Author Topic: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?  (Read 21563 times)

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Offline diracshoreTopic starter

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Hi all,

What is the most capable CAD suite for PCB design ? Regardless of cost and learning curve.

 

Offline sacherjj

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2012, 12:01:27 am »
The answer is most likely going to be a package that is more expensive than most people's cars.  Few people are going to answer what is best of those, as most have to use more reasonably priced packages.

I can't justify more that a couple hundred dollars.  DIPTrace has the least limitations in free use and reasonable upgrade costs.  The board size limitation on Eagle is a killer and the software isn't worth the money they are charging to remove that.  I won't pay that much to use a crappy 1980's UI.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:04:33 am by sacherjj »
 

Offline harnon

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2012, 12:17:30 am »
The answer is most likely going to be a package that is more expensive than most people's cars.  Few people are going to answer what is best of those, as most have to use more reasonably priced packages.

Yeah, having only used Kicad, Eagle and Diptrace, I would have to say Diptrace.  It has some annoyances but overall its pretty good and easy to use.  Some of the more high end products may be better but until I win Euromillions I'll never know :D
 

Offline westfw

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2012, 12:41:25 am »
The "better" CAD packages have so many features that their learning curve is very steep.

I don't know that many people get to make this sort of decision.  If you're a small company, you end up using what you can afford.  If you're (part of) a large company, you end up using something that was picked by someone else.  You MIGHT get to voice some opinions if you happen to be somewhere during a transition; the company has clearly outgrown their current system and needs to upgrade to something else.  But I suspect that "careful evaluation and comparison of several $10k CAD packages" is a rare occurrence.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2012, 01:00:13 am »
But I suspect that "careful evaluation and comparison of several $10k CAD packages" is a rare occurrence.

Actually, it's more common than you'd think.
When I was at Altium, it was quite common to hear about companies doing thorough evaluations on the top tier packages. Because they might generally be looking at kitting out entire departments or the whole company with the software etc, so it's going to be a very big expense for them. So you might end up with an evaluation committee and countless reports and comparisons before a decision is made. Would be awesome if companies made those comparison reports available!

Dave.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2012, 03:30:14 am »
has anyone compared which is better diptrace or autotrax? autotrax showed nice 3d render in their site (a hype or truth?) but i wont bother installing (need net4 and sp3) unless someone said its better than diptrace.

http://kov.com/Download/DEX.aspx
http://www.diptrace.com/download.php
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline kaz911

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2012, 07:37:56 am »
if you look at the AutoTrax yahoo group - it seems like interest have fallen sharply (or it is so great no one needs any support) ..

But I do not know how great it is....
 

Offline updatelee

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2012, 10:55:32 am »
Im currently using diptrace and wish I learned of it earlier, so much simpler and intuitive then eagle.
 

Offline diracshoreTopic starter

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 04:11:59 am »
How about Altium Designer 10 ? That looks pretty sweet. Does anyone have experiences, opinions ?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 04:24:18 am »
How about Altium Designer 10 ? That looks pretty sweet. Does anyone have experiences, opinions ?

I used to work at Altium, and have used it for 20 years.
The new AD10 software is pretty good, but can be unstable/buggy depending upon your machine configuration.
And no bug fixes unless you pay for yearly subscription/maintenance.

Altiums big problem is that it tries to do too much, so doesn't do much of anything really well these days.
But the core PCB/SCH functionality is quite usable and works well enough. It is hopeless at simulation and signal integrity, and while it's embedded/FPGA stuff is novel and appears attractive at first glance, it's no good for anything serious. The new Vault library system will likely drive you nuts.
Support is now questionable given who few good employees are left after the move to China.
You have pay for all the features you won't need, it's all or nothing.

Dave.
 

Offline ChrisW

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 04:45:43 am »
I am slowly getting used to Eagle. It has a lot bigger community than Diptrace, unfortunately.
 

Offline sacherjj

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 04:59:33 am »
I am slowly getting used to Eagle. It has a lot bigger community than Diptrace, unfortunately.

I think the tide is shifting.  I've only made board through to production with Eagle, but I don't plan on laying out another board in it.
 

Offline diracshoreTopic starter

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2012, 07:02:21 am »
Thanks Dave,
 
What would you say is the best competing suite for designing and simulating boards with FPGAs,

Cadence, Cadstar, Expedition or something else ?

For designing enclosures for my products what is the most capable CAD I can invest my time in, again disregarding cost and learning curve ?

Thom
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2012, 07:14:26 am »
Thanks Dave,
 
What would you say is the best competing suite for designing and simulating boards with FPGAs,

The vendor tools are ultimately the best, and most are free.
Altium was a just wrapper around the vendor tools anyway.
Cadence, Cadstar, Expedition or something else ?
If you want to simulate high speed FPGA stuff at the board level, e.g. DDR3 or something, then Atium is next to useless, and your Cadences et.al are a better bet.

