due to all the "net sync" it does on every startup.  But it is a great tool to make 3D models in. But I would prefer a perceptual Autodesk Inverntor 2015/2016 license

 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #62 on: January 20, 2017, 11:02:40 AM »
4. Files on MY system not on someone else's or in the cloud. Must be able to specify in settings NEVER to save in the cloud only locally.
5. Perceptual ACCESS/Ability to read/write/convert/export my files no matter what.

It saddens me that you would even need to state that nowadays.
I have been getting nowhere with cloud based people if I explain them I will not use and can not use the cloud.
Now the new hype is SaaS (Software as a Service, which is just there because the cloud was getting old hat as a term.
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #63 on: January 20, 2017, 11:03:02 AM »
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)

As the software is only available on a subscription it will have to phone home to check if your subscription is up-to-date. No doubt there will be a certain number of days that it can function without talking to big brother otherwise it will stop working.
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Offline calexanian

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #64 on: January 20, 2017, 11:04:41 AM »
What I am really seeing here is that they are trying to present Eagle as a top shelf professional program which it is not, nor will it ever be. Its just good enough for small companies to use and get things designed. I think they have really made a bad choice. People on the more professional end, our company included will make the decision that if they have to put up with accounts and subscriptions they will step up to one of the bigger better cad packages such as Altium. Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.  Cadsoft had a nice little niche and I hope they got lots of money but I cant see that product no matter how much they "Improve" it fitting into this kind of model being a long term winner. Electronics is too small of a world for people to not know whats going on. They would have been better off going and developing a whole new system with big boy features and compete with the others for the big company money.
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Online 2N3055

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #65 on: January 20, 2017, 11:05:44 AM »
I will never give a money for a subscription... Unless it would be something like 50 USD per seat per year for a full version...   So I don't care...

This is what I have problem with:  So far, you would buy a perpetual license and you would decide when to upgrade.. And that would be when software would actually be made better... Better routing, usability speed... Something I would find useful enough to give money for..  So in standard model, user was in a control. If manufacturer wanted more money, they had to actually work for it...

In a subscription model, manufacturer is in control. You have to pay to keep on working. And every now and then, they resize icons, or do some stupid thing that has no productivity value... And that's upgrade to you..

And since first thing they did was to lie ( they promised no change in licensing will happen, and than, they made it Software as Service as their first "upgrade"), I have no trust in that product's future..
They will also probably change Eagle target market, and price it up in coming years...

No more Eagle for me.. I will have to go somewhere else soon...
 

Offline Stupid Beard

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #66 on: January 20, 2017, 11:13:30 AM »
However, I checked the subscription prices and limitations and I am not willing to pay them. In addition, I do not like the always online requirement nor do I like the requirement to have an account just to use the free version.

If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.

It requires an online license check every 14 days so you can get at most 14 days of offline use. I believe one of the posts I saw said they were going to update it so that it reverts to the free version after that time, but that's useless if you need to do work that requires the paid version.

So it's slightly better than "always" online, but it's still unacceptable in my opinion.
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #67 on: January 20, 2017, 11:17:19 AM »
Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.

Agreed

If you are happy with having an on-line account and all the cloudyness then you may as well go for Design Spark or Circuit Maker that don't have all the limitations imposed by the free version of Eagle.

There are plenty of low cost and free options for those looking for a perpetual license product.

If you have the budget to spend big money then why wouldn't you just get Altium and be done with it?


AutoDesk have just removed themselves from the niche that Eagle had. There will be enough people for the time being who just can't be bothered to switch and will suck up the subscription cost for convenience. It will even look great to the bean counters that all this money is coming in on a regular basis. But software lives and dies by its user community, as time goes on more people will drift away and something else will become the popular choice. The supply of new customers will dry up so AutoCad had better work hard in getting their investment buying CadSoft back in the next 3 years and in 5 years time they will be shutting Eagle down or selling it off.
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Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #68 on: January 20, 2017, 11:18:54 AM »
What I am really seeing here is that they are trying to present Eagle as a top shelf professional program which it is not, nor will it ever be. Its just good enough for small companies to use and get things designed. I think they have really made a bad choice. People on the more professional end, our company included will make the decision that if they have to put up with accounts and subscriptions they will step up to one of the bigger better cad packages such as Altium. Everybody else will go back to dip trace, or KiCad, etc.  Cadsoft had a nice little niche and I hope they got lots of money but I cant see that product no matter how much they "Improve" it fitting into this kind of model being a long term winner. Electronics is too small of a world for people to not know whats going on. They would have been better off going and developing a whole new system with big boy features and compete with the others for the big company money.
My point exactly

I think we ALL agree that there are many functions and features that are a great improvement. But you are changing the EAGLE market position, and I think you are really underestimating the amount of users that will drop you.

We are either going to go for a bigger player OR we go and support KiCAD to become better and fill the EAGLE gap
 

Offline ReneK

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #69 on: January 20, 2017, 11:19:50 AM »
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
Matt confirmed it here : http://www.eaglecentral.ca/index.php/t/52902/2cde8e03c073ccc8ea6889fcc1265653/

Quote: " If you lose your network connection, the SW has a 14-day heartbeat that will enable you to work offline for 14 days.  I know that some folks would prefer to never have to connect, but this is required to support a monthly subscription model that can be selectively enabled and disabled..."

