Author Topic: The Autodesk Eagle edition  (Read 119179 times)

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Offline iaeen

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #150 on: January 22, 2017, 02:06:51 am »
I'd like to understand more about Altium's subscription model... is this the only way to pay for Altium? Pay a high lump sum up front and then smaller fees every year in return for updates.

You say you can continue to use Altium Designer after ending your subscription... can you still install it on new computers?

Does it need to be online to activate?

Thanks

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Altium+designer+license
 

Offline justyn

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #151 on: January 22, 2017, 02:37:52 am »
Okay fair enough, but I was hoping for the non-marketing, EEVblog-filtered version! I'm trying to fully compare it to Eagle's setup. Never mind :)

Edit: you're right though, there is clearly enough info already out there, apologies.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 02:43:08 am by justyn »
 

Offline BMF

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #152 on: January 22, 2017, 02:45:47 am »


I'd like to understand more about Altium's subscription model... is this the only way to pay for Altium? Pay a high lump sum up front and then smaller fees every year in return for updates.

You say you can continue to use Altium Designer after ending your subscription... can you still install it on new computers?

Does it need to be online to activate?

Thanks
[/quote]

Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.
 
 
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Offline justyn

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #153 on: January 22, 2017, 03:05:06 am »
Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.

The option of choosing either a floating online license or offline (after installation) node-locked license was exactly what Eagle tried to introduce with v7, but rolled back after a number of weeks.

It sounded terrible back then, but suddenly it sounds like an improvement on their new approach!

$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Thanks for the insight.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you can reinstall the standalone version by using the same license file, but I wondered how you would move it to a different machine (since their .alf file or whatever is locked to your specific computer)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 03:10:24 am by justyn »
 

Offline JonnyH

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2017, 05:40:35 am »
Autodesk is clearly pushing Eagle into the traditional walled-garden situation. Next step (I'm speculating) will be to turn ULPs into an app-store type of thing, with support for signed/blessed ULPs only, etc. etc.

They could have rolled out a subscription scenario that actually didn't piss everyone off:
  • Don't have the head of the product lie to all of its users
  • Pricing that wasn't egegious
  • Graceful fallback for situations where connectivity isn't available
  • Ability to bundle a "snapshot" version of the current executable along with the data files - fine if it only runs those data files - that never expires
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest
It's pretty clear to me, given as how Eagle is now using the same licensing terms of all Autodesk products, that it's going to follow the same trajectory as all Autodesk products. Which makes me believe that the true decision makers are in the corporate suite at Autodesk, and that the project manager for Eagle is just doing what he's been told to do.

Bye, and thanks for all of the fish.
 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #155 on: January 22, 2017, 06:48:19 am »
I am seeing lots of good arguments! I love this forum!
Thank you Dave for including my posts in the video

I would like to make a couple of things clear from my viewpoint:
1) Like Tandy said, ownership is maybe a culturally preferred thing. I for sure want a perpetual license. But I could be persuaded for subscription if there are many benefits and the price is right. but the price is not right if you have many users

2) Can people not accept that the product has its own market position and use cases? we do not need big upgrades and more features. We are working with it now and are happy

3) For some people, ET phone home is NOT acceptable

4) I have been doing professional development with EAGLE. we do not use many BGAs and nothing else fancy, but 6 layer PCBs are quite common for us. We do not use an autorouter (saves on the perpetual license)
One important point regarding the definition of professional use. NONE of our users have PCB designer in their job titles. All engineers working with electronic designs are supposed to understand board lay-out. We have some experts obviously, but none of our users are not full time lay-outers. This may be less efficient time-wise, but it ensures everything is done according to the intent of the designer. And everything is peer-reviewed any way.

5) If all companies are going to subscription models, that does not mean you should accept it. Just do not buy from those vendors.

