help buying a good PCB mill

[matute1]

I need your help to tell me which of this PCB mill is better

Thank you.

[IconicPCB]

I was in Your position seven eight years ago.

Got in touch with LPKF ..liked the correspondence.

Went to Tokyo electronics exhibition at Big Sight to see LPKF gear.
At the same time called on MITS at their factory on the outskirts of Tokyo, liked their gear as well. While there picked a bug in their software which was fixed within a day.

In the end decided I could not afford the money LPKF wanted, could not afford not to have some options whihc MITS did not have ( maximum panel size ), so I built my own( AUD30K later ).

In my opinion MITS is better value for money than LPKF and was my first choice from the field of commercially available gear.

Your other option is a second hand router ( say an excellon machine) and Graphicode Power station gerber editor whihc has all the functionality to handle the task of gerber processing and G code generation.

[fivefish]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

[matute1]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

[matute1]

Your other option is a second hand router ( say an excellon machine) and Graphicode Power station gerber editor whihc has all the functionality to handle the task of gerber processing and G code generation.

is something like this what you ended up doing in the end?

[mikeselectricstuff]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

[G0HZU]

I've got a couple of T-Tech machines here at home that I've been using for many years.

IMO these things are brilliant if you want to design lots of of small prototype PCBs on exotic RF laminates (eg Rogers 4003 or 4350) because you can mill/build/test several iterations of a microwave filter or oscillator or amplifier design in an afternoon.

But I really can't recommend a PCB mill for general electronics stuff built on common/cheap laminates like FR4. Like others have said on here, the modern PCB houses can make a much higher quality board in a few days for very little money.

The milling machine can also be useful for making mockup front panels and also making laminated tools or for engraving but I don't use mine for this stuff very often.
At work we have an old LPKF C30S mill and this is still working fine and it sees regular use. It must have milled a couple of thousand? (usually very, very small) PCBs in the ~12 years we have had it.

So basically, for RF based design work these tools are brilliant but for pretty much anything else they are an expensive dinosaur IMO.

[mrpackethead]

I was in Your position seven eight years ago.

Got in touch with LPKF ..liked the correspondence.

I liked the correspondence, the marketing and the hype. The promise was good, and even though it was expensive, i thought this will be a good thing to buy......

Went to Tokyo electronics exhibition at Big Sight to see LPKF gear.

I bought one. ( S62)  It turned out to be the biggest waste of time and money.   Absolutely terrible support from the local distributor. The software was buggy and after  6 months of trying, they eventually decided to take it back..    Lesson. Dont' waste your time with an LPKF

[mrpackethead]

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

Yup, your absolutely right, its hard doing reliable 2 layer boards, with vias..  I wished i had learned this lesson the right way!

[rx8pilot]

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

+1

I researched this and it was above my threshold of pain. That says a LOT, I have a long history of diving into to shark tanks. Taking on very ambitious manufacturing challenges. Making multi-layer PCB's seemed very fiddly and time consuming and that was based on the information from the sales people at LPKF. The press system and plated through hole process is not very well suited for casual use from what I learned. Went through a similar research project with anodizing aluminum, it is technically possible but it is essentially a full time job learning and managing the process.

When I did the math, it would take an enormous amount of prototypes to be justified. The time I spend waiting for the PCB's I use up ordering parts, writing code, developing my test procedures for the design, loading and programming the pick and place, etc.

[free_electron]

other. have boards made in china
-cheap
- doublesided and multilayer is possible
- no dust in your room ( fiberglass is baaaaad )
- no noise ( these machines are noisy )
- no disappointment ( these machines are ALL TOTAL AND UTTER CRAP. i had one. LPKF 95S including plating machine and multilayer press. never had one working board )

[IconicPCB]

I run a multilayer press and palladium hole wall activation process..
I get good results.In the last 7 years had to do a rerun twice only.

I check all my production on a Probot flying probe tester.

[mrpackethead]

go with what you think but just remember you've been warned.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I run a multilayer press and palladium hole wall activation process..
I get good results.In the last 7 years had to do a rerun twice only.

I check all my production on a Probot flying probe tester.

..and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?

[rx8pilot]

..and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?

 
 
 

[nctnico]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

Sorry but that idea is totally crazy! Better look for a cheaper PCB prototype supplier because your company is being ripped off! So kick the purchasing department in their asses to add a supplier to the list. Eurocircuits is very good & quick for PCB prototypes.

[G0HZU]

As I already said, I only really recommend these things for milling on exotic laminates for RF based work.

However, I can add a few more caveats...

Don't expect to be able to use the machine like some kind of PCB vending machine where you feed it a few files, load a few tools and get a perfectly milled PCB at the end of it.

The salesperson can make it look like that is possible but in reality the operator needs a reasonable degree of skill and experience to get good results. I know from experience what happens if one of these machines is made available to allcomers. You will get engineers who will damage it through ignorance and others who will claim the machine is completely crap (again, through ignorance and lack of skills)

PCB milling has been part of RF design and dev at my place of work since the early 1990s when a director bought one (T-Tech) for home use. The company bought one a couple of years later for use on site. This was later upgraded to the LPKF machine.

I bought my first one for home use some time around 2001/2 and it is still working fine. But I use it almost exclusively with exotic PCB laminates for RF research work up in the GHz region.