Quote
For designing enclosures for my products what is the most capable CAD I can invest my time in, again disregarding cost and learning curve ?

One of Altiums strengths is it's 3D capability and mechanical integration, and it can do mechanical design rule checking too. i.e. does that connector fit through the hole in my panel etc.
Not sure how the other packages compare in that respect, but I doubt you can beat Altium for the price for that.
They have demo videos showing off this, and it does mostly work.
Sadly though they haven't focussed on refining the practical stuff like 3D stuff off in recent times, their heads have been in the clouds, literally.

Dave.
 

Offline harnon

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2012, 07:46:53 am »
I am slowly getting used to Eagle. It has a lot bigger community than Diptrace, unfortunately.

I think the tide is shifting.  I've only made board through to production with Eagle, but I don't plan on laying out another board in it.

I think the biggest issue is still eagle being the defacto standard for open source schematics. I have eagle on my computer just to open up schematics from the web!

As far as community, yeah it's still much smaller, but honestly its so straight forward to use I haven't really had to rely on the community. Making libraries is dead simple and The manual is pretty good. Novarm have some simple tutorials on youtube and I've made a tutorial (in the dip trace forum section) around creating libraries and I'm thinking of making another one about hierarchical blocks
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2012, 01:55:38 pm »

For designing enclosures for my products what is the most capable CAD I can invest my time in, again disregarding cost and learning curve ?

Thom

I have used Solidworks since its beginning. I can highly recomend it as extremely capable for any level of 3D Cad work. There are also add ons for 3D cable routing in electronic assemblies.  They are very customer focused and add hundreds of customer driven enhancements each rev.

Offline Iliya

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2014, 01:28:32 pm »
if you look at the AutoTrax yahoo group - it seems like interest have fallen sharply (or it is so great no one needs any support) ..

But I do not know how great it is....

The user forum has always been active. See the stats in https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Autotrax/info
You could compare to Diptrace https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/diptr/info

AutoTRAX https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Autotrax/info user group has 2969 users and 29 posts in the last week.
However I have now created a new forum at http://forum.kov.com/ This is a lot easier to use and no ads :) Comes with pictures and videos...

Regards
Iliya Kovac
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2014, 02:14:29 pm »
There's still people using that ? Wow. That dates back from the dos days.
i did many a board wit that. version 1.61. came on two floppies.
Very distant ancester of Altium
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Iliya

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2014, 03:24:13 pm »
There's still people using that ? Wow. That dates back from the dos days.
i did many a board wit that. version 1.61. came on two floppies.
Very distant ancester of Altium

Sorry, but AutoTRAX DEX has nothing to do with the defunct Autotrax (DOS) from Protel (now Altium)
Protel never registered the Autotrax trade mark and many years ago abandoned it.
I took out the US trademark 17th. July, 2001 Reg No 2,469,410.
Altium then got brassed out and decided to dump their Autotrax on their web site. Why? Spite? Or to cannibalize their sales of Altium  :palm:

Download Altium Autotrax from http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ALEG/Legacy+Downloads
Dowload AutoTRAX DEX from http://www.kov.com/download
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2014, 01:38:15 am »
Altium then got brassed out

To be expected.

As I've written in the Altium threads a few times, many of us use Altium as it is quite powerful & has become a de facto standard for many medium & large corporations. However many of us actually dislike the software (it has many, many areas that could/need to be improved) & many of us dislike Altium the Company.

Even Dave (who worked for Altium) has voiced his views in these threads relating to where Altium went wrong & what they should concentrate on to improve their software.

We all hoped that things would improve a lot when the founder CEO Nick Martin was booted from the board. I actually believe that things have improved since his departure, just that the improvements have been too little, too late.

I have also noted that the code was well written (as it not bloated) in version 6.9, however using AD14 I note that the code has become much more bloated. Looking at the few new features that have been added, I believe that the code has become more bloated (& subsequently runs much slower) mainly due to poor programming.

The move to China was not a good decision. Hopefully the recent decision to move (back) to the USA will go a long way to improving Altium's coding skills.
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline miguelvp

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2014, 01:49:25 am »
If money is no object then Cadence Allegro with all the bells and whistles, but it will cost you as much as a full time engineer for a whole year. I've seen it but have not used it myself, but I saw our engineers in a previous job do thermal analysis, stress analysis and all kinds of analysis using it. Of course it was at Uni so they probably got it for free or heavily discounted.

Not sure how it has evolved since then since this was 20 years ago. But seems like it's the only choice for high GHz range designs.

 

Offline Iliya

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2014, 03:01:10 pm »
Altium then got brassed out

To be expected.

