Altium designer 18 vs Cadence Allegro 17.2

[Narside]

Hello. Has anybody compared functionality and usability of the two hi-end EDAs at the current state? I'm mostly interested in the process flow of designing, simulating and pcb routing. At preious state it seemed to me that these softs could be compared like Solidworks vs Catia relatively in terms of possibilities

[TiN]

It does not really matter,  you'll be using the one which your employer have license for anyway. .
Both tools of this level and price allow to design and do 99.9999% of things that you will ever need.

[Gibson486]

They will both get you pissed at some point

[ahbushnell]

It does not really matter,  you'll be using the one which your employer have license for anyway. .
Both tools of this level and price allow to design and do 99.9999% of things that you will ever need.

Sounds like he may be a decision maker in selecting a software package. 

[nctnico]

I've had both demonstrated during the past couple of weeks. I think both packages offer the same functionality but Orcad allows to buy only what you need so it can be made less expensive compared to Altium. Also the minimum PC system requirements for Orcad are much lower so it is likely to run smoother than Altium. In addition Orcad PCB Editor/Allegro (the PCB design package) has a native (PC) Linux version as well.

[eeviking]

I think the CAD analogy would be more like Altium is Inventor and Allegro is Solidworks ? 

[CadenceAE]

We have many experiences of companies doing comparisons between Allegro and other tools.    Two design teams both start with the same pre-built libraries in their platform and then have to make a complex design.   The designs consist of DDr interfaces, high speed serial interfaces, RF,  multiple power rails, mechanical, price, life-cycle and electrical constraints. The design cycle has typical ECO's thrown into the test.    In these situations Allegro consistently produces a finished functioning PCB in less time, smaller form factor and less layers, at lower cost, than the competitive team.   The main reasons for this is the Allegro platform has features like HDI routing, circuit replicate,  embedded electrical field solvers,  online manufacturing and assembly checking, team design that includes SI and PI,  and constraint driven design.   When you're making a product that you intend to sell millions of, do you want your design team to use the tool they think is the easiest to use or a high end tool that may require some training.   In other words.. if you have to dig a hole,  do you want a shovel or a bulldozer. 

[Ice-Tea]

...if you have to dig a hole,  do you want a shovel or a bulldozer.

Well, in my garden I'd very much prefer a shovel...

[EEVblog]

We have many experiences of companies doing comparisons between Allegro and other tools.    Two design teams both start with the same pre-built libraries in their platform and then have to make a complex design.   The designs consist of DDr interfaces, high speed serial interfaces, RF,  multiple power rails, mechanical, price, life-cycle and electrical constraints. The design cycle has typical ECO's thrown into the test.    In these situations Allegro consistently produces a finished functioning PCB in less time, smaller form factor and less layers, at lower cost, than the competitive team.   The main reasons for this is the Allegro platform has features like HDI routing, circuit replicate,  embedded electrical field solvers,  online manufacturing and assembly checking, team design that includes SI and PI,  and constraint driven design.   When you're making a product that you intend to sell millions of, do you want your design team to use the tool they think is the easiest to use or a high end tool that may require some training.   In other words.. if you have to dig a hole,  do you want a shovel or a bulldozer.

Cadence employee says Allegro is the best

In these situations Allegro consistently produces a finished functioning PCB in less time, smaller form factor and less layers, at lower cost, than the competitive team.

I have to call BS on that one.
Form factor, number of layers and cost have essentially nothing to do with better or more efficient features in a PCB tool, it comes down to the PCB designers skills.
Less time, ok, sure, but a more efficient PCB tool with more automation feature does not magically make your products smaller and use less layers. Any capable PCB designer can do the exact same board in any package.

[Pack34]

Altium has the ability to do everything I've ever needed and is just simply easier to use. I believe OrCAD is supposed to be easier to manage with larger teams but Altium has it's own Vault setup and I believe it can plug into the Solidworks PDM with the Solidworks Connector.

If you have the choice I would go down the Altium route just because it "feels" like more polished software. The last thing you want is your tool to inhibit your design flow.

One powerful thing is that Altium does directly integrate with revision control repositories (SVN and GIT).

[Omicron]

Also the minimum PC system requirements for Orcad are much lower so it is likely to run smoother than Altium.

