help buying a good PCB mill

[matute1]

I need your help to tell me which of this PCB mill is better

Thank you.

[IconicPCB]

I was in Your position seven eight years ago.

Got in touch with LPKF ..liked the correspondence.

Went to Tokyo electronics exhibition at Big Sight to see LPKF gear.
At the same time called on MITS at their factory on the outskirts of Tokyo, liked their gear as well. While there picked a bug in their software which was fixed within a day.

In the end decided I could not afford the money LPKF wanted, could not afford not to have some options whihc MITS did not have ( maximum panel size ), so I built my own( AUD30K later ).

In my opinion MITS is better value for money than LPKF and was my first choice from the field of commercially available gear.

Your other option is a second hand router ( say an excellon machine) and Graphicode Power station gerber editor whihc has all the functionality to handle the task of gerber processing and G code generation.

[fivefish]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

[matute1]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

[matute1]

Your other option is a second hand router ( say an excellon machine) and Graphicode Power station gerber editor whihc has all the functionality to handle the task of gerber processing and G code generation.

is something like this what you ended up doing in the end?

[mikeselectricstuff]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

[G0HZU]

I've got a couple of T-Tech machines here at home that I've been using for many years.

IMO these things are brilliant if you want to design lots of of small prototype PCBs on exotic RF laminates (eg Rogers 4003 or 4350) because you can mill/build/test several iterations of a microwave filter or oscillator or amplifier design in an afternoon.

But I really can't recommend a PCB mill for general electronics stuff built on common/cheap laminates like FR4. Like others have said on here, the modern PCB houses can make a much higher quality board in a few days for very little money.

The milling machine can also be useful for making mockup front panels and also making laminated tools or for engraving but I don't use mine for this stuff very often.
At work we have an old LPKF C30S mill and this is still working fine and it sees regular use. It must have milled a couple of thousand? (usually very, very small) PCBs in the ~12 years we have had it.

So basically, for RF based design work these tools are brilliant but for pretty much anything else they are an expensive dinosaur IMO.

[mrpackethead]

I was in Your position seven eight years ago.

Got in touch with LPKF ..liked the correspondence.

I liked the correspondence, the marketing and the hype. The promise was good, and even though it was expensive, i thought this will be a good thing to buy......

Went to Tokyo electronics exhibition at Big Sight to see LPKF gear.

I bought one. ( S62)  It turned out to be the biggest waste of time and money.   Absolutely terrible support from the local distributor. The software was buggy and after  6 months of trying, they eventually decided to take it back..    Lesson. Dont' waste your time with an LPKF

[mrpackethead]

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

Yup, your absolutely right, its hard doing reliable 2 layer boards, with vias..  I wished i had learned this lesson the right way!

[rx8pilot]

Unless you really need ultra-fast turnround, looking at other subcontractors is going to be a much better approach once you factor in the labour time and learning time to get a milling system running well enough to match even the cheapest  crappiest PCB house.
In-house multilayer would be totally nuts. leave it to people who do this stuff all day long.

+1

I researched this and it was above my threshold of pain. That says a LOT, I have a long history of diving into to shark tanks. Taking on very ambitious manufacturing challenges. Making multi-layer PCB's seemed very fiddly and time consuming and that was based on the information from the sales people at LPKF. The press system and plated through hole process is not very well suited for casual use from what I learned. Went through a similar research project with anodizing aluminum, it is technically possible but it is essentially a full time job learning and managing the process.

When I did the math, it would take an enormous amount of prototypes to be justified. The time I spend waiting for the PCB's I use up ordering parts, writing code, developing my test procedures for the design, loading and programming the pick and place, etc.

[free_electron]

other. have boards made in china
-cheap
- doublesided and multilayer is possible
- no dust in your room ( fiberglass is baaaaad )
- no noise ( these machines are noisy )
- no disappointment ( these machines are ALL TOTAL AND UTTER CRAP. i had one. LPKF 95S including plating machine and multilayer press. never had one working board )

[IconicPCB]

I run a multilayer press and palladium hole wall activation process..
I get good results.In the last 7 years had to do a rerun twice only.

I check all my production on a Probot flying probe tester.

[mrpackethead]

go with what you think but just remember you've been warned.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I run a multilayer press and palladium hole wall activation process..
I get good results.In the last 7 years had to do a rerun twice only.

I check all my production on a Probot flying probe tester.

..and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?

[rx8pilot]

..and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?

 
 
 

[nctnico]

You should do a comparison if company is really saving any money milling their own PCB vs. sending gerbers out for prototype PCBs. 

Milling your own PCB, you're limited to one layer, with some fiddling and mcgoober job, you may be able to do double sided. How many milled PCBs do you have to make to have a cost break-even vs. how many prototype PCB jobs you can send out to match the cost of the milling machine (+ time/lost-productivity babysitting it).

we already did the company has only some approved suppliers and with what we have paid we would have already been able to buy one and the required consumables also we were thinking of buying a multi-layer press and through-hole plating so we can make multi-layer PCB's

Sorry but that idea is totally crazy! Better look for a cheaper PCB prototype supplier because your company is being ripped off! So kick the purchasing department in their asses to add a supplier to the list. Eurocircuits is very good & quick for PCB prototypes.

[G0HZU]

As I already said, I only really recommend these things for milling on exotic laminates for RF based work.

However, I can add a few more caveats...

Don't expect to be able to use the machine like some kind of PCB vending machine where you feed it a few files, load a few tools and get a perfectly milled PCB at the end of it.

The salesperson can make it look like that is possible but in reality the operator needs a reasonable degree of skill and experience to get good results. I know from experience what happens if one of these machines is made available to allcomers. You will get engineers who will damage it through ignorance and others who will claim the machine is completely crap (again, through ignorance and lack of skills)

PCB milling has been part of RF design and dev at my place of work since the early 1990s when a director bought one (T-Tech) for home use. The company bought one a couple of years later for use on site. This was later upgraded to the LPKF machine.

