Mentor PADS Maker and Maker Pro

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Digikey just sent me an announcement about Mentor PADS Maker Edition. It's free and will let you go up to 1,500 connections on the schematic. Layout is limited to 25 square inches and 6 layers (4 with signals). The "Pro" version is $499 and it eliminates the connection restriction. It takes you up to 50 square inches and 8 layers (6 with signals). The $499 gets you a "perpetual" license and 1 year of support. The license includes "minor upgrades". The "free" version is technically a one year license. You are stuck if they discontinue the free tier a year from now. Is free a come on to get you to move up to the $499 Pro a year from now? Only time will tell. I'd bet not, but I've been wrong a lot of times before.

The software you get is NOT the full blown PADS. It does not include auto routing (which I hate). It does include schematic, BOM, and simulation. It also ties into the Digikey empire for parts symbols and information. Without sitting down with a full license version and the free version, I suspect it will be a bit tough to really know what you do or do not get in the Maker versions. I doubt that auto routing is the only thing they took out. So far the free one seems to offer a lot of bang for the buck. It will depend on just how they count the 1,500 connection limit (do redundant via's count (hopefully not)....do wires connect at both ends (probably) ....). As long as they are not stupid about it you should be able to get a couple BGA's on a board.

Off to dive into it. Fell free to chime in with "thoughts". I'm sure there will be a wide variety of opinions !!! I have no connection with either Digikey or Mentor other than as a customer. I've been pretty happy with Digikey over the years and have sort of a love / hate relation with Mentor's PCB layout products.

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

This from the other thread comments...

You can import schematics and symbols from a third party tool. Files can be imported from the following software versions:
Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6
P-CAD 200x
CADStar V5–V9
OrCAD 7.2–16.6
Eagle 6.0 or greater
and
You can import PCB files from third party tools by using the Import Translator (File > Import, then select the relevant software) in PADS Maker Layout. Files can be imported from the following software versions:
Altium Protel 99, DXP, 2004, 2006, AD6
P-CAD 200x
CADStar V5–V9
OrCAD Board Files 7.2–16.2
{ no mention of eagle PCB paths yet ?}

Update: Another page has this detail..
Someone in Mentor has messed up and their statements contradict, and cannot both be true.

Their wiki has this confused/mangled English quote
https://eewiki.net/display/MentorGraphicsDocumentation/PADS+Maker+FAQ#

"What happens when my license subscription runs out?
Student and Maker versions run out after 1 year. You may go back to Digi-Key to purchase the Maker Pro license (http://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=mentor%20graphics). Check back with Digi-Key and Mentor Graphics to see if licenses are available."

Their Press release however, claims this :
PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license.

Anyone know for sure which statement is true ? That  "see if licenses are available", sure sounds like a lot of fish-hooks and risk exposure.. ?
Hopefully, the press release was more proof read than the wiki ?

Other issues : I know IC vendors who use PADS, who would be interested in publishing their Eval Boards in PADS Maker form.

Oops, Mentor explicitly block that pathway as PADS Maker cannot read a Full PADS design, and no mention of PADS being able to export to PADS Maker.

Such are the issues when Corporate's try to be too clever over turf protection, the end result is silliness like having to go via a competitors package, to move between two Mentor ones !!

[PCB.Wiz]

.. It will depend on just how they count the 1,500 connection limit (do redundant via's count (hopefully not)....do wires connect at both ends (probably) ....).

Connections usually mean each rats-nest, aka each pin-pair.
Two pins connected is one pin pair, and a chain of 4 pins, is 3 pin pairs.
Vias are not counted.

The (first?) download in 497MB, I'll try it...

[uncle_bob]

.. It will depend on just how they count the 1,500 connection limit (do redundant via's count (hopefully not)....do wires connect at both ends (probably) ....).

Connections usually mean each rats-nest, aka each pin-pair.
Two pins connected is one pin pair, and a chain of 4 pins, is 3 pin pairs.
Vias are not counted.

The (first?) download in 497MB, I'll try it...