I've run both Altium and Orcad in a VMWare virtual machine on a Mac. Admittedly this is not a common use case, but at least in this context Orcad is dead slow to the point of being barely usable (and this is schematic editing, not PCB layout). Altium on the other hand runs nearly as well in a VM as it runs on my dedicated PC. I haven't installed Orcad on my physical PC because my license is tied to the VM. This is another disadvantage of Orcad btw, the license is tied to a machine. I hate that. I find Orcad very antiquated compared to Altium, at least the schematic editing part. I haven't used the PCB layout part but I did use the "Allegro physical viewer" to review some PCB designs. And judging from how unintuitive (to me) that is to use compared to Altium I haven't had the heart to even try Orcad's PCB layout alternative.

[Ice-Tea]

but I did use the "Allegro physical viewer" to review some PCB designs. And judging from how unintuitive (to me) that is to use compared to Altium...

Oh, good, I thought it was just me!

[hammy]

This is another disadvantage of Orcad btw, the license is tied to a machine.

You can order an USB dongle and use Allegro/OrCAD on any PC you want.
The license you are talking about is bound to the MAC address. This is mostly the standard.
Another way is to float licenses with a license server, but this is something for big installations.

The Altium gui is more Windows style, the OrCAD/Allego UI design is more Unix style. The separation in several programs is - in my opinion - a benefit not to clutter the main interface and helps a lot to orient oneself. Other people love the way Altium is covering everything in one window/program. It depends on you what is more convenient to you.
At the end its just a tool to do the job.

The money is another aspect:
OrCAD Professional + CIS is on par (and in some aspects beyond: length matching, SI, Simulation) with Altium, but cheaper!
Allegro with the possible add-on options is way ahead of the capabilities of Altium, but more expensive.
But does this matter for you? Whats your main focus of work, which features are needed?

But: OrCAD and Allegro are two products with way different features and capabilities. (http://www.parallel-systems.co.uk/matrix/)

How good or bad a design is, depends on the human who creates the design.

PS: A good source to get an impression of Allegro/OrCAD are the free videos from Robert Feranec on yt (or his Fedevel OrCAD course).

[Deridex]

I would just try both and then buy the one i like more. Use the free trials, that are offered. I think it's alot about personal taste.

As example i like the GUI of Altium, which i use at work.

I think you can create good layouts in both. But i would not count any anyone that does marketing-claims like seen a bit above

[ThomasDK]

They are both excellent packages, each with their own strengths.

Footprint and schematic symbol creation is a lot faster/easier in Altium. The 3D integration in Altium makes Allegro look like something from the eighties.

On the other hand the polygon handling in Allegro is miles ahead of Altium.

Personally I'm equally productive in both.

[asmi]

The 3D integration in Altium makes Allegro look like something from the eighties.

This is no longer the case. Last year Cadence made a lot of improvements in this area - added support for moving flexes, integration with the layout (you can move the part in 3D, and it will move in the layout at the same time), cutting plane support, etc.

[Pack34]

The 3D integration in Altium makes Allegro look like something from the eighties.

This is no longer the case. Last year Cadence made a lot of improvements in this area - added support for moving flexes, integration with the layout (you can move the part in 3D, and it will move in the layout at the same time), cutting plane support, etc.

What release was this in? I'm running 17.2

[asmi]

What release was this in? I'm running 17.2

Current version is 17.2-2016-S046 (you can see the version on a start page of Capture). They release an update every two weeks. Some of these 3D features are still considered experimental, so this is an ongoing project for them.

[glaxoni]

I would just try both and then buy the one i like more. Use the free trials, that are offered.

This is what I'd advise also but personally I prefer Altium

[robertferanec]

It depends ....

1) My personal opinion: Personally I love AD18 more than Cadence. It is a complete package - you have everything in one place from Schematic, libraries, pcb, output documents. It is also very intuitive and user friendly. Altium is the software what I have and use in my company (I also have OrCAD Professional, but I have not had the right project for it yet). HOWEVER, if I had a bigger team e.g. 3 and more HW engineers, I would seriously consider to go for Cadence, see the next point.

2) Price point of view: AD is getting more and more expensive (I think it is around 10 000 USD or even more, correct me if I am wrong) and Cadence can be interesting from price point of view. Based on the information I have, OrCAD Professional starts at $2K (for a standalone license) and includes advanced features. The OrCAD Professional has everything what you need for designing any board (you can use OrCAD Professional to design complex and advanced boards).