I bought my first one for home use some time around 2001/2 and it is still working fine. But I use it almost exclusively with exotic PCB laminates for RF research work up in the GHz region.

The other advice I would give is that you should try and use a dedicated PC for milling and only have the minimum software installed on the PC to run the milling. I still use an old Win98SE PC with mine and at work we use an old PC with the LPKF machine.

Also, only allow trained users to operate the machine. This way you will get consistent results and will be less likely to damage the instrument or the user.

[fivefish]

Your PCB milling machine, just like any CNC machine, expect long learning curve, broken expensive bits as you're trying to learn, and make notes of combination of speed/material that will work for your specific milling job.

+1 on dedicated computer for this task. My CNC computer is still an old Win2000 with IDE drives and parallel LPT port.

But overall, I think your company is crazy wanting to go this route vs. just sending PCBs out for prototyping. Waste of money, time and manpower if all you want is a simple PCB prototype.

[G0HZU]

But overall, I think your company is crazy wanting to go this route vs. just sending PCBs out for prototyping. Waste of money, time and manpower if all you want is a simple PCB prototype.

For regular FR4 based stuff I agree

For many years we used our mill to make FR4 based test jig PCBs as well as for doing the RF work. There was a time when this was cost effective but not any more.

The mill simply can't compete here unless you need an FR4 PCB the same day regardless of quality. Otherwise, it is much better to order a PCB with solder resist and proper via holes and silk screen etc etc.

But for RF stuff like microwave filters, oscillators, amps that require Rogers laminates the mill is still the tool of choice in a busy RF lab. Especially if doing research work into stuff like defected grounding where you might want to make several iterations of one PCB in one day.

But there are few users who need to do stuff like this. I'm not sure what the future holds for companies like T-Tech and LPKF. Their market share of the PCB prototyping world must be shrinking a lot each year...

[IconicPCB]

"...and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?..."

It took some time to collate the equipment and processes. Much like any other process You might want to implement.
I did not go with an off the shelf solution. I looked for most effective solution.
I deigned and built all of our equipment bar the flying probe tester.
My rationale was to set up a PCB prototyping service specifically targeting R&D effort in Australia.

Other than designing and building our equipment ( for example I was looking at LPKF machine approximately USD90K but settled on our own design with a much sturdier frame, closed loop 100KRP low runout spindle), I settled on Graphicode Power station a genereral purpose  gerber editor to implement data processing and tool path generation.

Power station does all the data processing I need in other areas other than milling. My approach was  an indepth approach to setting up prototyping to service a market where now there is only one serious manufacturer left from the pre crash days. Everything else had gone offshore with offshore delays.

We offer 24 hour double sided turnaround... and typically 48 hours in multilayer product with LPISM  and component legend.

[mikeselectricstuff]

"...and how many man-hours did it take to get to that point, and how much investment ?
I assume you're using chemical etch, not milling as being discussed here?..."

It took some time to collate the equipment and processes. Much like any other process You might want to implement.
I did not go with an off the shelf solution. I looked for most effective solution.
I deigned and built all of our equipment bar the flying probe tester.
My rationale was to set up a PCB prototyping service specifically targeting R&D effort in Australia.

Other than designing and building our equipment ( for example I was looking at LPKF machine approximately USD90K but settled on our own design with a much sturdier frame, closed loop 100KRP low runout spindle), I settled on Graphicode Power station a genereral purpose  gerber editor to implement data processing and tool path generation.

Power station does all the data processing I need in other areas other than milling. My approach was  an indepth approach to setting up prototyping to service a market where now there is only one serious manufacturer left from the pre crash days. Everything else had gone offshore with offshore delays.

We offer 24 hour double sided turnaround... and typically 48 hours in multilayer product with LPISM  and component legend.

You're in the business of making PCBs - the OP isn't, and spending resources on basically re-inventing the wheel can only be a diversion from their main business.
 

[rx8pilot]

When I started my little manufacturing business a decade ago the plan was to make a variety of products and rely on my industrial design and mechanical engineering skills to make that happen. I decided to get a CNC mill from the very beginning because we were going to need a ton of CNC prototypes and short runs done.

Skip to the end.....

We became a CNC shop effectively. I ended up selling off the the CNC shop recently and my business has REALLY done better. I literally became a full time machinist and everything about the company circled around the CNC machining operation. Once I added up all the direct and indirect costs (including massive opportunity costs), I realized how bad of a decision it was. Goodbye CNC.

I do, however, have a pick and place machine, a laser, and a bunch of other things we use for assembly. Those assets actually fit the business quite well and give us an edge in our market. Ask yourself which category this PCB mill will be in and what business you are in.

[mrpackethead]

theres always pcb milss for sale on Ebay. LPKF seem to feature..  If they were so good why are people getting rid of them

[bookaboo]

I used to have a T-Tech, the drill motor self destructed and I never bothered to fix it even though it would have only been $400.... that should tell you what I now think about milling. In fairness it was bought before the days of cheap fast prototypes and it wasn't a bad machine.
These days you would really have to be in some niche market where you MUST spin lots of PCBs on 1-2 day turnaround...... because running a mill machine is much more expensive, labour intensive, dusty, noisy and frustrating (ever watched a router bit cut it's way through 5 hours worth of milling and tool changes?)

Best thing about owning a PCB mill machine is that you can get rid of it and enjoy not owning one for the rest of your life.

[mrpackethead]

Sadly, some people ( including myself ) wont' learn until you've made all the mistake yoruself!

[G0HZU]

(ever watched a router bit cut it's way through 5 hours worth of milling and tool changes?)

I saw that happen to a colleague many, many years ago on a very large and complicated two layer board. On the older T-Tech machines the router bit can get very hot under certain circumstances and it can actually come loose in the chuck. This is a bad aspect of the design. So the tool can drop down into the PCB when the machine thinks it has lifted it. So the moment the machine moves the tool across the board it cuts a huge score across the PCB and wrecks it.

So I have learned from his pain and I always try and configure the router pattern such that it allows the tool to cool between long cuts and also I can control the order of cuts to prevent the machine crossing the board after a long (hot) cut.