So yes, EAGLE is sunk.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #70 on: January 20, 2017, 12:47:58 PM »
If it now requires an internet connection in order to work then Eagle is sunk. (Can anyone confirm this for the commercial version?)
That's grudgingly an acceptable compromise for a free version, e.g. Autium Circuit Maker does this, but it will still be massively unpopular as has been shown to be the case with Circuit Maker. But it is completely unacceptable for a paid version.

Dave, 

Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Don't just stop with Eagle though ... look at *all* of the vendors ... Altium, Eagle, etc.  What did they do right, and what have they completely and utterly screwed up. 

With the latest changes, I can see Eagle being the defacto-standard now disappearing, and in my case (being a fully paid "Ultimate Edition" user), I'm now in the pickle where due to my own work requirements, when I'm on site for work, I'm away for > 40 days at a time (and almost always disconnected when working in the centre of AU in middle of no-where), so the constant connectivity is just unworkable. 

If nothing else, it should be hellish amusing....   :)

/BGM
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 
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Offline PCB.Wiz

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #71 on: January 20, 2017, 01:11:42 PM »
The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.
I've not used it myself, but what I've seen of the Eagle to KiCad conversion looks quite good.

As more use it, I'm sure it will only get better :)

KiCAD also have a nice Shove Router, which I think is still 'somewhere in planning' for Eagle.

KiCAD does not mandate an internet connection.
 

Offline bgm

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #72 on: January 20, 2017, 01:21:14 PM »
Hello Everyone,

It's been a long day, and I've been on three different forums talking about the subscription model. If you guys have any questions about it I'm happy to answer.

Hokay ...

Quote
What I really want to talk about is all of the new features in EAGLE. EAGLE has grown more in the last three months under Autodesk then it did in three years with Farnell. Here's some of the new stuff:

yeah ... ok ...


Quote
1. Improved manual routing engine, much nicer to use and operate. Incorporates loop removal.
2. Implicit Group, basically EAGLE can now behave the way most new users expect it to. You can define a group and then click and hold to move it, when no command is active EAGLE defaults to Group(Similar to select in other programs).

Yay ...  finally something similar to what you and I were discussing before.  :)


Quote
3. Slice functionality, you introduce a gap into various traces to simplify rework.
4. Designblocks, allows users to save portions of schematic and layout as if it were a library part allowing for easy reuse.

Double yay! 

Quote
5. Pinsnapping on the schematic guarantees that nets always connect to the pins.
6. BGA Fanout Router, easily breakout complex BGAs.

Triple yay!

Quote
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation. Hopefully, the above will motivate skeptics to try the new EAGLE and see that subscription isn't enough to demerit all of the other things Autodesk has added to EAGLE.

... and it's at this point, it all turns to shit. 

Subscription for running *is* evil.  There are no "ifs", "buts" or "maybes" about it (subscription for updates is a different story - I don't so much have an issue with that providing it's tied to features vs fixes and it's reasonably priced). 

I'm still yet to see anything from the licensing department regarding what happens to those of us whom have forked over a fair chunk for change for the multi-user "Ultimate Edition" licenses.  Are we about to screwed over by AutoDESK (as they have done in the past for other software). 

Any online requirement, unless it is for updating is complete and utter bullshit.  Sorry, there is *NO* spin on this one.  This becomes particularly important when you are working "away" and in places which there *is* no connectivity for any length of time. 


/BGM
/BGM
"Forward to the past!"
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #73 on: January 20, 2017, 01:24:09 PM »
Dave, 
Now might be a good time for an AmpHour/EEVBlog Video Rant regarding CAD licensing stupidity, as pretty every *every* vendor (excluding KiCAD) seems to get this wrong. 

Was about to do a rant on it, already had the title "The Eagle Has Sunk". But I think that 14 day thing has saved them, at least for the low cost version. This limtation should not exist for the paid professional version though.
14 days is still not good of course, but it will still let 99% of people work offline.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2017, 01:27:45 PM by EEVblog »
 

Offline bluetopia

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #74 on: January 20, 2017, 02:10:19 PM »
I'm pretty sure the subscription model is not targeted at home / hobbyist users, but rather to further monetize the large corporations that use the software even more.  The home / hobby users just have no other option than to go with it, so these 1-10 license hobbyists / companies will drop them. 

But ultimately the 500-1000+ seat companies generally prefer subscription.  Got an influx of new developers, buy more licenses!  Downsizing the department? Let subscriptions lapse during the next renewal.  Accounting gets to claim the cost as operating expense rather than capital expense (I think I got that right) which I believe is preferable for reasons only Accountants could know.  You only pay for the licenses you use, and you pay less at a time, but you pay every year and within 2-3 years, you've paid enough to have bought the product at permanent prices.

Unfortunately, it's the way any professional caliber software is going.  We've seen it with Office and Adobe, and those are two suites that have a lot of home users. 

I'm sitting here with my Photoshop CS6, Office 2013, and Lightroom 5 and I'm not moving.  (I haven't quite been sucked into the eCAD stuff yet :P)
 


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