So, if your budget is limited, the 2k OrCAD Professional is perfect choice. Or, if your team is bigger, Cadence can make sense. You only buy a few expensive licenses and a lot of work can be done with cheap $443 license (I think that is current price for OrCAD Standard). Disadvantage of OrCAD is, that you may need some time to get used to it and they still need to improve some stuff. But I know they are working on it ...

Still, if you have for example 3 engineers, that would be like 6k vs 30k for buying the software ... big difference, and I would go for Cadence, even it is not as nice and easy to use as Altium (Altium has some cheaper options like CircuitStudio, but I would not go that way).

3) Big board design & Simulations: If your designs are based on big boards (e.g. server boards) or if you require simulations, definitely go for Cadence. This will cost you more money, but everything works together e.g. you can add info into schematic or into PCB and this info can be transferred and used in simulation. Cadence simulations are really good, Altium is not good in simulation. Also, a lot of big boards have reference designs in Cadence, this can save you a lot of time and money.

4) Your boards are used in mechanical complex design: consider Altium. I talked to some engineers who use Altium, because it helps them to work closely with mechanical guys.

5) Learning for future: If you are planning to be a hardware design engineer, learn both softwares

I am not sure if these points will help you, or they will confuse you even more

PS: Non of these companies is paying me, nor Altium nor Cadence, but I do have some free licenses from them.

[oyvkar]

We did a comparison of these two earlier this year. Our main concern was finding a software that would let us design boards with extremely many components (10 000 +). Our findings were that Altium would stop working after placing about 3000 to 4000 components on the board, while OrCAD/Allegro continues working, although with some slowdowns, beyond 20 000 components. Might be worth considering if you need to design very large/complex boards.

[Ice-Tea]

Just wondering... Was that Altium 17 or 18?

[oyvkar]

This was around the time of Altium 18's release, so we tried both AD17 and AD18. My memory is a bit hazy on the performance of Altium 17, but I believe it handled about 1000 to 2000 components before halting. Altium 18 was much better in that regard, handling 3000 to 4000, as mentioned.

[Ice-Tea]

Interesting... Thanks. At least the switch to 64 bit under the hood was not a total waste 

[LTimko]

Based on the information I have, OrCAD Professional starts at $2K (for a standalone license)
...
You only buy a few expensive licenses and a lot of work can be done with cheap $443 license (I think that is current price for OrCAD Standard).

I'm afraid these softwares cost more than you think:

• OrCAD PCB Designer Standard - New, Perpetual License $2,670.00
• OrCAD PCB Designer Standard - New, 1 Year Lease $1,340.00
• OrCAD PCB Designer Professional - New, Perpetual License $7,040.00
• OrCAD PCB Designer Professional - New, 1 Year Lease $2,300.00

Source: https://www.ema-eda.com/products/cadence-orcad/orcad-pcb-designer-suite/pricing

[robertferanec]

I would not buy through that page. When I was buying my OrCAD Professional, I have got contact to a sales guy from friend of mine and I bought my OrCAD Professional USB dongle for less than 2k couple of years ago.

The prices which I mentioned in my post above were told to me directly by Cadence a few weeks ago when I asked about general prices. These are the exact words "OrCAD professional is $2K for a standalone license or $5K for a floating user license, maintenance and support is $1.8K per year.". So it should be somehow possible to buy it.

I do not want to sound like promoting OrCAD. I just know, that they almost always have a special offer for Orcad PCB Designer Standard because I was looking into that some time ago. I know they had this $443 offer. When I tried to google today for "orcad standard", this is the first link what I have got (price $299USD):
https://www2.orcad.com/Extranet/96712/forms.aspx?msgid=602ab9ce-de26-41d7-8bda-91c1be958206&LinkID=CH00096712eR00000073AD

[nctnico]

It seems to me that you get a reduced price for the first year and then pay the normal subscription price.

[hammy]

Same here in EU. The price you get from Cadence/FlowCAD is way less than the numbers LTimko found online.
The subscription price stays the same, I renewed some days ago.

[LTimko]

I'am very surprised and I'm wondering why can't they promote their low prices better? It can be a huge difference.
We bought an OrCAD Professional around 9000€ (base price) in 2014. Last year we bought Altium17 for 7000€. If we had known this earlier we would have bought OrCAD licenses instead...