Also, I think it really is a false economy to be milling boards that take a long time to mill. These machines are at their best when milling small RF boards or small piggy PCBs that are used to modify an existiing PCB. It can mill a smallish PCB in under half an hour. Or it can mill a laminated tool in even less.

My T Tech machines came with a service kit containing a spare motor, Z solenoid and other accessories and both are still on the original motor and solenoid. The machine I use most is over 20yrs old as I bought it used way back around 2001/2.

[mrpackethead]

(ever watched a router bit cut it's way through 5 hours worth of milling and tool changes?)

Yup. not always 5 hours worth though, sometimes it was just 3 hours..   Software just randomly thought it would go home in a straight line.. or something else dumb.    REally cool when it was a 2mm end mill and its just bored its way through the middle of your board.

Nuf said, order your boards in.  It seems a hard thing to do. Really its not.

[G0HZU]

Like I said earlier, at work, our LPKF machine must have produced a couple of thousand PCBs by now.

If you listened to the naysayers on here who reckon these things basically don't work then I guess you would conclude that I'm not telling the truth 

I'm aware of the history of four PCB mills dating back many years. The most unreliable one was the early T-Tech (1990? model) that ran from a PC running DOS and the controller was partly inside the PC in an ISA slot. This old machine proved to be very fussy wrt the PC that was used with it and it needed to be run from a (slow and basic) DOS PC built in the early 1990s. Otherwise it would behave erratically.

My main machine is a later T-Tech 7000S model with all the control done in an external controller box and it can tolerate a PC with a faster processor and it is controlled via RS-232 from the PC. But I still run it from an old and slow PC running Win98SE.  I have another T-Tech 7000S which I bought very cheaply, mainly intended as a (long term) spares donor.

If you want good results from these machines then you need to learn a few skills and show a bit of finesse when operating it and try and use a dedicated (stable) PC to operate it. It's very rare for me to trash a PCB or even to make a minor milling error.

The other thing is that you do have to service/maintain the machine or it will complain. I clean/oil/grease the linear ways and the lead screws regularly and I also use sympathetic settings for certain tools and this helps prolong the life of the motor and its bearings.

One option is to do what I did and buy a used one. Mine came with the Nilfisk extraction system and loads of tools and I got it for about £800. I reclaimed the cost within a few months by milling microwave filter PCBs on Rogers material for a local company.

Overall, I would recommend the LPKF C30S over my old T-Tech 7000S because it is easier to use, the SW is a lot better and is a lot safer for the operator in terms of exposure to moving parts. It also lives in a cabinet supplied by LPKF that reduces the noise a lot when the lid is closed over it.

[rich]

I was going to stay out of this as my home-brew setup won't offer useful insight for the OP, but I am curious to know what type of cutter gets used in these high end machines? - I've been experimenting with 0.2mm V cutters with mixed results.

[G0HZU]

I use lots of cutting tools here and I am also lucky in that I can salvage part worn tools from work. At work we dispense of tools when prompted by the software and I find they are still useful for non critical milling here at home. This helps me keep costs down at home. I have lots of new tools here at home but I only use these when absolutely necessary.

So I still get good results even with part worn pointed tools from LPKF. I also use various end mills from 0.005" through to 0.0371". The end mills are useful when milling precise circuits like microwave filters.

The pointed V tools go dull fairly quickly on materials like Rogers 4003.

The tool I use the most is the universal/pointed cutter (tool #2) from LPKF in the pdf file below. I also use the T1 pointed tool from T-Tech.

http://www.lpkf.com/_mediafiles/1792-brochure-lpkf-drilling-milling-routing-tools-en.pdf

[rich]

Thanks for the pointers, I shall give the universal type a tryout next time and see if I get a cleaner finish.

[IconicPCB]

I have used both type 1 and 2 from LPKF.. great tools but horribly expensive.

I have not used any T-Tech tools. I had trialed Union tools, Kyocera a and a few others and settled on Precise Bits.

Excellent price compared to LPKF... Great tools. Sturdy, long life at half the LPKF price.

Included angle 10 degrees triple fluted clean cutting. This is second generation tool from Precise bits. First generation is still offered at about two third the price of second generation.

I also use TCI carbide endmills... get them from manufacturer directly , minimum order values in the order of a couple of thousand dollars.
Anybody needs square endmill and diamond cut router bits or drill bits.. drop me a line.

I also get the drill bits from the same source.

[mrpackethead]

Like I said earlier, at work, our LPKF machine must have produced a couple of thousand PCBs by now.

If you listened to the naysayers on here who reckon these things basically don't work then I guess you would conclude that I'm not telling the truth 

Well, then your calling me a liar.   The machine did'tn work the software was buggy as crap, oh and the suppllier and the agent coud'tn get it work either.   

Overall, I would recommend the LPKF C30S

Maybe LPFK was better to you than me, but i cant' offer any recommednation from them other than to say, i've not had any purchasing experiecnes go as bad as buying the S62.

[free_electron]

Like I said earlier, at work, our LPKF machine must have produced a couple of thousand PCBs by now.

good for you. i got none.

Here are my requirements :
100% IDENTICAL boards to what an etched board would look like. so no 'isolation miling only'. i needed full copper rubout.
smallest track : 4 mil .
smallest gap : 4 mils.
Smallest drill : 14mils
standard 62 mils board thickness
plated
board : PCI plug-in card : full height , short form factor ( so roughty 10cm by 14 cm )

milling : (lpkf95S)
the milling bits are V-tipped ( not flat) you set the width of the mill by pressing a plastic ring over the shaft of the milling bit. this controls how deep the bit bites.
if your target material is not perfectly flat , or not mounted perfectly flat ( the pea under the princesses matress problem ) the width fluctuates. the spindle floats on an air bearing and they claim they have precise distance control. they didn't. over a length of 200mm i saw the groove fluctuate from 3 mils to more than 5 mils. i wanted milling of a 4 mil isolation gap. milling is inconsistent.

the same issue happens with the drill bits. i can't remember how many times it broke the drill bit mid cycle. especially their double copper foil material was a disaster.

issues with the machine
- serial port problems. machine locks up milling head down , max rpm
- serial port problems. machine draws a line random through everytinhg on the board rendering entire board garbage. they swapped controllers 3 times. finally blamed the computer.
- serial port problems : during a comms failure while performing a tool change ( our machine had an automatic toolchanger) the machine ran the head into the tool tray bending the entire mechanism...

software lockups during parsing of the gerber.

