Avoid PCBway

[ebclr]

They make a Hugh profit on freight,

I changed to http://www.elecrow.com/ and is more fair , with real freight price,  good quality and better price than pcbway.

[Siwastaja]

It's not a scam to make "profit" on freight, if the price is what is shown. And it's not called "profit" until the costs of handling and shipping are deducted. Many non-Chinese companies make 10x more on arbitrary shipping costs.

I have used PCBWay several times because I always compare the total price, with shipping (pcbshopper.com does this for you) and don't consider myself "scammed".

But I'm getting too tired of these Chinese PCB manufacturers playing their guerilla marketing games on these forums. This time an Elecrow bot posting (reported). Thanks but no thanks.

[ebclr]

I'm not a boot,  I'm a user of the forum tired to be scammed by pcbway. I Can share my nice experience with anyone i want,  It's a good idea to have a place to report idiots on the forum

[Rbastler]

I think the shipping costs for express delivery are ok. Sure they cost more then double the 10$ per 10 10*10cm PCB, but because of the fact the they are produced in China, I see no problem. Especially because the PCB were delivered in about four days or so. From the order to reeving the PCBs it took with express delivery about a week. For that pay high shipping costs with no problem. If you have a problem with customs because of that, i'ts your fault. Ask them next time to write a lower value on the parcel. But you should know this practice, when you order something from China.
Plus i'ts no scam on making profit on shipping... Afaik you can choose free shipping, It'll only take you a lot more time.

[firewalker]

You "ought" to choose the correct words if you don;t want people "jumping" on you. What you describe is far from a scam. 

Alexander.

[Siwastaja]

Wow. And I'm not a shoe. Good for Hugh they make him profit.

Their express delivery, which took some 2-3 days last time when I ordered, around the freaking World, did cost less than one fifth of what it normally costs from the US, or less than one third what it costs from Estonia, literally a few hundred kilometers away, using the same freaking courier.

It pisses me off that it's sometimes almost impossible to get goods from the US without paying something like 100USD in postage fees (for some minimalistic 100 gram package). Even that is not a scam. Just bad customer service. But it hasn't happened with PCBWay.

[janoc]

I'm not a boot,  I'm a user of the forum tired to be scammed by pcbway. I Can share my nice experience with anyone i want,  It's a good idea to have a place to report idiots on the forum

Well, with that attitude I am not sure who is that idiot here. If you don't understand that shipping from the other side of globe actually costs money, then I am really sorry for you, mate.

I don't know since when being expensive (and they even aren't that expensive to start with) qualifies as scam. New meaning of the word, it seems.

[ebclr]

Both are on the same part of the globe, one is twice the price of the other, Who is the one ?

[Kilrah]

List the exact numbers and service levels if you want insight on that.

And yes courier fees can vary a lot depending on location.

[matseng]

Courier fees also vary a lot on the deal the sender got with the courier company (or as the case often in Shenzhen, the deal with the agent/forwarder for the courier company).

[matseng]

But it kinda feels sucky when the the company calculates the weight of the package in advance and charges you for that particular weight, but when you receive the package the actual weight is less than half - and they don't refund the difference unless you make a fuss about it in public.  Happened to me twice #truestory

[Buriedcode]

I recently used PCBway for the first time.  Had issues with the paypal screen timing out, but was told I could just send the payment direct.  There was an extra £16 to pay from DHL, which apparently is a DHL thing (seen the '£16' value mentioned a lot for different items) its not PCBway that charge this or make money form it. The shipping was indeed by far the biggest cost but.. - it took 4 days between uploading my gerbers, and having the boards in my hands.   £40 for 10 boards (I needed 5 immediately, another few for future orders) in 4 days.

I cannot say I have used many chinese PCB companies, or ordered very large quantities, but frankly with a 5-day lead time, the same boards would have cost upwards of £150 from a UK company that does fast prototype service.  The PCB quality is excellent, the best I've seen.  I don' see how it can be a 'scam' because as far as I could tell, PCBway only use either standard international shipping, or DHL, and DHL *always* costs a lot.  They may add a fee on top of this but the boards have to be packed, boxed, and labelled - thats not the couriers job.

So, four days to be manufactured, tested, packed, and shipped form the other side of the world for £40.  Also, as the bulk of the cost was in US dollars, the sterling is pretty weak at the moment, so before the silly 'brexit' it would have been about £32.  Thats £3.20 a board, for 4 days.

So aside from a hiccup with the paypal process - wheres the scam?  What were you charged, and for what, and how long did it take?  I'll admit I didn't like the sudden 'oh btw, you also need to pay £16' I got from DHL via SMS, but that isn't PCBways fault.  And it was more just 'unexpected' than 'scam!!', it's still very cheap for the time and quality - I can actually afford to make the ~230 odd projects I've designed over the years that didn't warrant the cost of a custom board. 

Ok, this is starting to sound like a review but you can't just say '<company> scammers!' without any details and expect a rallying cry to your cause.

[janoc]

That's actually pretty good price! 10 boards around 10x10cm from someone like Seeed or iTead are around $25-30 already - and that is with regular, 2-3 weeks turnaround time!

So 40 pounds with a DHL express shipping to Europe is a bargain. BTW, the 16 extra is likely what DHL charges for handling customs. They have a flat fee for it somewhere in that range.

Ok, this is starting to sound like a review but you can't just say '<company> scammers!' without any details and expect a rallying cry to your cause.

Well, he can - and also can expect getting sued for libel in civilized countries.

[ebclr]

Try to add or remove 1 cm on your board , the low price illusion will appear imediately

[free_electron]

i've used PCBway a number of times. elecrow does not have the same capabilities of PCBway.

PCBway can etch down to 4/4 and does 6 layers as well.

Quality of PCB way is excellent.

[wraper]

Quality of PCB way is excellent.

It's far from excellent IMO, but from one order I made it was better that what Elecrow supplied to me ever (complete hit and miss).

[Monkeh]

Try to add or remove 1 cm on your board , the low price illusion will appear imediately

What?