So for all of those fanboys that are talking about the tool getting better using subscriptions et cetera: we do not need the tool to be better, but we want it to be priced in the same market segment. Obviously, there are improvements we would like. I have nothing against the model or the way that Autodesk wants to develop it. Some features seem really useful. I will just not buy it. Fine there is no doubt the product will be improved. But we do not want to increase out cost tenfold just to get a better tool. The old one worked for us.

I can not stretch enough that the whole feature vs development vs subscription argument is interesting, and a good discussion to have. but what is at the heart of the issue is that EAGLE is changing their market position and license model, and existing users are pissed off because they want to keep the tool they know and love and can afford. How do I explain a 10x price increase to my management? I could explain a 2x difference maybe, if there are enough features we need that are in an upgrade.

Personally, perpetual is the only way for me, but that does not necessarily reflect my companies view.
If I want something more capable and modern, I will damn well get something else! Maybe in a few years time, EAGLE will be up there with the big players, but they have quite some work to do in that case. They have then left their market segment, and can expect all existing users to have switched to something else. That is fine too if Autodesk wants that. But they leave the existing customer base behind. I am sad that I have to switch, but we can not demand that Autodesk keeps EAGLE the way it is. We can not demand they keep their promises, we can only call them out as liars ("we are not going to subscription") and give them no business.

And finally: there is indeed the issue of migration. But when a company pisses you off just enough, you will do anything to get away. We have 30 licenses of version 7 like I mentioned, and there is no way that Autodesk gets any money. Even if they make the subscruiptions a lot cheaper, they have pissed us off and ruined their opportunities. The only thing that would help is undo everything and offer perpetual licenses again. With the old CadSoft EULA mind you.

At least CadSoft listened to the users when they backtracked on the FlexLM model. But I do not trust and will not trust Autodesk anymore. They have been such incompetent idiots in handling this change, I have been in touch with support a couple of times already. They have proven to not be worhty my custom.

Edits: fixed typo's, added clarification on professional use
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 07:22:34 am by pa3weg »
 
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Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #156 on: January 22, 2017, 09:08:23 am »
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't
 

Offline hli

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #157 on: January 22, 2017, 09:21:07 am »
One suggestion to Autodesk: why not make the currently rented license perpetual after the user has paid for one or two years?
In my area of work (during the day I'm a Java developer) there was a quite similar discussion when one tool vendor (IntelliJ) changed their license model to be subscription based.  E.g. see here and here. In the subsequent discussion one change was that when you have paid for one year, you get a perpetual fallback license for all version you paid for (meaning which came out during this year) - see the FAQ.
This can be a nice compromise - user are encouraged to continue paying to get access to new features, but when they feel they don't need them the4y can keep their license. This is especially important if you need to backup the software together with the work data (which is an important requirement).
Oh, and IntelliJ made sure you can use the license without internet connection as long as its valid (so for a monthly license it still needs internet once a month to update it...).
(Disclosure: I'm an IntelliJ user, and my company has a company-wide license for a range of their products).
 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #158 on: January 22, 2017, 09:37:43 am »
Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I do, and you should too. After all, you are agreeing to it.
If you do not agree, just decline.

Spoiler alert: It could make your life more difficult, but not impossible ;)
FUN alert: the look on the faces of sales people when you disagree.
 

Offline IanJ

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #159 on: January 22, 2017, 09:42:23 am »
$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Just a note......Altium CircuitStudio operates in much the same way, buy the standalone license for £765.00+VAT and you get the 1st year sub valued at £115+VAT thrown in.
Let the sub lapse and you lose updates and access to Altium's online vault.

The only bit I am not sure about......is it just as simple as letting the sub lapse say for a couple years, then buy it again for £115 and get all the nice updates......then let it lapse again......Hmmm!

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #160 on: January 22, 2017, 09:49:20 am »
Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.

I do, and you should too. After all, you are agreeing to it.
If you do not agree, just decline.