Plating problems : the chemistry goes bad very quickly end is costly. getting rid of the chemicals is also a nightmare. they refused to give out what the chemicals exactly were so our environmental inspector had problems classifying that stuff.
getting the plating chemistry right was a nightmare. the copper was never shiny , non uniform , air bubbles in the tiny holes... yadda yadda. their board moving mechanism was basically a plastic frame on an eccentric motor. that drive bar broke after 1 hour ...

this was 2003...  maybe it's better now. we invested 40k$ in that setup. zero boards ! ZERO !


That stuff is like the hobby 3d printer : you spend more time dicking around with the machine itself than doing work with the machine.
send your boards to china. you can do multilayers, get soldermask and silkscreen , enig and 10% electrically tested. and while waiting for the boards you can do other useful things as opposed to babysitting the crappy mill.

[IconicPCB]

One would think the equipment would have improved in the past ten odd years.

I mean it is German engineering after all. Second to none.

[mrpackethead]

One would think the equipment would have improved in the past ten odd years.

I mean it is German engineering after all. Second to none.

My experience was 4 years ago, and it was still crap then.  Pretty much same issues as above.

[IconicPCB]

The fact You had a bad experience with equipment and the agent could not help means both You and agent were at similar level of need to train on this equipment.

An agent is not an expert on every piece of gear they rep.

I saw LPKF equipment mid 2007  at an exhibition having corresponded with LPKF Germany in the couple of months leading up to the exhibition.

All this negativity flies in the face of personal good experience with this technology.  May be its because I don't mind getting wet during sex.

[G0HZU]

One trick I can offer wrt drilling with fine drills is to prick the PCB first using the pointed tool. This helps to prevent the drill tip skating on the copper surface and breaking the drill bit.

This can be done by simply running the drill layer as a pointed tool and this puts a tiny little surface dimple into the PCB that helps to lock the drill in place.

However, I don't use drill bits below 0.5mm diameter and this is the smallest drill bit in the drill kit supplied to me by LPKF. The finest end mills I have are 0.0055" and these can be used to mill very accurately and this is the finest pitch I normally use. This is much more precise that using the pointed tool and the cutting width is effectively inde[endent of tool depth with the end mill.

The finest work I've done with mine was to mill a flexible ribbon cable using double sided flexi PCB material that is about the same thickness overall as printer paper. The PCB looked and felt like copper paper. Obviously, this took a lot of preparation and some skill and patience to achieve but I managed to mill the material without perforating through to the other copper layer. I used the pointed tool here and LPKF supplied me with some hard and smooth backing material that was as smooth and flat as glass.

Obviously, I'm not an LPKF engineer/rep but I would suggest that all of the erratic milling behaviour experienced would be due to the PC controlling the machine. It's debateable whether this is still LPKF's problem but it must be getting harder and harder to get reliable operation with modern PCs running a modern OS and all the baggage that goes with a modern PC in terms of security/AV/networking/ports etc.

[nctnico]

IMHO you must invest time to get a good grip on any technology used to create PCBs by yourself. The milling machines are sold as being an easy solution but I think that is a "salesmen's truth" (IOW: an outright lie). I think the biggest question you must ask yourself is: how quick do I really need a board? And can I make a prototype in a way it is easy to modify / patch so a prototype doesn't need a respin at the first time of problems?

About once or twice a year I etch boards myself which I need really quick but in most of the cases I just plan my projects in a way I can do something different while waiting for a board to get produced by a professional PCB maker. So far I'm not convinced milling is a good technology for anything else than creating RF prototypes. Doing multilayer boards and/or plated through holes in a company lab or your shed is just crazy because it will be hard to get right and also due to the toxic chemicals involved and their disposal issues. At some point you have to leave a job in the hands of a professional who has all the right equipment and does the work day in day out.

[mrpackethead]

The fact You had a bad experience with equipment and the agent could not help means both You and agent were at similar level of need to train on this equipment.

For clarity, both the agent and the manufacturer were unable to resolve the issues, which was software related.  No amount of "training" would have resolved the issue.  I guess i could have requested the source code and debugged it... but...

I guess its why in the end they took the machine back and refunded the money, becuase it did'tn work

[G0HZU]

No amount of "training" would have resolved the issue.

It looks like you were let down by poorly trained reps. Considering what these things cost new I'm surprised they didn't supply you with a known working PC to resolve the issue. But even then, it may fail again if the PC OS gets updated.

Back in the days when I used to see the LPKF rep fairly regularly he always brought his own laptop with him and I suspect that this was because it was known to work reliably with all of their machines. These days he wouldn't be allowed to bring a laptop to my place of work for various security reasons and I suspect that this may be the same for other companies too.

Maybe a stable version of Linux would be a better option for the OS?

[rx8pilot]

FWIW, I had the same fiddly experiences with my CNC milling machines when I first purchased them. Computer and control problems on top of the learning curve of the process itself let me down a very challenging learning curve. Eventually, I learned how to work around and/or fix the various issues but not before I broke a few things.

I think the mistake LPKF may be making is that they market the machine as a PCB printer where it appears to be in fact a delicate task requiring significant training and experience. Of course I should say I have zero actual experience with these machines. Only went through the pre-sale research.

[G0HZU]

There's a version history of LPKF Circuitcam SW here:

http://www.circuitcam.com/history

Although I don't have an LPKF machine here at home I reverse engineered part of the main exe file of CCam and modded it such that it would produce mill files supported by my old T-Tech machine. The LPKF SW is much better than T-Tech in this respect as it uses much better isolation algorithms. So I was determined to find a way to use this SW with my T-Tech machine at home. I'm still using version 4.0 of CCam so this dates right back to 2001 when I must have bought the T-Tech 7000S machine. However, CCam can't actually control my mill. I just use it to generate isolation files.