Anyway, FlowCAD also mentions 2500€ for the Standard version in their homepage: http://www.flowcad.de/OrCAD_PCB_Designer_Standard.htm

[hammy]

I'am very surprised and I'm wondering why can't they promote their low prices better? It can be a huge difference.
We bought an OrCAD Professional around 9000€ (base price) in 2014. Last year we bought Altium17 for 7000€.

Well, this was four years ago. At this time v16 was on sale. The prices we mentioned here are from the v17.2 timeframe (2 years).
The other key part is maybe the size of your company and the discount you get?

For 9k you asked for several options, right? PSice? CIS + CIP? PCB High-Speed Option? Advanced Analysis?

Real world example:
In mid 2017: AD17, one license, 1 year subscription = 5600€ (without tax!)
Early 2017: OrCAD Professional v17.2, 1.5 years subscription, CIS = 3250€ (without tax!)

Both quotes for a newly founded company. Both companies have a discount for startups.

The support from FlowCAD upfront was excellent. The needs for my designs were analyzed and the matching package and options were defined and I got a test license for some weeks to test this package.

Altium on the other hand was just a sink or swim. One short call, five minutes to get an impression of my financial capabilities and two days after that an offer via email with the already mentioned price.

Even if the price of both packages would be the same, I would have choosen Cadence! Excellent support and service for me, still to this day.

[LTimko]

For 9k you asked for several options, right? PSice? CIS + CIP? PCB High-Speed Option? Advanced Analysis?

I just looked right now and it was OrCAD Professional 16.6 for €8750 (dongled network license + 1 year support). We bought only one plus option: CIS module for €3500. All prices were without tax and from a FlowCAD reseller.

[nctnico]

For 9k you asked for several options, right? PSice? CIS + CIP? PCB High-Speed Option? Advanced Analysis?

I just looked right now and it was OrCAD Professional 16.6 for €8750 (dongled network license + 1 year support). We bought only one plus option: CIS module for €3500. All prices were without tax and from a FlowCAD reseller.

OrCad professional has a more advanced PCB design package. The regular version is cheaper (even with CIS). Perhaps you also bought the CIP option without knowing it. Unfortunately Orcad pricing isn't very clear and software sellers try to make you spend more if they can.

[LTimko]

Unfortunately Orcad pricing isn't very clear and software sellers try to make you spend more if they can.

That's the point!

[daista]

Hi,

So far I have found the following information in this post:
Altium17 for 7000€
Altium17 for 5600€ (without tax)

Does anyone have a more updated info on Altium18? I am looking for the price for a single floating licence for one year.
BTW, it seems that Altium does not offer permanent licenses anymore, am I correct?

[Deridex]

Hi,

So far I have found the following information in this post:
Altium17 for 7000€
Altium17 for 5600€ (without tax)

Does anyone have a more updated info on Altium18? I am looking for the price for a single floating licence for one year.
BTW, it seems that Altium does not offer permanent licenses anymore, am I correct?

As far i know, altium still offers permanent licenses. I think just the updates are bound to the subscription.

[nctnico]

Yes, Altium sell perpetual licenses as well.

[rfinley]

(Slow Cadence)  Cadence uses a software library for their menu structure for Orcad CIS that is third-party.   

My co-workers on Windows10 machines and VMs were significantly impacted by the Fall Creator update change made in Windows 10 by Microsoft. 

As the admin/designer, I was on windows7 at the time, so I didn't notice.  But, it was my job to deploy the update as soon as Cadence released it.

https://community.cadence.com/cadence_technology_forums/f/pcb-design/38113/orcad-capture---slow-graphics-response-on-windows-10

[rfinley]

YouTube videos for Altium seem to feature unrealistic net groups having no crossovers needing vias and obvious time compression during mouse moves.  Using an FPGA as your netlist demo?   I think we stopped letting the mechanical engineers and the CFO choose the pcb tools a long time ago.

So, Halloween is happening, snow is coming, and here’s what’s at stake. 

CES show in January, expensive-to-change trip to Europe and my gym appointments.

Orcad, currently offered free for the cost of maintenance, has the same fundamental real-time interactive routing functionality as the full license.  Cadence isn’t worried about disappointing those who paid $10K for their software, they are worried about disappointing those who pay up to $120k for the full license that Apple, Google, Cray and IBM expect..

If you have dreams of working for a company that buys millions of parts annually for a compute device, its hard not to notice it’s often Cadence experience in the job description.