[SL4P]

I'm not a boot,  I'm a user of the forum tired to be scammed by pcbway. I Can share my nice experience with anyone i want,  It's a good idea to have a place to report idiots on the forum

I've used PCBWAY too, and their communications, pricing /product & delivery was excellent.
I've used PCBCART as well - very similar results.
Plan your work well, and you get what you pay for.

[mrpackethead]

Im going to defend them. I've spent over $25k with them in the last 12 months,  several orders a week. I buy stencils and boards, and I'm absolutely wrapped with them..  They do a great job.

[janoc]

Try to add or remove 1 cm on your board , the low price illusion will appear imediately

Either put up or shut up. Anyone can check the actual prices on pcbshopper.com and they don't match what you are saying.

[ebclr]

Pcbshopper does not match reality

[Monkeh]

So you're not pleased that they charge more for shipping than another company via a different service. Boo bloody hoo. Doesn't make them scammers.

[ebclr]

Ok let's remove the word scammer, and say It's not for me to finalize the batle with people fighting to receive USD 25 bonus for indication

[Iron Downey]

Oh, come one. It's Registered Air Parcel and it would take 7-25 days. You have no idea when will the package delivered and the service is really not as good as DHL. You are really mixing something. I have done PCB, PCBA and components sourcing services in China for many years (I'm now running http://en.zfpcba.com/) and I really don't think that 25usd for 0.5kg package by DHL is expensive. The package material, the labor of the package & dispatch department, etc. What you should do is to check if the quality, the total price and the lead time fit your requirements. If not, fine, find another one instead of yelling others as scammers. It's impolite.

[janoc]

If not, fine, find another one instead of yelling others as scammers. It's impolite. It's libel.

Here, fixed that for you.

[ebclr]

I don't want to obligated to use DHL, I want to have the freedom to chose the deliver i want on a easy way

[Monkeh]

And they offer you a postal option.

Hey, if you know exactly what everything costs and how to run the business, why not start your own? You'll do great!

[Rbastler]

You can use whatever shipping service is available, and there are other options! So go and use those cheaper solutions, but don't complain that it'll take longer to arrive. You can even contact them to find a cheaper solution for shipping !!! Just don't be lazy.

[Kilrah]

Correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is, this guy ordered a board, forgot to choose a cheaper shipping rather than the default DHL, now he is blaming PCBWay for charging him more for shipping.

That is my understanding too.

I don't want to obligated to use DHL, I want to have the freedom to chose the deliver i want on a easy way

And you do...

Delivery
PCBWay.com offers flexible shipping methods for our customers, you may choose from one of the methods below.

1. DHL
2. EMS
3. FedEx
4. Hongkong Post

Hongkong Post is a good solution for customers who either do not have a tight schedule for the PCBs or need to save on the shipping.
It normally takes 7-20 business days to deliver the package.

5.   Air, Sea/air and Sea

You really have nobody to blame but yourself if you didn't make use of it.

[ebclr]

Show me  how you can chose any other freight other than DHL on Pcbway site please

[Kilrah]

By selecting it like on any other website? It even tells you how to proceed for unlisted options.

[Wilksey]

Whilst we are on the subject of DHL, I have always been hit with customs charges / handling charges from DHL (even on free samples, which got rejected), but very very rarely from any other i.e. FedEx, does everyone else have the same perception about DHL always charging this extra?

I am in the UK, and I usually opt for Fed Ex, it is usually 3 - 4 USD more but if you take into consideration the extra charges I am almost guaranteed to incur it seems to make sense to spend that extra in the order phase.

Just wondered if it was just me they didn't like!

[Rbastler]

I never had to pay extra for a DHL shipping. Not shipping from China or EU.

[Kilrah]

It's 100% depending on what the sender declares as value, not on the actually shipping provider.

Maybe there are things like the sender got caught undervaluing things too many times by DHL so they don't do it anymore, but still do with others...

[KE5FX]

Whilst we are on the subject of DHL, I have always been hit with customs charges / handling charges from DHL (even on free samples, which got rejected), but very very rarely from any other i.e. FedEx, does everyone else have the same perception about DHL always charging this extra?

I am in the UK, and I usually opt for Fed Ex, it is usually 3 - 4 USD more but if you take into consideration the extra charges I am almost guaranteed to incur it seems to make sense to spend that extra in the order phase.

Just wondered if it was just me they didn't like!

This happens to me in the US as well.  I've ordered a total of three FPGA boards from ZTex in Germany recently (meaning in the past year).  Nothing unusual happened after the first board was delivered, but a few weeks after the second and third boards arrived, I got an invoice in the mail from DHL for customs clearance fees. 

This is highly unusual in the US and somewhat annoying as well, even though the amounts in question weren't large.

Edit: to be clear, I don't blame ZTex for this at all.  As rx8pilot says, it doesn't pay for a small independent vendor to offer every delivery option from snail mail to Amazon drones. 

[Wilksey]

No, the declared value was the same on both packages, I think DHL are just holding packages to ransom by choice to make more money, I avoid DHL if I can, in some respect, not necessarily with PCB's, but it can negate the reason for buying overseas in the first place.

Aliexpress for example, for an extra £20-£30 I could have gotten an array of items here in the UK, but decided to grab them from Ali a bit cheaper, had I chosen DHL I would not have been any better off.  Luckily other shipping options are available.

[rx8pilot]

I don't want to obligated to use DHL, I want to have the freedom to chose the deliver i want on a easy way

My business offers one type of shipping because it is a major pain and expense to have multiple systems setup. The vast majority of customers don't care and few that do don't justify the effort of offering every option.

[Macbeth]

OP is clearly a troll. Nobody who can design a PCB is so inept they can't navigate a website, use google, realise that fast couriers cost more than sending by sea, or that businesses don't have magic fairies who package and post items at zero cost. 

[uncle_bob]

Whilst we are on the subject of DHL, I have always been hit with customs charges / handling charges from DHL (even on free samples, which got rejected), but very very rarely from any other i.e. FedEx, does everyone else have the same perception about DHL always charging this extra?