Spoiler alert: It could make your life more difficult, but not impossible ;)
FUN alert: the look on the faces of sales people when you disagree.
..and of course with a  sub model, they could change the EULA at any time
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Offline langwadt

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #161 on: January 22, 2017, 10:26:13 am »
  • Most importantly: get rid of their new rights to siphon your data/files into their servers. Again, can't understand why this isn't what folks are screaming about the loudest

Probably because all the folks are not even considering accepting that EULA. I wouldn't

Who reads an EULA? Almost no-one.


 

Offline KE5FX

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #162 on: January 22, 2017, 10:46:20 am »
People keep comparing EAGLE to Fusion360.  This is wrong and irrelevant.  In Fusion360, you can export your design to .step, .iges, .dxf, and any number of other standard formats supported by countless other tools.  It's OK for Fusion360 to be cloud-based, subscription-based, or whatever, because its author can't grab you by the proverbial pussy. 

For electronics CAD, there is no standard format that can represent your combined PCB and schematic design with all of its underlying metadata and library content.   Your tools and your data are inseparable.  If your tool vendor can revoke your ability to run their PCB CAD program, then they are the ones who actually own your work product.  Not you.  Not your customer.  The lame-ass tool peddler.

No one who cares about their work product can afford to allow their tool vendor to behave this way.  It really is that simple.
 
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Offline lachlanA

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #163 on: January 22, 2017, 11:45:00 am »
Try https://github.com/lachlanA/eagle-to-kicad for converting from eagle to Kicad

Works for most things,    but as always triple check the results and read the thinks it has Problems with.

Lachlan, (Author of eagle-to-kicad ulp)

I just got the email from Autodesk. The changes to Eagle actually sounded great and much needed.  :-+
Then I saw the subscription thing  :--  :--  :--  :--

I would have considered paying an upgrade fee for a perpetual license if there was a discount for existing licenses. But they can shove subscriptions, always online and requiring an account where the sun doesn't shine.

Oh well. Time to give KiCad another go.

The biggest pain now, is not just learning KiCad, but recreating all of my libraries made over the last 4+ years.

There are ULP scripts around somewhere to convert Eagle parts to KiCad, so converting libraries should not be too difficult as long as you double check everything before you use it.
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #164 on: January 22, 2017, 12:42:51 pm »
All that and more in just about 3 months, I'm excited to see what will come into EAGLE in the next year. I'm saddened that some of users just immediately react with a "Subscription is evil" response without really trying out the implementation.

Hi Jorge, thank you for your tireless efforts to support Eagle. I've been a user since the 3.x days.

I understand your frustration about people jumping in with the "subscription is evil" instead of being excited for the new features in Eagle. As a user I have to ask you this: what is the point about getting excited about these (truly great) features when I simply will not be using the software? You could make the software print gold bars, but with the current subscription model proposed it won't matter; we simply cannot use it.

That is why people are ignoring the new features. Autodesk has added a drop of sewage to a barrel of wine. It doesn't matter how amazing the wine is or will be; we now have sewage.

I refuse -- absolutely refuse -- to tie my business to software that may disappear tomorrow. Eagle was amazing for this, and now it is not. It is absolutely inconceivable that anyone would accept that their project files are useless at some point in the future when Autodesk shutters its license servers.

I have a rule: I do not use software for my core business that I cannot install on a VM and function on its own. Any embedded design has a VM with compilers/IDEs/debuggers/whatever on it and I can power on that virtual machine at any point in the future and work on the design. Cloud software is an automatic no-go.

I can't do it. I won't do it. I've been bitten by "the cloud" for fairly minor things in the past and I refuse to play that game. I'm very, truly sorry that Autodesk has decided to go this route.
 

Offline Wilksey

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #165 on: January 22, 2017, 01:03:47 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #166 on: January 22, 2017, 01:11:19 pm »
As for the sharecropper, get serious. With month to month licensing, if Autodesk gets out of line, folks can immediately shut down their subscription in protest. The money from users will now be closely coupled to the corporation's performance. It's a beautiful thing. And a powerful thing. You now get a powerful voice.