This is the same version of CCam we used with the LPKF C30S when it was new. I'm not sure what version we are using today at work but it could still be V4.0.

Because my T-Tech 7000S is an old (ish) model it wasn't supported by the T-Tech/Isopro milling SW and therefore I started out having to use some pretty hideous DOS SW from T-Tech to drive it. So around the same time I hacked about with CCam I reverse engineered the (then) current Isopro SW and worked out how to modify the exe file to add milling support for my older machine. Without this the SW would just crash every time it tried to control the motor because it sent commands my controller didn't support.

I've been using these modified versions ever since and they have been flawless. Note: There are known bugs in the old versions of isopro SW (especially wrt the rubout algorithms) but I don't use this part of the SW. There are control bugs too but I know how to workaround them and avoid problems.

[mrpackethead]

It looks like you were let down by poorly trained reps. Considering what these things cost new I'm surprised they didn't supply you with a known working PC to resolve the issue. But even then, it may fail again if the PC OS gets updated.

In deed. Poor reps, but I was also direclty working with teh engineers in Germany. They coudnt resolve it.  Two differnet machiens, built exactly to their specs, o/s versions and patches.   Nothing else running on the machine.

[free_electron]

this was not a rep... this was their main application engineer. he got flown in specifically for 3 days to come and set the machine up properly ... zilch.

they always had an excuse. it was the pc's serial port. it was this, it was unstable power supply ( we ran off a hulking big UPS ).
they swapped the electronics box twice and shipped new eproms once. it once even ground its spindle to pieces.

like i said : these machines are like the cheapo 3d printers : you spend more time futzing with the machine than producing things with it. it may work for some small proto's when babysat by someone.

at the price you can get boards in china these days ... for 40K$ i can get a LOT of boards from iteadstudio or PCBway at layerstacks and resolutions these machines can not handle. they have outlived there usability . the world has moved on.

[nctnico]

this was not a rep... this was their main application engineer. he got flown in specifically for 3 days to come and set the machine up properly ... zilch.

they always had an excuse. it was the pc's serial port. it was this, it was unstable power supply ( we ran off a hulking big UPS ).
they swapped the electronics box twice and shipped new eproms once. it once even ground its spindle to pieces.

Perhaps they didn't had it tested for EMC compliance. Such tests can reveal all kinds of hidden features of circuits causing all kinds of mayhem. If every machine would behave like you described it they would have been out of business years ago.

[free_electron]

could very well be. anyway. after spending 40K$ and havving nothing but trouble : i am not touching those machines EVER again. there is no convincing me that this stuff works right. it may work for little things but it is too much of a hassle. machinery needs to be fire and forget. the idea is to gain time , not have to babysit it ( same reason i don't like those hobby 3d printers. )

[rx8pilot]

$40k is no joke. The story coming out is tough to hear, I feel lucky that I did not get so far.

The crazy thing is that they are a tough justification even if they worked perfectly and were very easy. It does not take much trouble to blow the idea out of the water.

[IconicPCB]

"... the idea is to gain time , not have to babysit it..."

Quite so. That is why quick turn prototypes are required. Keep high cost crew ( engineers ) productive in development and low cost crew ( support technicians ) in support manufacturing prototype PCBs.

[tonyarkles]

This may be me whinging a little bit, but the most amazing thing in the world for me would being able to get prototype boards at a reasonable price at about the same speed Digikey can get parts to my house.

I mean, having to work out a schedule for various projects (schematic for project A, layout for project A, order boards for A, schematic B, layout B, order boards B, receive boards A, test boards A, schematic C...) isn't the worst thing in the world, the context switch is a bit painful.

But... cost-wise, I don't yet have enough projects going through to justify the cost (both training and equipment-wise). The boards from seeed come fast enough and are cheap enough.

As a curiosity, has anyone tried the Othermill for doing prototype boards?

[mrpackethead]

This may be me whinging a little bit, but the most amazing thing in the world for me would being able to get prototype boards at a reasonable price at about the same speed Digikey can get parts to my house.

I mean, having to work out a schedule for various projects (schematic for project A, layout for project A, order boards for A, schematic B, layout B, order boards B, receive boards A, test boards A, schematic C...) isn't the worst thing in the world, the context switch is a bit painful.

But... cost-wise, I don't yet have enough projects going through to justify the cost (both training and equipment-wise). The boards from seeed come fast enough and are cheap enough.

As a curiosity, has anyone tried the Othermill for doing prototype boards?

Just stop. milling pcbs will just create you time delays and fustration.

[FabLabMaster]

  My own pursuit of a good PCB router lead me to this post. I've had an LPKF S63 for about 5 years now. The joke here at work is "it works great... when it's working". During the 5 years, I've had to send the milling head back 4 times. Each of those times was due to "manufacturing and/or design flaws" and each time, the machine was down for several weeks including the week of troubleshooting and dealing with their tech support. This does not go over well with my superiors. Also, the machine is "dumb" and can damage itself if an error occurs and you're not right there to babysit and, trust me, there are plenty of errors to go around and plenty of expensive damage that can occur (I got this machine to free up time, not devote even more time to PCB production and machine troubleshooting and repair). The software (CircuitPro) is not very user friendly and it's always being updated for bugs, etc. The software throws errors almost every usage and nowhere can you find info about the errors. I've stumped their tech support many times.
  I've learned many of the machine's quirks but, so many of these errors are unexplainable by me or LPKF tech support. I've been looking into Accurate CNC for a replacement as the ROI on the S63 has been satisfied. I want a machine that is smarter with less downtime and software that makes more sense and is less quirky. LPKF sold me on their machines ease of use telling me that high school kids were setting these machines up and cutting PCBs in a day. That didn't happen for me as they shipped me a machine that had not been calibrated and was missing the vacuum table I bought. Took me over a week (with tech support) to figure out why the machine was not working correctly. Tech support had to guide me by phone through the entire factory calibration process to get it working (they are in OR and I am in NY which leaves a 5 hour window, when they finally get back to you). Like I said earlier, the machine works great... when it's working. But, you just never know when the next error or tool change collision will happen or why. I'm looking at AccurateCNC now.
Best of luck to you whichever way you decide to go.

