DEX eval by free_electron

[logic10]

Iliya

Attach video screen capture; it's in slow motion, but its shows the problem.

[IanJ]

ok. holding scrollwheel down and dragging moves viewport but that is awkward ...

Ahh, thats the way I like it (per EaglePCB), and AutoCad standard (10 million users) is the same which I use daily..........but I share your pain, WHY WHY WHY don't all these UI designers not give the option to fully define or at least define against a bunch of well known UI cad standards. Grrrr!

Ian.

[Iliya]

Iliya, from the feedback of seasoned PCB CAD users, it seems that there is a genuine need for an option, at least, for a split database for symbols and footprints. Is your reluctance to implement it due to difficulties with software modifications or a conviction that a change is unnecessary?

The problem is not software modification it is I just don’t see the point.

The relational database will also allow version control.

GIT ... all other version control systems are obsolete. DEX I cutting edge, so should be its VCS. Please don't waste time on any other VCS.  ... of course GIT is so cool that it can be used stand alone with anything you want to VC but having it built in would be nice. I've already submitted a feature request.

I installed GIT. Now in England GIT is an insult, often one says stupid GIT.
For the life of me I cannot get it started. I can't get past create branch. It is insisting on a revision expression. I did a Google search on create branch and it gets worse....
To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

So, I am sad to say that GIT is a no-go.

[codeboy2k]

RE: context sensitive floating dialog:

First off, I think that's a great feature! well done!

However, it surprises the user:

....If you close the floating dialog using the close button at the top right of the dialog then the dialog will not appear again.

in general, it's bad UI design to have hidden features like this, it's what makes everyone frustrated when they use a new package that has hidden double clicks, long presses, hidden side-effects, etc..

I'm not a DEX user, so I am only offering my opinion on this PARTICULAR user interface choice.

When the box pops up, and I don't want to see it, I'm naturally going to close it.  If it never comes back again, then I'm left wondering why, and I have to dig through a manual or a blog post or forum post to find out how to bring it back when I really do think it will be helpful to me. When I can't figure it out, then it is a cause of much frustration.

Instead, a better choice would be a checkbox at the bottom, explicitly saying:

    [ x ] don't show the mini-properties window again
           (right click on the viewport to bring it back)

If I don't check it, then the property dialog will come back again next time after I close it, and I have to explicitly tell it not to come back again.  Explicit action, vs hidden or embedded actions is always better for the user.  Less "WTF" is always better.  Principle of least surprise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

When two elements of an interface conflict, or are ambiguous, the behavior should be that which will least surprise the user; in particular a programmer should try to think of the behavior that will least surprise someone who uses the program, rather than that behavior that is natural from knowing the inner workings of the program


The X is the window close button. It should close the dialog, but it should not also do extra disabling things. That's the WTF moment.

I've been watching this thread and reading everything, DEX looks well done. Good job!

[Monkeh]

For the life of me I cannot get it started. I can't get past create branch. It is insisting on a revision expression. I did a Google search on create branch and it gets worse....
To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

No shit? You say that like it's a bad thing..

It was written to manage development for the Linux kernel. It is immensely powerful but does require a lot of learning.

A branch requires a revision to begin from. Not that difficult an idea.

[Iliya]

Iliya

Attach video screen capture; it's in slow motion, but its shows the problem.

See attached.

The reason why you don't see orthogonal wires is when the autorouter can't find a route. e.g. if the mouse target in inside a graphic object.

[Iliya]

For the life of me I cannot get it started. I can't get past create branch. It is insisting on a revision expression. I did a Google search on create branch and it gets worse....
To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

No shit? You say that like it's a bad thing..

It was written to manage development for the Linux kernel. It is immensely powerful but does require a lot of learning.

A branch requires a revision to begin from. Not that difficult an idea.

As you say it does require a lot of learning and that is possibly the problem. There is a 456 page book available on Amazon, but engineers don't want to spend the time having to read a book on how to use a revision control system. I'm sure it was great for UNIX development, but for developing PCBs perhaps it's a bit too much. KISS comes to mind.  I think users want revision control to be as easy as possible and integrated. It is easy to make a program complicated to use but is a devil to make a program simple to use.
I'm interested in a very easy-to-use parts database and revision control even if it is difficult to develop.