I am in the UK, and I usually opt for Fed Ex, it is usually 3 - 4 USD more but if you take into consideration the extra charges I am almost guaranteed to incur it seems to make sense to spend that extra in the order phase.

Just wondered if it was just me they didn't like!

This happens to me in the US as well.  I've ordered a total of three FPGA boards from ZTex in Germany recently (meaning in the past year).  Nothing unusual happened after the first board was delivered, but a few weeks after the second and third boards arrived, I got an invoice in the mail from DHL for customs clearance fees. 

This is highly unusual in the US and somewhat annoying as well, even though the amounts in question weren't large.

Edit: to be clear, I don't blame ZTex for this at all.  As rx8pilot says, it doesn't pay for a small independent vendor to offer every delivery option from snail mail to Amazon drones.

Hi

*Everything* I have had come in from China via the Alibaba / DHL route has had a customs charge on it. Since it's all been multi kilobuck gear, that was not a big surprise. DHL from Germany on FPGA boards ... no customs charge. 

Bob

[janoc]

Whilst we are on the subject of DHL, I have always been hit with customs charges / handling charges from DHL (even on free samples, which got rejected), but very very rarely from any other i.e. FedEx, does everyone else have the same perception about DHL always charging this extra?

It is not just you. I believe DHL charges a "processing fee" or whatever they call it for filing the actual customs paperwork for you and getting your item through customs, separately from the shipping fee (which pays only for the actual transportation). They do it rigidly for every package, even if there are finally no customs due, either due to the low value of the item or the item being exempted from customs. That fee can be sometimes more than the value of the actual item.

If you ship by regular airmail/post, you will rarely see this, because most of the items coming by post are small and thus fall under the customs exemption limit (usually something like 200 euro, depends on the country). On the other hand, if your item needs to go through customs, you will have to handle the clearance yourself, the post will not do it - that typically means a trip to the customs office, filing paperwork and paying the fee before your item is released.

Of course, if you are shipping within EU/US, you don't see this, it applies only for items coming from the outside.

I can't speak about Fedex - I have used Fedex only once and paid only the actual customs (they probably included the "paperwork" charge in the shipping fee itself already) and that was ages ago.

[Kilrah]

FedEx, DHL, UPS all do... I've got bills from all 3 on my desk right now 

But again it depends on value, there is usually a threahold in each country below which things are not taxed.  If it's below then you may or may not get a handling charge, I find it's a bit random. Maybe when they're too busy they just shove the package out and don't bother making the bill.

[ebclr]

That  "processing fee" is some countries can go far away than a hundred, without talking about any taxes, this is why regular post must be a easy option

[wraper]

That  "processing fee" is some countries can go far away than a hundred, without talking about any taxes, this is why regular post must be a easy option

If this is the problem in your country, then avoid those suppliers who do not offer shipping options suitable for you. Most of the big component and PCB prototype suppliers don't ship by post at all. But making a tread about this and calling this a scam is just ridiculous, and even more ridiculous because PCBway do offer the shipping by post. Their DHL shipping price is about the same as your beloved Elecrow offers.  BTW I don't like their annoying ad/spam policy at all.

[wraper]

That  "processing fee" is some countries can go far away than a hundred, without talking about any taxes, this is why regular post must be a easy option

Most of the big component and PCB prototype suppliers don't ship by post at all.

Mouser and DK offer USPS service. DK offers a $4.99 USPS service, while Mouser offers UPS pickup and USPS last mile delivery for $7.99 (UPS MI).

That USPS is within USA only IIRC.

[Monkeh]

That  "processing fee" is some countries can go far away than a hundred, without talking about any taxes, this is why regular post must be a easy option

Most of the big component and PCB prototype suppliers don't ship by post at all.

Mouser and DK offer USPS service. DK offers a $4.99 USPS service, while Mouser offers UPS pickup and USPS last mile delivery for $7.99 (UPS MI).

That USPS is within USA only IIRC.

And even within the US, likely to take your package on a trip to the wrong coast for the hell of it..

[uncle_bob]

That  "processing fee" is some countries can go far away than a hundred, without talking about any taxes, this is why regular post must be a easy option

Hi

Guess what ... *if* the value hits the threshold, the "regular post" will charge you a brokerage fee and the customs / taxes as well. The only thing you might find is that the post office isn't quite as rigorous about obeying the law....(as in checking the declaration information on the package).

Bob

[poorchava]

I don't think they make money on freight.

Heck, even if they did i still think they offer the best value for money when it comes to cheap chinese PCB services. I have started using them instead of Elecrow about a month ago and so far I don't see an downside.

Their pricing model (board area instead of maximum dimensions) is more convenient for me. They also seem to charge less premium for panelizing multiple designs onto one panel

Recently, I have ordered 40pcs of 99x134-ish mm panel with tab routing and otherwise standard PCB tech for $167 with DHL shipping to Poland and the total turnaround time was like 7 days or somehing (but that's just luck i think). At this point I really don't give a shit if they charge a bit more for shipping (which btw i doubt they do).

They also made 10pcs of 10x300mm PCBs for $27 with airmail shipping. And i still don't give a shit if they charge more. I'd have to pay like $50-100 anywhere else for those boards.

I'm not gonna do another 1000-th pcbway review video, but I do like them and will recommend them further.

[Chumanista]

To answer questions about quality, here is my video on this topic, complete with an in-depth analysis of the accuracy:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/pcbway-review/

[Harvs]

The irony of this thread is I learnt about PCBway from it, have now put 4 PCB runs through them which I'm impressed with.

[bitseeker]

Gotta love a good irony.

[rs20]

"There's no such thing as bad publicity"? 

[mrpackethead]

I don't think they make money on freight.

If you dont' like their DHL/Fedex pricing, you can put your own shipping account details in their system now and you can pay the freight company directly. It does'tn change the pcb pricing.

[poorchava]

The quality of the boards is perfectly adequate for pretty much anything. Obviously, you wouldn't use them for stuff like hardcore RF, life support, automotive stuff, insulation resistance meter or something, but aside from such extreme cases they are perfectly fine.