[BMF]

I've used LPKF mills (c30 -s100) for about 15 years. I've had very good luck with them and I respect the company. I would caution that the economics of making boards in house is not what it was 15 years ago. They are very good for low volume simple boards like adapters and antennas but complex boards can be very costly. If have made single boards that cost $150 in tooling. Tooling costs, design limitations, operator skill requirements, and unique design for manufacture issues are serious limitations. I now send out most of my boards for fab. I'm probably not going to replace the machines if they ever wear out. If you choose to buy a machine be aware that the software is very important. LPKF and MITS are good machines from what I know. LPKF software is very good. I have no knowledge about MITS software. You'll want a dedicated PC, sound proof enclosure, quality substrates and tooling, a rivet system like EasyContac, a tool to set ring depth, inspection microscope with reticle scale, and an extra hose for the hepa vac to do cleanup.   If you want to bump things up a level you can do hole plating and masks but be prepared for additional labor. The economics don't justify those steps for me. A second issue is design flow. If you are designing your board based on prototyping equipment and not production equipment you are not in a direct path. ANY edit to a pcb design has risk. I like to avoid that design shift risk whenever possible. On the other hand the machines are really nice for making PCB mockups to mount connectors and controls to verify the locations for mechanical fit tests. There are also handy for building test jigs.   

[mrpackethead]

I've used LPKF mills (c30 -s100) for about 15 years. I've had very good luck with them and I respect the company. I would caution that the economics of making boards in house is not what it was 15 years ago. They are very good for low volume simple boards like adapters and antennas but complex boards can be very costly. If have made single boards that cost $150 in tooling. Tooling costs, design limitations, operator skill requirements, and unique design for manufacture issues are serious limitations. I now send out most of my boards for fab. I'm probably not going to replace the machines if they ever wear out. If you choose to buy a machine be aware that the software is very important. LPKF and MITS are good machines from what I know. LPKF software is very good.

The software that LPKF supplied me was so good that after spending 3 hours milling it went and milled a 45 degree line right across my board.  Wonderful. rendering it useless.  It was so good that peridically it would drive tools way too deep.

My experience of LPKF was absolutely hiddious. 

[mikeselectricstuff]

On the other hand the machines are really nice for making PCB mockups to mount connectors and controls to verify the locations for mechanical fit tests. There are also handy for building test jigs.

I have a cheap Chinese 3040 router which is also pretty good for drilling jigs and doing outlines. In principle it may be feasible to rout PCBs on it but I don't have the patience to tweak it.
That being said the PCB results I've seen Micah Scott get on an Othermill have been surprisingly impressive.
 

[BMF]

[/quote]

The software that LPKF supplied me was so good that after spending 3 hours milling it went and milled a 45 degree line right across my board.  Wonderful. rendering it useless.  It was so good that peridically it would drive tools way too deep.

My experience of LPKF was absolutely hiddious.
[/quote]

I had a similar crash once on the c30. The second time I ran to board I had no problem. I used the same file so I assume the data was good but somehow the PC to machine communication corrupted the data. It could have be a weird corruption in the machine. I haven't had that issue on the s100. My biggest complaint is in managing tool wear. I find it best to start complex boards with new cutters and endmils. I don't like second passes at a phase because the machine head does not track as well on the air cushion. I save the used tools for small boards. It is difficult keeping track on tool life. I usually just use a microscope to read the tool life.   

[technotronix]

What about Prometheus Desktop PCB Mill? Check more from here. http://makezine.com/2015/11/16/first-look-prometheus-desktop-pcb-mill/

[G0HZU]

I've used LPKF mills (c30 -s100) for about 15 years. I've had very good luck with them and I respect the company. I would caution that the economics of making boards in house is not what it was 15 years ago. They are very good for low volume simple boards like adapters and antennas but complex boards can be very costly.

Yes, that's my view too. At work the PCB mill has always been a highly valued piece of equipment by our RF team because you can try out various RF filter/oscillator/switch concepts and do several iterations in one day on various exotic RF PCB laminates.

I suspect that the naysayers on here who think these machines are a waste of time will still not understand what I'm talking about. If I was in the business of making two layer digital boards on FR4, eg microcontrollers, CPLDs etc then I would use the mill a lot less and I'd just order a PCB from a PCB company. But to approach a PCB company to do several iterations of a critical RF filter design on an expensive PCB material would be crazy in terms of cost and timescale (and frustration at all the waiting around for the next version of the dev board to arrive).

Also, the mill can be a great tool to have if you want to make a little piggy/bandaid PCB to diagnose/fix an issue on an existing PCB. This doesn't have to be an RF PCB, it could be a mini piggy PCB on a digital board. The time taken from spotting a problem to producing a PCB design and mill it and build it and test it and prove it can be less than a day.

[nctnico]

For small non-critical boards you need quick it is probably easier & cheaper to just etch the PCB and I don't mean messing around with household chemical in an old jar but a decent professional setup. For RF however milling is the only option I know to get a good enough accuracy.

[G0HZU]

Agreed but the mill can also make the little piggy PCBs with custom PCB outlines. Eg L shaped or with round or square inner access holes. It will rout any PCB outline you want within reason to fit inside a tight space. If you went down the etching route you could cut the shape by hand with a saw but it would be very fiddly to do. They are great for making quick and dirty FR4 test jig PCBs or laminated tools as well but only if you are in a hurry. Usually it's much better to get a real test jig PCB made with FR4 with silk screen etc.