The other advice I would give is that you should try and use a dedicated PC for milling and only have the minimum software installed on the PC to run the milling. I still use an old Win98SE PC with mine and at work we use an old PC with the LPKF machine.

Also, only allow trained users to operate the machine. This way you will get consistent results and will be less likely to damage the instrument or the user.

[fivefish]

Your PCB milling machine, just like any CNC machine, expect long learning curve, broken expensive bits as you're trying to learn, and make notes of combination of speed/material that will work for your specific milling job.

+1 on dedicated computer for this task. My CNC computer is still an old Win2000 with IDE drives and parallel LPT port.

But overall, I think your company is crazy wanting to go this route vs. just sending PCBs out for prototyping. Waste of money, time and manpower if all you want is a simple PCB prototype.

[G0HZU]

But overall, I think your company is crazy wanting to go this route vs. just sending PCBs out for prototyping. Waste of money, time and manpower if all you want is a simple PCB prototype.

For regular FR4 based stuff I agree

For many years we used our mill to make FR4 based test jig PCBs as well as for doing the RF work. There was a time when this was cost effective but not any more.

The mill simply can't compete here unless you need an FR4 PCB the same day regardless of quality. Otherwise, it is much better to order a PCB with solder resist and proper via holes and silk screen etc etc.

But for RF stuff like microwave filters, oscillators, amps that require Rogers laminates the mill is still the tool of choice in a busy RF lab. Especially if doing research work into stuff like defected grounding where you might want to make several iterations of one PCB in one day.

But there are few users who need to do stuff like this. I'm not sure what the future holds for companies like T-Tech and LPKF. Their market share of the PCB prototyping world must be shrinking a lot each year...

[IconicPCB]

"...and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?..."

It took some time to collate the equipment and processes. Much like any other process You might want to implement.
I did not go with an off the shelf solution. I looked for most effective solution.
I deigned and built all of our equipment bar the flying probe tester.
My rationale was to set up a PCB prototyping service specifically targeting R&D effort in Australia.

Other than designing and building our equipment ( for example I was looking at LPKF machine approximately USD90K but settled on our own design with a much sturdier frame, closed loop 100KRP low runout spindle), I settled on Graphicode Power station a genereral purpose  gerber editor to implement data processing and tool path generation.

Power station does all the data processing I need in other areas other than milling. My approach was  an indepth approach to setting up prototyping to service a market where now there is only one serious manufacturer left from the pre crash days. Everything else had gone offshore with offshore delays.

We offer 24 hour double sided turnaround... and typically 48 hours in multilayer product with LPISM  and component legend.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"...and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?..."

It took some time to collate the equipment and processes. Much like any other process You might want to implement.
I did not go with an off the shelf solution. I looked for most effective solution.
I deigned and built all of our equipment bar the flying probe tester.
My rationale was to set up a PCB prototyping service specifically targeting R&D effort in Australia.

Other than designing and building our equipment ( for example I was looking at LPKF machine approximately USD90K but settled on our own design with a much sturdier frame, closed loop 100KRP low runout spindle), I settled on Graphicode Power station a genereral purpose  gerber editor to implement data processing and tool path generation.

Power station does all the data processing I need in other areas other than milling. My approach was  an indepth approach to setting up prototyping to service a market where now there is only one serious manufacturer left from the pre crash days. Everything else had gone offshore with offshore delays.

We offer 24 hour double sided turnaround... and typically 48 hours in multilayer product with LPISM  and component legend.

You're in the business of making PCBs - the OP isn't, and spending resources on basically re-inventing the wheel can only be a diversion from their main business.
 

[rx8pilot]

When I started my little manufacturing business a decade ago the plan was to make a variety of products and rely on my industrial design and mechanical engineering skills to make that happen. I decided to get a CNC mill from the very beginning because we were going to need a ton of CNC prototypes and short runs done.

Skip to the end.....

We became a CNC shop effectively. I ended up selling off the the CNC shop recently and my business has REALLY done better. I literally became a full time machinist and everything about the company circled around the CNC machining operation. Once I added up all the direct and indirect costs (including massive opportunity costs), I realized how bad of a decision it was. Goodbye CNC.

I do, however, have a pick and place machine, a laser, and a bunch of other things we use for assembly. Those assets actually fit the business quite well and give us an edge in our market. Ask yourself which category this PCB mill will be in and what business you are in.

[mrpackethead]

theres always pcb milss for sale on Ebay. LPKF seem to feature..  If they were so good why are people getting rid of them

[bookaboo]

I used to have a T-Tech, the drill motor self destructed and I never bothered to fix it even though it would have only been $400.... that should tell you what I now think about milling. In fairness it was bought before the days of cheap fast prototypes and it wasn't a bad machine.
These days you would really have to be in some niche market where you MUST spin lots of PCBs on 1-2 day turnaround...... because running a mill machine is much more expensive, labour intensive, dusty, noisy and frustrating (ever watched a router bit cut it's way through 5 hours worth of milling and tool changes?)

Best thing about owning a PCB mill machine is that you can get rid of it and enjoy not owning one for the rest of your life.

[mrpackethead]

Sadly, some people ( including myself ) wont' learn until you've made all the mistake yoruself!