I think it's worth noting, that they seem to actually be reading the additional notes which you can add (in my case: place factory numbers on sacrificial part of the panel)

IMO if 'old crew' of chinese PCB joints (Seeed, iTead, Elecrow, Elecfreaks and whoever else) has to adjust their offerings or they're gonna loose A LOT of customers. Obviously, all of them have something special they also do, which PCBWay doesn't (iTead sells it's own hobby boards, Seed offers some proven PCBA (Dangerous Prototypes use them AFAIK), Elecrow still has the cheapest possible 4-layer service at $23.9 + S&H while PCBWAY starts at $65 + S&H).

[sergioag]

I started using them a few months ago. So far, I've done about 4 orders with them, each one with increased complexity, though all 2 layers only, and without any issues.

I can only compare to Seed, which I used before. The copper layers is just as fine as Seed. In the solder mask, they appear to have some kind of issue with cleaning, as I always find some "fibers". Nothing serious, but it shows. As for the silkscreen, Seed is definitively superior on this one, though Pcbway is more than adequate for me.

In case you were wondering, I was a happy customer from Seed. I only stopped using them because they repeatedly sent my order using Fedex instead of DHL as I had selected (DHL doesn't charge me any clearance fees, while Fedex charges about $90 per shipment, so it was hitting me hard). Even further, they told that "DHL doesn't ship to your country", even though they had shipped to me using DHL. Pure bullshit.

At least PCBway ships with DHL, which is fine for me. I would prefer to save a few bucks with Hong Kong Post or similar, but our local post office is unpredictable: it can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 4 months. I cannot afford that.

[mrpackethead]

Funny, i expressly want them to ship with FEDEX over DHL, because we get them in 2 days versus 7.. it really depends where in teh world you are!

[wraper]

From the serious issues I found, they sometimes left fingerprints on the solder mask. Likely at the moment when it wasn't hardened yet. Otherwise they had been better quality than elecrow in any other way.

[technotronix]

I don't think they are scammers. I always had a good experience with them.

[sergioag]

Funny, i expressly want them to ship with FEDEX over DHL, because we get them in 2 days versus 7.. it really depends where in teh world you are!

Exactly! Here both of them deliver in about the same time. But for small packages (up to $200), DHL charges you nothing, while Fedex charges $90. I'm not talking about taxes (up to $200 we pay no taxes), but only brokerage fees.

[rx8pilot]

Planning my first test order with PCBway for some prototypes. No major rush and no special technical specifications. Let's see how it goes.

[wraper]

Planning my first test order with PCBway for some prototypes. No major rush and no special technical specifications. Let's see how it goes.

Better try pcbwin, completely different level of quality and a bit cheaper.

[mrpackethead]

Planning my first test order with PCBway for some prototypes. No major rush and no special technical specifications. Let's see how it goes.

Better try pcbwin, completely different level of quality and a bit cheaper.

My experience with pcbwin was terrible, but your right a completey differnet level of quality. - It was terrible.

[LukeW]

10x boards, 10cmx10cm or slightly smaller, 2-layer, silkscreened, soldermasked, HASL, 6/6 rules.

$1 USD per board. About AUD$35 for the shipping. All up AUD$50, total, including shipping.
Yes, the shipping does seem disproportionate, but this is for a small purchase of boards, and I want it done rapidly.
I think it's fair.

Boards in my hands 6 days after designing them. Boards of acceptable quality, functional as expected, fabricated as designed.
That's my experience with PCBWay.

So, do you know of any alternatives that can do the same job as this "scam" as you put it, cheaper, and just as fast? I'd like to hear what you recommend.

[sainter]

Wanted to ask someone that sent them orders in panels. They charge per panel, without accounting pcb count in a panel ? or do they add an additional fee for v-scoring or tab-routing ? Just had an idea to order some SMD adapter boards, and the price sound good.

[wraper]

Planning my first test order with PCBway for some prototypes. No major rush and no special technical specifications. Let's see how it goes.

Better try pcbwin, completely different level of quality and a bit cheaper.

My experience with pcbwin was terrible, but your right a completey differnet level of quality. - It was terrible.

Dunno, I didn't see shite like fingerprints on the soldermask, or heavily knife "edited" tracks which BTW were shorted anyway in one occasion (instead of marking bad board) unlike PCBway. Can you share what particularly was bad, and was it really PCBwin because they opened a website very recently? https://www.eevblog.com/forum/manufacture/anyone-tried-pcbwin/msg1045424/#msg1045424

[mrpackethead]

If i remember correctly the boards i had made, had really bad etching, it looked like it was overetched to me.

i've had a lot of boards from pcbway. 1000's and i've had very little issues with them.. 

[julian1]

This video, covers a PCBWay 4 layer board with controlled impedance traces and some other fancy stuff. I thought the fabrication was pretty impressive for the price,

https://youtu.be/c8_JnJcHIVg?t=45s

[TheRevva]

Based upon a prior post in this thread made by free-electron (who is someone with a metric TON of experience and is therefore one of the few that I feel I can genuinely TRUST), I placed my PCB order with PCBWay for 125 * PCBs
With this being my first ever 'offshore' order for PCBs, I made sure it was pretty straightforward for PCBWay - for example, my design uses somewhat lethargic 50/50 mil design rules!
The PCBs are 400*27.94mm and are populated purely with through-hole parts - Not a single SMD in sight!

Basically, they're simple LED segments for fairly large 7-segment displays that we use as the time / speed displays at my local drag strip - They need to be fairly large given that much pf the viewing audience is about 1/4 mile away!
The original ones that were purchased in 2004 before I became involved have seriously suffered from the ravages of humidity and what I consider to be exceedingly poor PCB design
They were single sided PCBs with ridiculously thin (6mil?) bare copper tracks devoid of any solder mask and they SHOULD have been given a nice laquer coating!
(The supposedly sealed enclosures they reside in bear a striking resemble a colander which doesn't help much... LOL)
Since this 'upgrade' is being 'funded' by poor old me, keeping the total costs to a bare minimum is a STRONG driving force

I'm VERY encouraged by the PCBs I've received
- The drill registration looks excellent (unlike some I've seen pix of in this forum)
- I ordered them with a black solder mask which didn't cost $0.01 extra (I know how Dave 'dislikes' black given his past, but it was quite a logical choice for an optical PCB with 56 ultra-bright LEDs)
- The amount I paid was, by far, cheaper than anyone else I could find (which, given the quality of boards I've received, is VERY comforting)
- Many PCB fabs don't (or didn't at the time) allow such a long (400mm) board in their online quoting system
- I ordered 125, but they supplied the 'overage' which gave me an additional 9 boards - BONUS!