I use Microsoft team foundation server with visual studio and it's easy. I also incorporate scrum development with the source code control system and project cycle planning. I do not call them sprints because using agile development techniques you try and not exhaust the development team by setting exhausting goals. Sprinting is an anaerobic activity and you can't do it for long.

[Iliya]

Agile PCB Development

Does anybody use any agile techniques for developing printed circuit boards?

[Iliya]

RE: context sensitive floating dialog:

First off, I think that's a great feature! well done!

However, it surprises the user:

....If you close the floating dialog using the close button at the top right of the dialog then the dialog will not appear again.

in general, it's bad UI design to have hidden features like this, it's what makes everyone frustrated when they use a new package that has hidden double clicks, long presses, hidden side-effects, etc..

I'm not a DEX user, so I am only offering my opinion on this PARTICULAR user interface choice.

When the box pops up, and I don't want to see it, I'm naturally going to close it.  If it never comes back again, then I'm left wondering why, and I have to dig through a manual or a blog post or forum post to find out how to bring it back when I really do think it will be helpful to me. When I can't figure it out, then it is a cause of much frustration.

Instead, a better choice would be a checkbox at the bottom, explicitly saying:

    [ x ] don't show the mini-properties window again
           (right click on the viewport to bring it back)

If I don't check it, then the property dialog will come back again next time after I close it, and I have to explicitly tell it not to come back again.  Explicit action, vs hidden or embedded actions is always better for the user.  Less "WTF" is always better.  Principle of least surprise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment

When two elements of an interface conflict, or are ambiguous, the behavior should be that which will least surprise the user; in particular a programmer should try to think of the behavior that will least surprise someone who uses the program, rather than that behavior that is natural from knowing the inner workings of the program


The X is the window close button. It should close the dialog, but it should not also do extra disabling things. That's the WTF moment.

I've been watching this thread and reading everything, DEX looks well done. Good job!

I've added a prompt and also put a large check button in the Panels menu. Thanks for prodding me  I became lazy  The new version is uploaded. Now that's Agile development. (I call it a micro-cycle).

P.S. There have been 83 fixes, feature changes this month. (day 27). That work at over 1000 a year.

[Iliya]

ok. holding scrollwheel down and dragging moves viewport but that is awkward ...

Ahh, thats the way I like it (per EaglePCB), and AutoCad standard (10 million users) is the same which I use daily..........but I share your pain, WHY WHY WHY don't all these UI designers not give the option to fully define or at least define against a bunch of well known UI cad standards. Grrrr!

Ian.

I have been using the middle button/wheel for panning/zoom in my software since 1998 when Microsoft gave me a mouse with wheel at Siggraph.  It's so easy, fast and natural. - well for me it is Should have patented it; well Apple patented rounded corners on mobile phones! 

[free_electron]

Scrollwheels : the problem with windows is that it does not FORCE consistency.

some programs use scroll for pan up down. others use it for zoom in out.
then there is modifiers : Alt scroll is pan left right , ctrl scroll is pan up/down.

So the problem starts when you use 5 programs and they all have different behavior. or , when you have 4 out of the five that do it the same , and on that is complete different. That rubs.

The same goes for using the scroll wheel as button'3'.  Or having a program that hides very useful menus under buttons 4 and 5 , which standard mice , or laptop touchpads, don't even have.

It is all about ergonomics. Microsoft has a document describing what is supposed to be the 'norm'. Most programs follow that.

The same goes for grouping functionality that belongs together. In DEX things are a bit scattered. this bit sits in a panel there , that bit sits in a panel here. While they would be better off sitting together. And there is duplication ( remember the x/y positioning that didn't work in one panel ? why does that need to sit in two panels to begin with ?

[mstevens]

I installed GIT. Now in England GIT is an insult, often one says stupid GIT.
For the life of me I cannot get it started. I can't get past create branch. It is insisting on a revision expression. I did a Google search on create branch and it gets worse....
To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

So, I am sad to say that GIT is a no-go.

You can get the gist of it from the fist few videos of this MVA course  ... http://www.microsoftvirtualacademy.com/training-courses/using-git-with-visual-studio-2013-jump-start

GIT really is worth the effort to learn. I did not believe all they hype about it until I took the time.  I went through the above MVA and then some other stuff.  If you do so like I did you would wonder why any one would use anything else.