As I've written in the Altium threads a few times, many of us use Altium as it is quite powerful & has become a de facto standard for many medium & large corporations. However many of us actually dislike the software (it has many, many areas that could/need to be improved) & many of us dislike Altium the Company.

Even Dave (who worked for Altium) has voiced his views in these threads relating to where Altium went wrong & what they should concentrate on to improve their software.

We all hoped that things would improve a lot when the founder CEO Nick Martin was booted from the board. I actually believe that things have improved since his departure, just that the improvements have been too little, too late.

I have also noted that the code was well written (as it not bloated) in version 6.9, however using AD14 I note that the code has become much more bloated. Looking at the few new features that have been added, I believe that the code has become more bloated (& subsequently runs much slower) mainly due to poor programming.

The move to China was not a good decision. Hopefully the recent decision to move (back) to the USA will go a long way to improving Altium's coding skills.

I have a belief that as software progresses eventually the 'technical debt' becomes so overwhelming that ‘critical mass’ is reached and it is almost impossible to add stuff without breaking it.

The first step on the road to the big bang is the initial development team jumping ship or what appears to be in Altium’s case, made to ‘walk the plank’.

So having a new team in a foreign country who speaks a different language can only make things worse.

This is when somebody comes up with the idea to re-write the software.

I must admit, that’s what I did when I went from AutoTRAX EDA, written in C++/MFC to AutoTRAX DEX, written in C#, C++, C++/CLI. However, I did this because I thought using C++/MFC was slowing things down and .NET offers huge advantages. Also EDA was designed in the classic schematic/pcb split program mode. I did this as I was learning the trade. But I soon realized that this split is all wrong, so I did some ‘blue sky’ thinking and came up with DEX. I unified data.

I have spent a lot of time designing and documenting DEX. Even though it’s just me I use Microsoft Team Foundation Server, Source Control and the Agile scrum method: but no daily stand-up meeting – I would look stupid standing by myself. I don’t want to reach ‘critical mass’.

The problem with writing a program that does it all for everyone is impossible. You need to pick a solution that fits your needs. It's no point buying a Ferrari to do the school run. Horses for courses.
So there really is no simple answer to 'If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be?'  You need to decide what you want to make and then pick the tool.

Having worked in 3D for the last 18 years, I see that all animation studios use many different tools. Each one fit for purpose. However in the 3D industry they do not have the obsessive secrecy for the file formats and working with other. Eagle is a rare exception in the PCB industry. The aim is to lock you in. (the Trojan horse - appears free at first but something comes out to bite ya later on ). DEX is open XML for all files.

I have not used Altium’s designer much but the brochures are large and glossy. The online videos seem more like video brochures than actual tutorials.

P.S. What is Nick Martin doing now; rewriting Altium?
 

Offline DerekG

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2014, 12:06:12 am »
P.S. What is Nick Martin doing now; rewriting Altium?

Unless you have some inside info that the rest of us don't know about, I believe he has just retired as a very wealthy (but bitter) old man.

(click on the above link to find out more)

We (me) actually thought that you were writing code for Altium's new product CircuitMaker. Their new ribbon menus look just like your's in AutoTRAX DEX 2020 :)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:11:20 am by DerekG »
I also sat between Elvis & Bigfoot on the UFO.
 

Offline Iliya

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2014, 08:49:49 pm »
Went to the CircuitMaker, looks like they are going to canabalize Altium Designer sales.
http://circuitmaker.com/

Says its free.
Went though several pages of sales stuff (Well that's Altium) filled in download details and see this

?   Free to start, and extendable through purchased enhancements, so you can expand the software as your designs become more complex and challenging.

Then get this is the email...

Welcome to the CircuitMaker community! By registering and showing your support, we can keep this thing moving in the right direction and bring you the best tool we can, as fast as possible.
Right now, CircuitMaker is in closed beta. Signing up puts you in the group of potential testers for our closed beta. You’ll be notified when you’re chosen to participate.

This is what I think... http://kov.com/Info/Cancun

Free, but no free!

Why do they feel a need to write yet another program? They have trashed several. In closed Beta! Maybe not ready for Christmas  :(


 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: If you could only use one CAD suite for PCB design, what would it be ?
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2014, 09:34:54 pm »
What is the most capable CAD suite for PCB design ? Regardless of cost and learning curve.

That's an unrealistic question. The really large and capable packages have learning curves measured in months, benefit from dedicated admin/support staff, and cost more than you earn.

What is right for a 10-layer mixed RF/analogue + 10Gb/s digital board isn't right for a hobbyist.

For example, by "really capable" I would expect that in the schematic I could annotate "this track is 50ohms, no vias, stubs less than 5mm", and the layout engine would enforce those constraints.

There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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