Hi

If they want to get "cute" they can count each connection to a net and include the connections to net zero (Mentor's no connect destination). All of a sudden 1500 connections is the same as 500 ....

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

If they want to get "cute" they can count each connection to a net and include the connections to net zero (Mentor's no connect destination). All of a sudden 1500 connections is the same as 500 ....

I've checked, and the above is correct - connections are rats-pin-pairs.

Below is an image of an example  PCB with 1659 connections (ie just too large in connections), and a 5x5" rectangle added.
Looks to me like most 4 routing layer designs will hit the 25 sq inches, before they hit 1500 pin pairs...

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I guess a lot of it comes down to just how many "hobby" users will be doing a bunch of 0.4 mm spacing BGA's with > 300 pads each. I'd guess not a lot of people. Of course if you get pedantic and put end termination resistors on both ends of every single connection, you can run the count up fast even without a bunch of parts. Again, how many hobby designs will be done that way? I'd bet you also can't do embedded parts in this version. Same question about hobby users ....

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

I'd bet you also can't do embedded parts in this version.

What do you mean by embedded users ?

[uncle_bob]

I'd bet you also can't do embedded parts in this version.

What do you mean by embedded users ?

Hi

In Expedition, (and I'd bet in PADS) you can put embedded resistors and capacitors inside the PCB it's self. It is a cute way to handle line terminations and bypassing on high density parts. It also is ghastly expensive to produce in small volumes.

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

The (first?) download in 497MB, I'll try it...

All downloaded and installed.... reasonably quick..

The software you get is NOT the full blown PADS. It does not include auto routing (which I hate). It does include schematic, BOM, and simulation. It also ties into the Digikey empire for parts symbols and information. Without sitting down with a full license version and the free version, I suspect it will be a bit tough to really know what you do or do not get in the Maker versions. I doubt that auto routing is the only thing they took out.

As always, the fine print matters, and yes, they have removed a LOT from PADS Full.

Starting simple, here is a limits report portion

Code: [Select]

JOB LIMITS REPORT -- preview_new.pcb
Item Type                        Items Used       Limit (if any)
Parts                                 28
Nets                                  60
Connections (w/o Plane Nets)          85             1500
Connections                          137
Route Segments                       754
...
Electrical Layers Count                4                6
Signal Layers Count                    2                4
Board Area (square inches)          5.48            25.00
So, the only limits are those in the right hand column, and a small bonus, is Plane Nets do not count.
The PCB example above, with 1659 total connection, has Connections  1092, when VDD,GND are removed, so it would comfortably fit into PADS Maker.

Back to what is missing:  Quite a lot is removed...

• Removed ASCII in/out, so you are stuck with a closed binary database, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.
• Removed DXF in/out, from both Design & Decal Editing, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.
• Removed Scripts, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.
• Full PADS  ECO has 18 Items, PADS Maker has just 3 - Removed are plenty like Add Part, Add Connection, Change Component.... 
• Removed ASCII Netlists - .dnf is now closed binary, in stark contrast with KiCAD or even Eagle.
• Removed ^C,^V from selected Component(s)

That's a lot of removed items, and with some basic things like DXF, you have to wonder why ??  Does anyone else not offer DXF ?


It seems counter to basic marketing, to label a Product PADS Maker, and then delete rafts of quite basic ability ?
Potential upgrade users will just think PADS has the same crippling limitations, only comes with an AutoRouter, & more layers & no Size limits...

ASCII NETLISTs/ECOs allowed a lot of version control and checking scope, as well as other tool flow merging.
With that gone, you can now only access the PADS layout portal, via PADS Maker Schematic.
DXF was vital for unusual footprint import, and mechanical control.

What is still there ?

It can still create PDF and it can ODB++ export, so it looks like the only pathway to Pick and Place, is some ODB++  add-on - which not everyone supports.

The DRP / SH commands are still there, so you can Shove traces, Smooth traces, and here it is (mostly) on a par with KiCAD.

Teardrops are still there, including curved teardrops - nice to have.

Summary : A lot of removed/closed doors, and now a closed, binary database everywhere, complete with a time-bomb license. Represents a high risk to any users.