That is only true if there are no costs involved in switching. You know as well as anyone here that there are enormous costs involved in switching EDA packages. Libraries, experience/familiarity/competence in using the software, etc., etc....

Autodesk is trying to grab its users by the balls. I've already converted some designs to Altium, and others to Kicad. Altium at least has perpetual licensing options, and Kicad is free. CadSoft didn't get sold twice because of their perpetual license model, they got sold because they were completely inattentive to their users. They provided pathetic half-measures in new features and bug fixes, yet wanted users to pay, all while their competition was completely obliterating them on features and ease of use.

What Eagle had going for them was niche; they had a fair license model and price points, were multiplatform (something no other software had for most of Eagle's existence), and successfully found the sweet spots (half eurocard size, 2 and 4 layer only versions...) which allowed many, many people to use their software at fair prices. I was a pro-license user for 25 years (sch+pcb only, nobody uses autorouting). I left when they gave me new icons and a half-assed hierarchical design in v7 and wanted another $600 from me.

Programmers need to eat, but this isn't an "us vs them" game. We all need to eat, and subscription based models are too heavy-handed and one sided to be palatable to me.  They remove all control over my own company and data and place it in the hands of the software vendor who owns the software. Autodesk could have had a lot of very happy customers if they offered reasonable subscription price points ($65/mo if I need 4 layers? eff that) and a perpetual license, offline option. Oh well.
 

Offline aandrew

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #167 on: January 22, 2017, 01:13:41 pm »
The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?

Spoken as someone who has never actually used said importer.

Yes, Altium can pull in Eagle schematics and layouts and libraries... poorly. I'm thankful for the XML format, but it's not a panacea that magically makes it trivial to jump to a new EDA package.
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #168 on: January 22, 2017, 01:45:21 pm »
You won't be surprised to know that V8 has been patched already, twice, one to remove registration and it's 14 day annoyance - still operating with freeware limitations.  Another patch has been produced to unlock the limitations of the freeware edition.

Didn't take long!

As always it is something that software companies fail to realise, their protection measures only cause inconvenience for their legitimate users. People who are going to rip it off will find a way and as a bonus not have to suffer the annoyances. Half the time the people who crack the protection are not even interested in using the software, it is just the challenge of breaking it.
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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #169 on: January 22, 2017, 02:51:28 pm »
The same proprietary, double-encrypted format that imports directly into Altium?

Spoken as someone who has never actually used said importer.


The hell I haven't.  I have done so and got a perfectly editable PCB in Circuit Studio.
 

Offline JoeN

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #170 on: January 22, 2017, 03:45:01 pm »
DipTrace rules.  Eagle drools.  And Autodesk absolutely sucks ass.   :-DD
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Offline free_electron

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #171 on: January 22, 2017, 04:15:22 pm »
Yes you can buy a perpetual  license and then pay yearly for a subscription to receive updates and access to server based data. The yearly fee is not cheap $1800 I think. You can use a floating license where Altium logs in using the web. That way you can have Altium installed on work, home, laptop, and lab computers and just use one license. Or you can use a node lock license if you don't want to use the internet. You can reinstall with a perpetual license without an active subscription. You can't use the floating license without a subscription (i think).

My issue with Altium is the yearly fee is not resulting in significant feature upgrades. Since Altium is planning on higher end packages the advanced features are likely to remain as pay extra or will require a package upgrade. $1800/yr is a lot for bug fixes.

A perpetual licence is NOT node locked. Install software, enter username and password and click activate.
The AIF file does not hold the licence. It is user 'user signature' when activating you connect to an altium server that then sends a token to unlock you features.

I can install on as many computers as i want ( legally altium allows 1 desktop + 1 laptop ) , but : i can ONLY use on one machine at a time. The software continuously scans the network for other users of the same licence and will come with a popup that the licence is in use.

If you download the aif file locally ( after activation) you can take the machine off-network.

The option of choosing either a floating online license or offline (after installation) node-locked license was exactly what Eagle tried to introduce with v7, but rolled back after a number of weeks.