If anyone wants to see some pix, I'll see what I can do on a phone camera (but don't expect much...  Did I not mention the black solder mask? LOL)

My next task is to locate a 'small army' of volunteers down at the dragway to help with hand-populating all these boards and soldering 16375 points... <I _DID_ mention I am keeping costs down right? Grins>

I'll definitely be using PCBWay again for my next little project which will be a far better 'test' of their capabilities as it involves a 144pin TQFP, a small army of 0603s and a handful of through hole stuff using 6/6 design rules

In summary, free-electron wasn't joking when he stated their quality is great.
Thanx for pointing me in a good direction

[DerekG]

I have used PCBWAY, both for prototypes & for production quantity (1000 circuits).

I only had one small problem which PCBWAY rectified within 8 days. The production boards were panelised with 2 boards per panel (V groove to separate them).

The solder paste stencil that was originally supplied was for a single circuit only. I took a picture & sent it to PCBWAY & a correct 2 up solder paste stencil arrived 8 days later at no further cost to ourselves.

So it appears to me that if they make a mistake, they are quite willing to fix it quickly at their expense.

[Chumanista]

@TheRevva: Wouldn't it make sense to use SMD diodes and find some place with a pick&place to rent cheap?
Soldering this amount of LEDs by hand seems like a nightmare.

[Macbeth]

@TheRevva: Wouldn't it make sense to use SMD diodes and find some place with a pick&place to rent cheap?
Soldering this amount of LEDs by hand seems like a nightmare.

He did say he has volunteers, it's much easier for an amateur to solder through hole than SMD. Hell, it could even be "fun" !

[Roy]

I'm in the US. I've used Seeed Fusion through https://www.seeedstudio.com/fusion_pcb.html three times for the $9.9 qty 10 deal for two-layer boards, the shipping cost is $11 using EU POST

[rx8pilot]

Just placed an order for a design that is 5 different small designs that will be separated after placement. They charged extra for the multi-design layout but it is still less than half the cost of the lowest cost I could find in the USA.

This is my first order to a non-USA based fab house. If it works well - I have to wonder how the USA companies are coping with this extraordinary disparity in pricing. Is my design going to be sold or otherwise distributed? Is the quality going to match what I have been getting in the USA?

First week of Jan, I guess I will know.

[bitseeker]

Is my design going to be sold or otherwise distributed?
...
First week of Jan, I guess I will know.

That is a very good question. I'd be interested to hear what happens after some time has transpired.

[Bud]

I was ok with the quality of their boards but found some white residue stuck in the vias, which seemed to be leftovers from the washing process or something. It can only be seen when inspecting the board under the microscope but still the cleaning process could be better.

[ebclr]

US Quality is probably higher, but quality / price ratio will be a total China advantage

[rx8pilot]

That is a very good question. I'd be interested to hear what happens after some time has transpired.

This is for a product with a number of PCB's, and this is the least worrisome. Mainly interface boards and an LCD display. Maybe for the more proprietary boards, I should remove the company name, part number or any other marks that will identify it's final destination and usage. Possibly only giving one company, one design at a time. Using a different vendor for each PCB? Overkill or self-preservation? Not sure how much trust I should put into this. If my designs get into the wrong hands, the cost savings will be wiped out instantly.

[helius]

I don't think it's overkill at all. Considering the possible economic value, I'd be surprised if major hacking groups or state actors haven't placed persistent malware in all of the PCB manufacturers already, and that goes for the US and Europe not only China. If you want design security you need to stay in-house or remain as obscure as possible.

[bitseeker]

That is a very good question. I'd be interested to hear what happens after some time has transpired.

This is for a product with a number of PCB's, and this is the least worrisome. Mainly interface boards and an LCD display. Maybe for the more proprietary boards, I should remove the company name, part number or any other marks that will identify it's final destination and usage. Possibly only giving one company, one design at a time. Using a different vendor for each PCB? Overkill or self-preservation? Not sure how much trust I should put into this. If my designs get into the wrong hands, the cost savings will be wiped out instantly.

That would pretty much be my approach. If I kept the company name on it, I might assign a different part number when sending to different PCB house.

I don't think it's overkill for proprietary designs. Unless you're doing open source, it's good to be a bit paranoid.

[mrpackethead]

If you leave your design in the USA, the russians will get it.

[rx8pilot]

I received my first PCBway order yesterday. It looks reasonable so far.

It is a relatively simple design: 4 layer FR4, 8/8, 1oz, 10mil holes, green mask, irregular routing. The holes are precise and the registration of copper to hole and copper to mask are reasonable. The silk is legible but not amazing. In general, I don't really care about the silk being an art project as long as it is legible.

The order was an experiment to see how they do. So far (before assembly) it looks good. The schedule was met - shipped in about 5 days, arrived 3 days later. The cost was ~60% less than a USA based option. After I assemble and test, I will know for sure - but the outer layers look good with 8/8 trace space. Assuming all goes well electrically, I will decide if it seems safe enough to send my more critical designs with tougher features and expensive IP. I am not terribly surprised that they can make PCB's, but I am definitely worried about my designs making the rounds. It would not be too challenging for anyone to figure out what this is used for, copy my firmware and slash the cost.

I am far too small to implement a security scheme to outwit copycats.

[mrpackethead]

I received my first PCBway order yesterday. It looks reasonable so far.