[PCB.Wiz]

What do you mean by embedded users ?

In Expedition, (and I'd bet in PADS) you can put embedded resistors and capacitors inside the PCB it's self. It is a cute way to handle line terminations and bypassing on high density parts. It also is ghastly expensive to produce in small volumes.

Hmm, you mean multilayer PCBs, with SMD pads on inner layers and routed cutouts on outside layers, as needed ?
I doubt the PADS PADSTACK approach could manage that, tho some Flex PCBs must end up like that, where the Flex emerged as an inner-layer from some standard board.
In database terms, any parts on Flex, are on inner layers.

[ebclr]

Can this Mentor Maker do more than Altium http://circuitmaker.com/ ?

[PCB.Wiz]

e

Can this Mentor Maker do more than Altium http://circuitmaker.com/ ?

Seems they all have different caveats/gotchas... Mentor Maker has strict limits, but I think does avoid requiring internet or cloud connections.

The CM forum gives some clues where their problem lie..
https://circuitmaker.com/forum#forums/300007

and this from another thread..

I use circuitstudio daily, and looked at circuitmaker as a package to introduce some folks at our local hackerspace to.

If you completely ignore all the cloud aspects they're extremely similar with a change of colour.

However you can't ignore the cloud aspects. The biggest thing with the cloud in CM that turned me off is it only allows you to add components to your projects that have come from their server.  So there's no such thing as a local library of components.  When you create a component, you have to upload it to the community for anyone to use before you can even drop it on a schematic.

For me this is a complete debacle of a situation and has lead to the community being proliferated with useless, untested parts created by people who don't really know what they're doing.  I'm a big fan of OS, but there's no way I want to put out a symbol/footprint for a component before I've been able to build the prototype and know it's correct.

CS is basically the same software but has the same local storage (or use your own SVN) and library management as Altium Designer, which I personally like.

[uncle_bob]

What do you mean by embedded users ?

In Expedition, (and I'd bet in PADS) you can put embedded resistors and capacitors inside the PCB it's self. It is a cute way to handle line terminations and bypassing on high density parts. It also is ghastly expensive to produce in small volumes.

Hmm, you mean multilayer PCBs, with SMD pads on inner layers and routed cutouts on outside layers, as needed ?
I doubt the PADS PADSTACK approach could manage that, tho some Flex PCBs must end up like that, where the Flex emerged as an inner-layer from some standard board.
In database terms, any parts on Flex, are on inner layers.

Hi

When they manufacture the board, they put resistors internal to the structure of the board it's self. I've never visited a plant that does it so the how part is an unknown for me. The main reason I know the capability is there in Expedition is that we used it to place internal jumpers. It's one way to make an isolated plane isolated ....

Bob

[uncle_bob]

Can this Mentor Maker do more than Altium http://circuitmaker.com/ ?

Hi

I'd bet that right now it's got all sorts of issues from being ripped out of a larger program. For anything serious, I'd say come back in 6 or 12 months. The issue with all these programs is in the details. If they are serious about this being a product (and they may not be) the details will only be worked out when user feedback starts rolling in. The feedback will be looked at in light of whatever goals they have for PADS Maker.

One example already noted above: Support for export to a pick and place machine. I'm sitting here at home. I'm certainly not in business. I *have* a pick and place downstairs. They aren't that big a deal these days. Is supporting common export formats "inside" the envelope for PADS Maker? Right now there seems to be a gap. Will that be fixed or not? Only time will tell where they want to go with this.

Bob

[dmills]

Pads component XY data export has long been a bag on the side, specifically it is usually done either by using a script to produce an excel spreadsheet or by exporting the design as ASCII and then post processing it in some sort of external CAM tool, it works but.....

PADS is quite powerful, but has some major 'usability issues', and some things that are really silly optional paid extras (Differential pair length matching is an "Advanced rule feature"?? Really?? ).

If they are trying to push "DxD" on this as a schematic package instead of some sort of cut down PADS "Logic" then run away screaming, DxD is a total dogs dinner.