[edavid]

What about Prometheus Desktop PCB Mill? Check more from here. http://makezine.com/2015/11/16/first-look-prometheus-desktop-pcb-mill/

What about it?  It's been over a year since that article, and it still hasn't shipped 

[mrpackethead]

Also, the mill can be a great tool to have if you want to make a little piggy/bandaid PCB to diagnose/fix an issue on an existing PCB. This doesn't have to be an RF PCB, it could be a mini piggy PCB on a digital board. The time taken from spotting a problem to producing a PCB design and mill it and build it and test it and prove it can be less than a day.

Agreed. If it worked.  Sadly the LPKF stuff never worked. The Support was atrorious.   Left a very bad taste in my mouth.

[G0HZU]

Also, the mill can be a great tool to have if you want to make a little piggy/bandaid PCB to diagnose/fix an issue on an existing PCB. This doesn't have to be an RF PCB, it could be a mini piggy PCB on a digital board. The time taken from spotting a problem to producing a PCB design and mill it and build it and test it and prove it can be less than a day.

Agreed. If it worked.  Sadly the LPKF stuff never worked. The Support was atrorious.   Left a very bad taste in my mouth.

I think some of the issues with the newer/better? machines may be that LPKF are trying to make the machine into a PCB vending machine rather than something that relies on operator skill. So instead of having an experienced operator setting up the equipment for registration or tool depth using manual (slow) methods they have tried to automate it all on the newer machines. Add to this the buggy nature of modern PCs and operating systems and it must be harder to get it all to behave perfectly for an hour or more.

I'm still using Win 98SE on my T-Tech machine here at home and everything is manual. I have to fit each tool by hand and adjust the tool height using a vernier and test it in a spare area before running that isolation layer. Registration is done using pins/holes in the PCB rather than the modern optical system and the vacuum table. This requires a lot of experience and sympathy and skill but it does give good results. Those new automated machines look like luxury to me by comparison

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think some of the issues with the newer/better? machines may be that LPKF are trying to make the machine into a PCB vending machine rather than something that relies on operator skill. So instead of having an experienced operator setting up the equipment for registration or tool depth using manual (slow) methods they have tried to automate it all on the newer machines. Add to this the buggy nature of modern PCs and operating systems and it must be harder to get it all to behave perfectly for an hour or more.

MCUs these days are so cheap that to make a machine like that that doesn't do it all standalone is insane. cf. 3D Printers.

[tpowell1830]

hmm, with that kind of budget should you consider green tape?   

PEACE===>T

[scopeman]

I personally own two older LPKF machines that I picked up on the surplus market a 91s and a 92s. They needed a fair amount of TLC to get going. They aren't perfect but make pretty good boards.

I use standard FR4 and Chinese TiN coated 60 degree 0.1 or 0.2mm "V" bits (I have my own method of setting the initial depth as they are shorter than the LPKF) and 1mm end mills for mass copper removal and either 1mm, 1.5mm or 2mm for contour and/or inside cuts. The quality of the TiN coated Chinese bits vary widely so it took a while to find good ones.

I have a few "real" LPKF bits and routers but are reserving those for a critical job. I think that the PreciseBits brand are very good. There may be other brands as well.

Thus far I have made a few dozen boards with it from 0.031 and 0.0625 FR4. My local PCB supplier let me go thru the scrap bin and also sold me 30 3 foot X 4 foot sheets of CEM1 for five bucks a sheet so I have a lifetime supply.

I get fairly good results and have made PCB's with parts as fine as 0.020 pitch. Standard 0.050 is easy. Lines to 8 mils are not a big deal and I have done 6 with the 92s.

I even did a test board with traces as narrow as 2 mils but I would not recommend it!

I designed and had made a special T-Square to align the machine so that both sides would line up properly on double sided boards. A bit tricky to do but worth the effort.

And G0HZU is right. It takes real attention to detail to get the desired results. I wrecked a few boards and it took a while to get the hang of it but thus far I am happy with it.

Thus far (unlike the original owner of my 91s) I have not plowed the mill or universal cutter into the machine bed.

I really like the ability to design in the morning and have a proto ready by the afternoon. I know you can do this with the chemical method (been there, done that) but if I need that level of attention the board design will go out of house.

What I really like the machine for is for one of a kind boards like those used for test fixtures, card extenders, mechanical placement fixtures, test probe (spring pin) boards, small front panels made from FR4 (or even engraved plastic or aluminum panels).

With all that said I think I would take a serious look at the AccurateCNC product. They look like they are a bit more polished than my LPKF's (and a couple of decades newer).
In all fairness I do not have any experience with the newer LPKF machines. They may be easier to use but I am sure that I would be locked into their tooling and expendables which would be quite expensive for hobby/ham or occasional use.
 
If you are using these machines for commercial use you probably should figure in a budget for board material and tools from the machine manufacturer as this will keep the "finger pointing" to a minimum.

Now for the options: Microscope, Fiducal recognition camera, etc... Like buying a car (and you can buy a really nice one for the cost of these machines new!).

Best of luck,

Scopeman

P.S. I would not expect to make other than single or double-sided boards with these machines. The multi-layer process is way too complex with too many pitfalls, so unless
you are making boards for a spook government project sending the gerbers out is your best bet.

[johnyradio]

As a curiosity, has anyone tried the Othermill for doing prototype boards?

Yes. And, although there was some fiddling to get all settings correct (first board not good), my second board was sweet. I could see the need for improvements in the hardware and software, but that was 2 years ago. i'm sure they've improved. My board was a simple thru-hole board, so i can't vouch for a dense board with SMD parts.



True that mail-order PCB fab is absurdly cheap these days. Def the way to go for production runs.

But if, like me, you want to use fresh PCB's as part of your design and development process, you want to do quick prototyping at home. Then messing with Ferric Chloride can get old.

Old timers here are, i'm sure, accurate in their descriptions of bad experiences with older machines.

But i think quick one-off prototyping is a real niche, and a new generation of companies are filling that need. I think these co's understand that people want convenient, tidy, user-friendly hardware and software. The OtherMill (now named Bantam) is cute and sits on your desktop.