It is a relatively simple design: 4 layer FR4, 8/8, 1oz, 10mil holes, green mask, irregular routing. The holes are precise and the registration of copper to hole and copper to mask are reasonable. The silk is legible but not amazing. In general, I don't really care about the silk being an art project as long as it is legible.

The order was an experiment to see how they do. So far (before assembly) it looks good. The schedule was met - shipped in about 5 days, arrived 3 days later. The cost was ~60% less than a USA based option. After I assemble and test, I will know for sure - but the outer layers look good with 8/8 trace space. Assuming all goes well electrically, I will decide if it seems safe enough to send my more critical designs with tougher features and expensive IP. I am not terribly surprised that they can make PCB's, but I am definitely worried about my designs making the rounds. It would not be too challenging for anyone to figure out what this is used for, copy my firmware and slash the cost.

I am far too small to implement a security scheme to outwit copycats.

PCBway is way too busy to be reverse engineering pcbs.

[wraper]

PCBway is way too busy to be reverse engineering pcbs.

Some of the employees might be not that busy or honest. Although I won't be too much concerned about bare PCBs. Full assembly certainly would be a valid concern.

[Macbeth]

PCBway is way too busy to be reverse engineering pcbs.

Some of the employees might be not that busy or honest. Although I won't be too much concerned about bare PCBs. Full assembly certainly would be a valid concern.

Perhaps get your PCBs made in Shenzhen and your assembly in Taiwan, or vice versa and then finally the international despatch from Hong Kong? (Maybe the secure firmware flashing too)

[mrpackethead]

PCBway is way too busy to be reverse engineering pcbs.

Some of the employees might be not that busy or honest. Although I won't be too much concerned about bare PCBs. Full assembly certainly would be a valid concern.

ANd then you sell your product.  Complete, functioning with all the bits..   If I wanted to copy it..  I'd buy a finsihed one. SO much easier. I'd know what its function was i could make some educated guess's about how it works...
Trust me if they were going to have copied your idea, they would have done it by now.,

[kcbanner]

I placed my order on the 23rd and have my boards in hand today. They shipped on the 26th via DHL. Show me a registered air parcel that gets to my door (Canada) in 3 days and I'll happily use it.

I'm extremely pleased with how fast I got my boards.

I had to pay duty and higher shipping costs but if you are trying to argue on timing then there really isn't much to be said.

[kiran_shrestha]

I am also going to defend... cos I have made tons of PCB from PCBWay, and I think there service and response are very great, but I admit their silkscreen is not much fine.

[PeterL]

I'm sorry but I think this thread doesn't deserve to be kept alive.

The title suggest that there is something wrong with PCBWay, but no arguments are given to support this.
Instead there is just a shameless plug of elecrow.

And the high freight costs is no argument if you ask me. These are things you can see and compare upfront, so I see no reason why people should be warned about this.

And only if you read the thread you'll find out that that the general opinion is that people are actually happy with PCBWay.
But in the mean time there is this thread that keeps coming up in the top of the thread list saying "Avoid PCBWay"

So I would suggest to not reply to this thread any more, unless you have a real reason to indeed avoid PCBWay.
Or maybe put a lock on it..

[mrpackethead]

In a strange kind of way, this is the best advertising that PCBWay could have ever hoped for.

BTW, i'm a very happy customer.

[Koen]

Did anyone notice a recent improvement in soldermask accuracy ? I ordered boards a few weeks ago (green) and they were much better than all those I received before (black). I do not know if it is due to the colour difference or an overall improvement of their work.

Thank you, Koen

[mrpackethead]

Did anyone notice a recent improvement in soldermask accuracy ? I ordered boards a few weeks ago (green) and they were much better than all those I received before (black). I do not know if it is due to the colour difference or an overall improvement of their work.

Thank you, Koen

They have apparently recently done some major plant upgrades

[Alex Eisenhut]

Did anyone notice a recent improvement in soldermask accuracy ? I ordered boards a few weeks ago (green) and they were much better than all those I received before (black). I do not know if it is due to the colour difference or an overall improvement of their work.

Thank you, Koen

They have apparently recently done some major plant upgrades

Can they do Bezier rivets? If not, they are dismissed. Out of hand.

[Bud]

Actually solder mask was worse on the boards i received in December compare to earlier boards from a few months back.

[timb]

Did anyone notice a recent improvement in soldermask accuracy ? I ordered boards a few weeks ago (green) and they were much better than all those I received before (black). I do not know if it is due to the colour difference or an overall improvement of their work.

Thank you, Koen

They have apparently recently done some major plant upgrades

Can they do Bezier rivets? If not, they are dismissed. Out of hand.

You're nom-sequonor is diss-missed!

[mrpackethead]

No.   No. No ahh

[TheDefpom]

I used them, was very happy with the service, had them in my hand within a week.

However, a couple of weeks later they asked me to pay an extra US$50 shipping, because dhl charged them more, I ignored it, as I chose that option based on the prices stated on their site.

[rx8pilot]

I have recently sent 3 separate designs to PCBway. 2 of them are 4 layer, 6/6, with .2mm holes and ENIG finish. Not exotic at all. Great price, fast fabrication, reasonable shipping with DHL to USA. The quality is reasonable, but not as good as Sunstone or RushPCB here in the US. The routing a little rough, soldermask alignment not amazing - but nothing that would stop them from working.

The third one was a simple 2 layer interface PCB that needed to be panelized. I had them do the panel layout and they made wise choices with no changes needed. I just sent 2 additional designs to them today. One of them is a very small PCB that will be embedded in a cable assembly - the smallest PCB I have ever done. Curious if that will cause any issues. 21mm x 8mm.

Anyway - the experience has been positive so far. The website is easy to use.

[digsys]

Yup, pretty much similar experiences. I normally do 2oz, it's a bigger jump in price, but still very good value. Just sent off 4 designs as well.
I have some 4oz stuff to do, and the price jump is really big, but again, well under what he had locally (OZ). I wonder if they in fact do the 4oz themselves or
have an exchange deal with someone else? I'd guess the marked price differences from 1oz to 4oz is purely QTY produced.
The one good thing about local was, the difference was bugger all, but then our labour / overheads would make it insignificant. Any other reasons?