It sounded terrible back then, but suddenly it sounds like an improvement on their new approach!

$1800 is a lot to pay each year with no guarantee of new features. Given that you have to log in to their site to activate it, if you stop subscribing will Altium still allow you to reinstall your old version on new machines? I can't tell from the docs.

Thanks for the insight.

Edit: just to be clear, I know you can reinstall the standalone version by using the same license file, but I wondered how you would move it to a different machine (since their .alf file or whatever is locked to your specific computer)
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #172 on: January 22, 2017, 07:19:42 pm »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

It's not always the most popular person who gets the job done.
 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #173 on: January 22, 2017, 08:44:35 pm »
Well, I didn't actually say I am not one who never reads an EULA. However, that aside, I think it is a Utopian view to suggest people have real power to decline an EULA. I couldn't so no to Windows, even though I am typing this on a Linux machine. Utopia famously was a place that doesn't actually exist.

If you become locked in to a software product for any reason including the sheer cost of retooling around a new one and the company makes a sudden change to the EULA you are screwed. Ideally you should go on under the terms you agreed to and the new users start on the new agreement. That would at least be some incentive for vendors to think carefully about EULA terms and not be so capricious about changing them and skewing the terms to suit themselves so much.

I agree with most of that. But the idealist in me is saying that the only power you have to change this is decline. It does not help if you begrudgingly accept. Things will only change is users dump the vendor. See what happened on the FlexLM intdoduction on v7: no-one updated, and I told CadSoft support I would not if they included FlexLM
If enough users do not buy your product and tell the vendor about that as well, with a reason, they have evidence to present at board meetings that their users are not going to take it.
If you just rant on this forum and do not get in touch with Autodesk, that does not exactly prove anything to them.
I am not accusing you of ranting by the way, that was a generic statement.

We have had bigger vendors come over with products, demo-ing and spending lots of time on their end to get their software sold. and in the end, when we were ready to sign, I have declined EULAs. Sales people are not happy with that, and will have to report back at the company they almost made a sale, but the EULA was declined. That will make them look at it if you are a big customer compared to them or if there are many customers doing the same. This is how boycots work.
You would need good arguments for that, but transferring data to the US from the EU is a hard no-go on our end.

Again: I did not even read the EULA, because there are other red flags that came up earlier.

And regarding microsoft: you can do it if you are big enough:
https://www.cnet.com/news/belgian-government-chooses-opendocument/
This is an example of pressures for change, not a comparison to this licensing case. They are VERY different

Edit: fixed typo
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 08:48:11 pm by pa3weg »
 

Offline pa3weg

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Re: The Autodesk Eagle edition
« Reply #174 on: January 22, 2017, 08:58:56 pm »
You guys are funny. Microsoft, Adobe and many others have moved to a subscription model. I wonder why...

I'm pretty sure it wasn't because they were unable to afford to pay their developers to continually develop their software, as you assert is the issue above.

And even if CadSoft could not afford their programmers, there is always the option to increase the pricing slightly for bigger, professional users. Or even decrease the single user professional price to lock in more customers. I don't know what market studies CadSoft did in the past, so they may have been at their optimum already but there was just no market.
I feel that my 30 user license is maybe too cheap, but the single license is too expensive for most people.
So they could have changed their discount structure.

However, switching license model without much going for it just kills of any incentive.

The problem lies in the fact that Autodesk has one universal software model for the whole company. There is five things that can happen in my opinion
1) Autodesk gives up and tries to sell EAGLE again. I do not think there will be any buyers, unless Autodesk takes their loss and sells below their original aquisition price
2) Autodesk caves in and brings back the old licensing.
3) Autodesk does not care and continues the path they have taken
4) Autodesk carefully listens to the market and decides on a different licensing scheme, dual licenses, perpetual standalone, lease, or whatever.
5) The product is just completely killed off

I am hoping they somehow spin CadSoft out of Autodesk again...but I think that is highly unlikely
 


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