Ilija, GIT is the DEX of version control. There were the tried and true version control methodologies then Linus T. decided to question them... He thus came up with GIT.  GIT really does throw away all of the old outdated paradigms of VC. I guess I'll tell you as you have told others about DEX, you can't really knock it until you try it.  I would bet that after learning it, it would become your VCS for DEX and other software development. 

I can tell you for sure that it seems to be they way the Microsoft is pushing developers these days. It is highly integrated into Visual Studio now, particularly VS 2013, and VS 2015 ctp5 and ctp6 which is what I use.

Wanted to add a link to Linus T. speaking on the subject.



Worth watching.

[tautech]

I've added a prompt and also put a large check button in the Panels menu. Thanks for prodding me  I became lazy  The new version is uploaded. Now that's Agile development. (I call it a micro-cycle).

P.S. There have been 83 fixes, feature changes this month. (day 27). That work at over 1000 a year.

This is truly a staggering effort. 
Keep up the good work. 

Our sincere thanks for your on-going engagement with the EEVblog community.
(speed bumps from both sides included) 

[Dave Turner]

Ilya,

Since there is not a version of DEX version for Linux I regret I'll not be able try it out. I will, however, continue to monitor the comments made by knowledgeable users.

[Wytnucls]

We know the procedure Iliya. It didn't work with the split symbols taken individually. If both borders are deleted, then the circle connections magically reappear on both symbols. I guess that's fine then.

I just checked it and it works for me. Remember to sub pick the symbol border and then deleted.

This is the behavior:
If I delete only one border of a split part, then I get no electrical connections on the bare symbol.
If I delete both borders, then I get the electrical connections back. But now I need to rebuild U1-1, which a pain.

The latest version will fix your problems and all terminals will appear as dots terminals. I have also improved adding the selected part to the library. It works fine, even for multi-symbol parts.

I can confirm that the dot terminals appear now, when deleting one border only.
I can save a split symbol part as a design in the library, but not as a new version for a part. Could you please go through the steps to save as a new part. As far as I can tell, 'Create sibling' only works in the project window, not the part window.

[c4757p]

You're a developer and you can't figure out git?

[miguelvp]

You're a developer and you can't figure out git?

He doesn't want to use the time to learn it at time point, specially since he was looking at it for integrating it into DEX.
Nothing stops anyone from doing their own GIT depot for version control of their libraries independent from DEX.

[BradC]

He doesn't want to use the time to learn it at time point, specially since he was looking at it for integrating it into DEX.

Which is ok, because it's actually the wrong tool for the job anyway. GIT is great for a many person decentralized development environment. That is what it was written for. It has some serious flaws for small internal use that makes CVS or subversion look pretty damn good. GIT is not the miracle cure all for version control, in fact it's just a one trick pony that suits kernel development and was hacked up in a hurry when Bitkeeper pulled their license. It's ok (or maybe good) but it is certainly not great and certainly more complex and error prone than some alternatives.

[Iliya]

To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

So, I am sad to say that GIT is a no-go.

Why on Earth is it relevant to adopt a tribal Windows/Unix standpoint? I'm not actually sure what the objection means. Possibly a reference to a multitude of command line options. GIT was developed specifically to manage the distributed development of the Linux kernel. That it is massaged into use for so many other purposes is in itself a testament to its usefulness. Some uses are somewhat questionable (eg hardware) but that is not a fault of GIT.

I am considering how a user of DEX would use it. I assume they would not want to jump through loops to have version control. I would want it to be as automatic as possible. GIT is designed for programmers.

P.S. I worked as a Unix System Administrator many years ago.

[IanJ]

Hi,

Have jumped straight in and am testing DEX out. A couple of wee comments/issues:-

1. I find there's a little bit of lag on the mouse movement when manually routing in comparison to moving routed tracks/segments. All the extra on-screen activity? Be nice if it was really fluid.

2. Some display corruption the 3rd or 4th time I opened the app and when I maximize the app. See two screenshots comparison of windowed & maximized. See right side of screen.

NB. Win7, i7, Nvidia GT640 (dual screen). Drivers fully up-to-date. No issues with any other cad apps.