[mrpackethead]

ll PCB that will be embedded in a cable assembly - the smallest PCB I have ever done. Curious if that will cause any issues. 21mm x 8mm.

They make a board for me that is 6x9mm and its been just fine.

[bitseeker]

The was this thread has been going, I'm going to have to try PCBWay. 

[Buriedcode]

Worth it, but expect extra charges to be added after it has been shipped if you go DHL.  It's an unpleasant surprise but as others have said, even when you include this in the total price - still works out very cheap for quality boards shipped fast.

I'm just wondering the best way to get 1/2 piece of several different designs made without being stung.

[digsys]

I'm just wondering the best way to get 1/2 piece of several different designs made without being stung.

In my case - especially if it is only 1oz, the most expensive part is the freight, so I do several 100mm x 100mm panels, and vgrove or cut them up myself.
Just have to check the MIN VGrove limits. Putting 2+ designs on that 100x100 costs bugger all extra.

[urosg]

I used PCBway a couple of times now and for low power designs they are ok but in one application where I guess we pushed the design a little too much to the limit the inrush current burned out the traces of the PCBWay boards where as the previous boards that were made by a manufacturer in EU survived the installation.

I am now using them for non critical prototyping stuff only.

[Buriedcode]

I'm just wondering the best way to get 1/2 piece of several different designs made without being stung.

In my case - especially if it is only 1oz, the most expensive part is the freight, so I do several 100mm x 100mm panels, and vgrove or cut them up myself.
Just have to check the MIN VGrove limits. Putting 2+ designs on that 100x100 costs bugger all extra.

Cheers!  For 'hobby' projects I rarely have a need for more than two of one design, and lots of small adapters for prototyping.  They're also often rather small, so if I can get say 5 bigger designs and lots of smaller ones for <£60 I'm laughing. I still make the occasional DIY board if its simple and small enough, but dear god I hate it.

[rx8pilot]

My tiny little PCB's arrived today. First time attempting 25mil font size but it is easily readable. Strange shape PCB but it turned out ok.

Shipped in 3 days I believe.

[westfw]

FWIW, I sent a 10x10cm PCB to PCBWay on 11-Jan-2017.  They charged $10 for the PCBs (several of the Chinese sites have recently lowered their prices for larger boards, or have "specials" - I'm not complaining!) (it's especially nice to have the max "free EAGLE" PCB come in at the minimum price!)    They charged $21 for shipping, shipped using DHL, and I had the boards in my hand on 16-Jan-2017.   They're lovely and work fine (except for my own mistakes), and I was very impressed with the turnaround time; I was expecting the old 2-4 weeks...  (Oh: they let me use $2 from a $5 "new customer" coupon as well!)

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/58843278@N00/31450347183/in/album-72157622049680333/

In contrast, I sent two smaller boards (one 5x5, one 5x10) to Seeed on 16-feb-2017.  The PCBs were $10 each, and they charged $15.30 for shipping.  They claim to have shipped on 24-feb, they used the normal "postal service",  and I'm still waiting for them.  (This is about what I expect, and I'm not complaining.  But PCBWay was a lot more impressive - I had boards in my hand in less time than Seeed took to make them.)

I consider both shipping charges to be "reasonable."  I'm pretty sure that they're in-line or better than what it would cost me to ship in the other direction.   One "problem" is that the low-price "Hong Kong Post" package has a weight limit (100g?), and it doesn't take much FR4 to exceed that limit and get you into the realm of higher prices.  My 10x10 PCBs are about 30g each.  (I guess this might be a reason to order "less than the cheapest amount" (5 vs 10) of a PCB?  I haven't tried that yet.)  (Hmm.  Itead charged me $3.90 to ship 10 5x5 boards, back in 2013.)

So I've used Dorkbot (2010!), Itead, OSHPark (several small boards), PCBWay, and now Seeed for one board each, and I've been happy with all of them.  OSHPark is probably my favorite, because three boards is usually plenty, and a lot of things I want to do with PCBs are very small, but they get very expensive when your boards get bigger :-(  I haven't used any of them "a lot."  Yet.
I intentionally design my PCBs very conservatively, though (well, there were those SiLego GP12 breakouts...  Small size, small risk!)  It's nice to be rewarded for such conservative practices, by being able to pay lower prices.   Now if only I could find someone really cheap to do those 30cm PCBs with the 5mm design rules (for the Wimshurst, you know!)  :-)

[mrpackethead]

its got better.. try pcbways brother company allpcb. You can get the same boards even cheaper.  At this rate in 2019, they will be giving us money to take their pcbs.

[cgroen]

Thanks for the headsup on PCBWay, we are just about to order 3000 pcs of a simple board (1 layer, 0.4 mm thick) for a special purpose
I'm a little excited to see how this goes, the price is for sure alright!!
Guess the title of the thread has become a magnet for new customers 

[digsys]

Had another few 100 pcbs delivered today. All good, except still annoyed with their communication skills (not the first time)
One of the gerbers I sent had a badly misplaced solder mask section. They picked it up immediately, sent back pictures, with circles and arrows of the "suspect" area,
and a query. Fixed the error, and sent back the correction via "reply to", which they either didn't get, or as once before, it got lost in their obviously huge email volume.
There's no way to verify they received the update, and I tried explaining the issue, but they didn't understand. Once I sent back as a new job update, and that got lost
as well. I'm sure they'll redo them if I ask, but it's a waste. I'll see if I can get an explanation at least.

[nikess]

Have used them for several small runs (5-100) PCB's and could deal with the communications gaps but the last order was also the last straw. Decide to use the wire transfer option vs. PayPal, big mistake, sent the wire on June 2, received confirmation from our bank, as of today, July 5th, nothing. They keep telling me it hasn't shown up in their account although our bank confirms it was received by their bank. I'm not sure if they are capable of picking up a phone and calling their bank to ask why they can't have their money? Instead of calling their bank, they want our company to pull the wire transfer back and use PayPal. I would not recommend using this company, their customer service is heavy on apathy and short on action.