Another one:

- allows you to work with milling tools down to 0.178mm (7 thousands of an inch, aka 7 mil).
- makes real circuit boards in minutes.
- any surface mount component.
- High spindle speed lets you mill a 3?×5? board in minutes
- Price point is thousands less than machines of similar accuracy.
- hard to argue with their video. https://youtu.be/Tp81Aneil24
- $1,800.
https://makezine.com/2015/11/16/first-look-prometheus-desktop-pcb-mill/

Unfortunately, as noted above, the prometheus has not started shipping yet. The co just emailed me, says "slowly" shipping first batch now, short lead-times hoped for Feb '18.

OtherMill/Bantam has been shipping for a couple years now.

Another option:
- shipping now
- plus paste applicator
- plus pick-and-place
- €2,000.00 (2,000 Euros = ~ $2,400 USD)
https://youtu.be/VWi9GUzY1fY
https://cirqoid.com/

[lectrohamlincoln]

Hi Scopeman,

I was hoping you could elaborate a bit more on your Protomat setup (drill height setting and double sided registration). I picked up an old Protomat 93s and have had pretty good success milling singled sided boards with a 0.015" end mill. I've found it difficult to set the tool depth correctly and I haven't had any luck with "V" bits. Sadly, this setup does not currently allow me to mill boards with QFN 0.5mm pitch. My Protomat did not come with the alignment strip so I haven't tried double sided boards yet either.

Also Scopeman or G0HZU, how do you calculate the feeds/speed for "V" bit and micro end mills?

In case anyone was wondering, I've had no problems running the Protomat 93s from a modern Windows 10 laptop with a usb->serial adapter. I use Kicad to generate the GERBERs, LPKF CircuitPro PM 2.3 to generate the isolation paths, and BoardMaster 5.1.214 to control it. 

[scopeman]

My ramblings on the LPKF:

On the Protomat settings.

The drill height setting is limited by the mechanics. I check this by installing a 38mm (standard length, verify with a caliper) drill, set the depth limiter all the way to the top, and move the drill head over the platen (Drill motor off!, you don't want to drill the table) and watch as you manually press the motor down. The tip of the drill must clear the platen (table surface) by 0.5mm. You can use a feeler gauge or a piece of brass stock to verify this. If you have to adjust the motor height there is a locknut on the top of the assembly that allows you to adjust this.

Normally when drilling the depth limiter is set all the way to the top. When I am processing thin material I sometimes set the depth limiter so that it will limit the penetration.The smallest drill I have been able to use with my unit is 0.45mm (#77 IIRC). My units have the 20K RPM fixed speed spindle so I am limited as to the drill speed and sizes I can use.

Make sure that you first run the "Marking Drills" run as the first cut after milling cutter (V bit) milling cutter setup. This will insure that the drills will drill properly centered. I have my BoardMaster set to use the same cutter that I use for milling both sides. Since this is a quick process it does not detract from the life of the cutter very much, and there is no need to change tools.

Milling setup

I set the milling depth by running the depth limiter down (while in the tool change position) so that the tool bit tip is not exposed. Then I use a 1 inch square or scrap of PCB board held tight against the bottom of the depth limiter and I loosen the allen screw to allow the tool to drop onto the 1 inch square Cu. This sets the tip of the tool even with the edge of the depth limiter. This works really well with 60 degree TiN coated chinese tools as the length is not the same as the LPKF tools. I then rotate the ring on the depth limiter 8 clicks (1mil) and make a test cut and check it with a microscope. I then move a click at a time until I get a depth that gets me 0.1mm width cuts.

The trick with the depth setting is to make sure that you are only removing the copper and not cutting into the FR4 (if so only a fraction of a mil, a click or so). FR4 dulls the milling tools. If the tool acts like it is plowing rather than producing smooth cuts, chances are that you are cutting too deep. Once a bit has been run in this condition it is usually toast and will never cut a fine burr free line. I suspect that could be the issue with you Chinese tools. You should be able to slide your finger over the cut line, it should feel smooth. Inspect it with a microscope. Taylor Tools has some nice inexpensive pocket ones on eBay.

I always clean the PCB material after it is taped down with a white (very fine) Scotchbrite(R) pad first and vacuum away any dust and then wipe the board down.

I have also used 3-in-One dry lube (coat the side and remove all excess with a cotton ball or better yet a microfiber cloth, Harbor Freight or WalMart) for some stubborn FR4 material. I use the dry-lube as it will not collect chips. I use the same dry lube on the depth limiter threads and on the linear bearing rods.

It goes without saying that you will need to run a vacuum anytime the spindle is cutting as chaff from the process will get in the way of producing a good board.

I do my boards out of the normal sequence in that I mill one side then I flip and mill the opposite side so that I do not have to reset the depth setting or change the tool. I also start with a fresh tool so that I won't have to change one mid project.

When I mill I will do a few test milling of an area to confirm my depth setting as sometimes it may take a click or two more to get consistent results. Depending on how your drilling data is set up you may have to flip the board a last time to drill and route.

Pay attention to the colors on the screen to make sure that you are drilling/routing the right side! Mark the panel with a sharpie as to the side you are working on. Also when you start and when you flip make sure that the red strip is tight against the reference pin in the slot in the table.

You will also have to do the machine home setup to make sure that when you flip the board and drill that the holes will line up. This is all in the manual. Probably the most tedious setup of the unit. Really critical for small via hole front to back alignment.

Now with all of this being said, most of the time I use milled boards for one off protos or boards for test fixtures or mechanical setups. I once made some internal guide plate parts for locks for a friend out of FR4 and some huge FR4 fender washers for my shower to keep the inside rail from cracking through the plastic wall. They will never rust and I can have an infinite supply. The machine is very accurate for milled routed cuts so you can easily make things like solder together RF tight boxes out of double sided FR4.

If I need any quantity of complex PCB's it is cheaper to go to PCBWAY or a similar source unless you absolutely
must have something that day as you will spend the greater part of a day knocking out that PCB. This is especially true if you do not run the machine on a frequent basis as it is easy to make an error or omit a step.

Sam
W3OHM