Ian.

[Iliya]

Hi,

Have jumped straight in and am testing DEX out. A couple of wee comments/issues:-

1. I find there's a little bit of lag on the mouse movement when manually routing in comparison to moving routed tracks/segments. All the extra on-screen activity? Be nice if it was really fluid.

2. Some display corruption the 3rd or 4th time I opened the app and when I maximize the app. See two screenshots comparison of windowed & maximized. See right side of screen.

NB. Win7, i7, Nvidia GT640 (dual screen). Drivers fully up-to-date. No issues with any other cad apps.

Ian.

I have done some changes so you should not see a time lag when you start manually routing.
I have seen the problem with the missing parts of the screen on the right and will try to reproduce it and fix its soon.

[mswhin63]

2. Some display corruption the 3rd or 4th time I opened the app and when I maximize the app. See two screenshots comparison of windowed & maximized. See right side of screen.

I have this problem but it only occurs after an update and usually once only never to appear again. I haven't considered it much thought really

[timb]

To me it seems obvious that this was written by a UNIX guy.

So, I am sad to say that GIT is a no-go.

Why on Earth is it relevant to adopt a tribal Windows/Unix standpoint? I'm not actually sure what the objection means. Possibly a reference to a multitude of command line options. GIT was developed specifically to manage the distributed development of the Linux kernel. That it is massaged into use for so many other purposes is in itself a testament to its usefulness. Some uses are somewhat questionable (eg hardware) but that is not a fault of GIT.

I am considering how a user of DEX would use it. I assume they would not want to jump through loops to have version control. I would want it to be as automatic as possible. GIT is designed for programmers.

P.S. I worked as a Unix System Administrator many years ago.

They wouldn't have to learn it if it was integrated into your software, like how VS on Windows and Xcode on Mac have it integrated. No need to mess with the command line or know anything about VC. Each time the user saves a file DEX would make a commit and a new branch is automatically created. You'd have a timeline view so the user could see all the changes made to their design and revert back and forth if needed.

This would use a local repository, but you'd also give the user the option to connect to GitHub or any other Git repo, where they could push their changes and sync up. This would be good for OS projects, collaboration or simple as a backup. Just add a new menu item under "Save" called Push to Git.

Seriously, take the time to learn how to integrate it into your software, it's a powerful tool.

By the way, when MS releases .NET for Mac/Linux, will you be providing an installer for those platforms? (I assume that's how it'll work.)


Sent from my Tablet

[nctnico]

I have looked into GIT for another project but the non-centralized structure can make it a mess in the hands of a non-software person. You need to download all the commits of a project before you can pull a working set of files from it. If a project is large it can mean having to download hundreds of megabytes.

Regarding .NET: once you step into that Bill's fist is stuck firmly in your a.s . And there is no real way to use a generic .NET application on Linux or MAC because the implementations for those platforms are so incomplete you have to design an application from the ground up in order to have a chance at porting it. A shame because a recent poll showed that about 30% of the Eevblog visitors are users of Linux and a large percentage is using Linux as their primary OS.

[timb]

I have looked into GIT for another project but the non-centralized structure can make it a mess in the hands of a non-software person. You need to download all the commits of a project before you can pull a working set of files from it. If a project is large it can mean having to download hundreds of megabytes.

Regarding .NET: once you step into that Bill's fist is stuck firmly in your a.s . And there is no real way to use a generic .NET application on Linux or MAC because the implementations for those platforms are so incomplete you have to design an application from the ground up in order to have a chance at porting it. A shame because a recent poll showed that about 30% of the Eevblog visitors are users of Linux and a large percentage is using Linux as their primary OS.

Didn't you hear the news? Microsoft is officially releasing .NET for Linux and OS X!

On the one hand, it's a bit scary for some Mac users because most (not all) Windows programmers couldn't design a functional UI/UX if their lives depended on it. (Seriously, have they never heard of HID Guidelines?!) Some people are afraid we'll have an influx of poor quality cross platform software like it was 1996 and Java was the hot new thing.

Personally, I welcome the addition of .NET, as it'll potentially expand the platform and make us less reliant on VMWare. Plus, perhaps we can take WINE out back and put a bullet in 'er. (Think about the rabbits, WINE...)


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