[KE5FX]

I recently sent Allpcb a simple 4-layer board with 6/6 feature sizes as a trial run:



I ordered 5 boards at $16 ea, and they sent 7.  Sunstone quoted the same order at $55 each.   

Allpcb's FR-4 material isn't quite as nice to work with as Sunstone's.  It feels somewhat flakier, for want of a more technical term.  But it's perfectly functional, no complaints on tolerances.  The $25 stencil I ordered with these boards was also very nicely done.  I can't see using domestic manufacturers for prototyping in the future, given the massive price difference and reasonable quality.   

The next board I need to spin will be a lot more challenging, so we'll see if the quality holds up...

[KE5FX]

Depending on size. So far OSHPark is still hard to beat at small sizes.

Aren't they just an aggregator for offshore builds?  That used to be the case when they were called BatchPCB.com.

PCBWay offers high Tg boards at a premium.

This simple PCB actually does need another test spin, so maybe I'll try PCBWay just for the sake of comparison.

[rs20]

The next board I need to spin will be a lot more challenging, so we'll see if the quality holds up...

PCBWay offers high Tg boards at a premium.

I'm confused, did KE5FX mention anything about high-temperature service? Or is there an implication here that high Tg boards have better tolerancing or something else beyond the higher service temperature rating?

I'm not criticizing to be clear, just trying to figure out what I'm missing here.

[digsys]

Anyone know if any of these if any of these manufacturers actually have 4oz capability IN-HOUSE !!? I'm assuming PCBWay, plus a couple others I used once, send it to other
manufacturer. I base this on - much longer lead times .. big jump in price ( 1>2oz, 2>3oz are fine) .. NO tracking at all etc. It's enough of a concern to keep a careful eye out on ONE
manufacturer .. knowing that it is being handed around gives me the heebie-jeebies :-)

[floobydust]

I've had good quality from PCBway, the result was made by King Board (4-layer) and very good 2oz copper. Tough laminate, withstood rework.
OSH Park I have not had good luck with, IPA attacks their solder mask and hole sizes get rounded down too much, parts don't fit.

I do not trust the copper thickness coming from low cost Asian PCB houses because skimping there means your PCB heats up and burns.
UPS manufacturer APC actually has a small PCB trace strip with testpoints to measure resistance and confirm copper thickness, right on their products.

Are they an IPC shop, ISO-9001 quality system? No.

[digsys]

  ... IPA attacks their solder mask ...

I have 5 different solvents / cleaners and are constantly trying them all to find one that doesn't react with the solder mask, for each suppler, and sometimes each batch.
I bet my new 4oz will be different again.

... I do not trust the copper thickness coming from low cost Asian PCB houses  .... a small PCB trace strip with testpoints to measure resistance and
confirm copper thickness, right on their products .... 

As I've noted recently, I usually always add my own test strips to each bact. 50-200th wide, 1-2" long. Then run test currents through and check voltage drop. It has to be done.

[nardev]

I've had good quality from PCBway, the result was made by King Board (4-layer) and very good 2oz copper. Tough laminate, withstood rework.
OSH Park I have not had good luck with, IPA attacks their solder mask and hole sizes get rounded down too much, parts don't fit.

I do not trust the copper thickness coming from low cost Asian PCB houses because skimping there means your PCB heats up and burns.
UPS manufacturer APC actually has a small PCB trace strip with testpoints to measure resistance and confirm copper thickness, right on their products.

Are they an IPC shop, ISO-9001 quality system? No.

Sorry but OSH park is exactly what they say... it's not  something you would choose for high quantity ... and it's more for hobbyists...

[digsys]

Well, I got my first 4oz back a few weeks ago, and the thermal imager (at 20A) tell me they are FINE !! Very little difference, if any, to 5x more expensive local PCBs.
If all these PCB makers were so bad, there'd be several MILLION recalls EVERY WEEK !! Haven't heard anything like that on www Use the numbers.
And yes, originally, I was slightly concerned, so I ran destructive and analytical tests. Guess what, the copper wasn't reclaimed coke cans, or the mask cut with
bleach to make it cheaper. Shock.
So, a solder mask is slightly off, so some pads are drilled 0.1 thou off center, so the silk screen is a little fuzzy ... I can't sell my products because that's not professional?
Geez, I've had just as many issues (or worse) with local, very expensive, PCB manufacturers over many years. So you may get a few duds. That's why we do QC !!
And even IF I had a 200% failure rate, I'm still way in front. YMMV

[asmi]

I would like to share my own experience with PCBWay. Recently ordered 10 4-layer board 92x80 mm, 0.15/0.15 mm trace/spacing (yes they are metric!), 0.3 mm drill, ENIG. The board had several 1.0 mm pitch BGAs. The price was $72 + shipping. Received 11 boards (as is typical of them). The only odd requirement they told me during audit was that trace spacing under BGAs on the top layer has to be at least 0.25 mm. Here are boards:

Silkscreen is a bit choppy in few places, but that's OK with me as I only needed it to aid manual assembly.

Here is that board assembled (well - almost assembled - I didn't solder power supply-related components as this was my first ever 4-layer board with BGA parts on it so I wanted to limit financial losses in case I screwed something up, I powered it from separate power supply which is using same components):

I didn't bother to read datasheet on JTAG connector so I didn't know that it's not temperature-resistant, which is why it partially melted, but everything else soldered perfectly - including BGA balls (most of them as I didn't break out every single one of them due to running out of routing space).
The boards works like sharm! And I'm double-happy since I've managed not to screw up layout this time around

Allpcb recently announced a new service with very attractive prices for 4 and 6 layer boards, but for some reason they charge extra fees for each BGA part, so PCBWay ended up cheaper for this design. Maybe that will change for 6-layer boards as PCBWay's pricing is very high (especially if you need process finer that "default" 0.15/0.15/0.3 mm, which is what I will need for 0.8 mm pitch BGAs).

[gagrdonik]

They make a Hugh profit on freight,

I changed to http://www.elecrow.com/ and is more fair , with real freight price,  good quality and better price than pcbway.

I think you are right