Then we get to the subject of FlexLM for license management, no idea if they are doing this on the 'Maker edition', but it is a major pain on the full package .

Regards, Dan.

[AndyC_772]

Diff pair length matching is a cost option with OrCAD too, you need the 'professional' tier to enable it.

It certainly used to be with PADS that push-and-shove routing (F3) was a cost option, and without it, you had to move tracks and vias around manually to fit new traces in. I actually did a board like that once *shudder*. Is it present in this new version?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

The license setup on the "Maker" stuff does not appear to be FlexLM. Since they don't do floating licenses (everything is node locked) there's not a lot of need to pay the royalties for a full blown license manager.

At this point the whole thing is a bit of a mess. If I pick a random IC in the Digikey empire, it does not have any data associated with it. The expectation is that I will do all the leg work to create that data and then up load it to their cloud. Others will then see my work as "Digikey supplied you a part". If Bob's had a six pack before doing the pin out stuff, the result you get may be a bit "interesting". Since it looks like maybe 0.001% of the parts have symbols associated with them, you *will* get a lot of stuff from some unknown guy named Bob.

Popping in and out of the magic cloud based Digikey part database is a "log into the web each time" sort of thing. It's not exactly what I would call tight integration. When the part comes down, you get a file. You then hit refresh and the file shows up. It has a wonderfully useless name on it and it is in the "PartMiner" category. First step is to open it up, fix whatever is wrong with it. Then you save it with a proper name into a category of your choice. The good news is you are forced to do what you *should* do and look at the part.

Next up is the fact that the cloud empire Part whosis is only set up to handle SOIC's right now. Anything else is "coming real soon now". You *can* do the same basic stuff inside Maker Schematic as you do on the web. You will get a symbol that you can link up. The usual Mentor approach applies ... we did it backwards / upside down / inside out .... get used to it. You can generate a symbol. Either way, you will spend some quality time working out how a .csv file needs to be formatted to get things to work. I suspect the real docs both on the web interface and on the internal generator will be along real soon now.

Once your symbols are all wired up in schematic, it's off to layout. There is a footprint tool that is a stand alone processor between the schematic and layout (you don't do the footprint when you generate the symbol). At least when I run the footprint editor, there is a *very* limited set of footprints in there. Maybe it's smarter than I am. Maybe it's yet another "learn the Mentor way" thing. If indeed you are now off to create a footprint by hand for your 208 pin package ... good luck with that. If there is a footprint editor hidden in there, it's not obvious where to find it. Either way, right now I'm stuck with my 64 pin IC and no suitable footprint.

So, about what I expected so far. Very much a work in progress with a bunch of "coming real soon" notices. We'll see how it develops. Unless you like pain, wait a few months and if it turns into something.

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

It certainly used to be with PADS that push-and-shove routing (F3) was a cost option, and without it, you had to move tracks and vias around manually to fit new traces in. I actually did a board like that once *shudder*. Is it present in this new version?

Short answer : Yes.

PADS has two Shove routers.
The one built into Layout, enabled via DRP and SH modeless commands, is still there, as is Smooth.
The Shove Router in the PADS AutoRouter package, is clearly not there, as the AutoRouter is not there. This Shove is different, generally (mostly) smarter.

[PCB.Wiz]

Pads component XY data export has long been a bag on the side, specifically it is usually done either by using a script to produce an excel spreadsheet or by exporting the design as ASCII and then post processing it in some sort of external CAM tool, it works but.....

Which makes the decision to remove scripts, more puzzling.
I guess they can add a Pick and Place script into the Reports menu, once they realize the mistake....
Wonder if anyone inside Mentor actually used this package end-to-end before they released it ?

If they are trying to push "DxD" on this as a schematic package instead of some sort of cut down PADS "Logic" then run away screaming, DxD is a total dogs dinner.

PADS Logic would have been a smarter pairing, for a Maker end release, but I think Mentor have lost the PADS Logic Skills, not to mention Turf War blinkers..

It looks like DxD.. and there is no other choice, as the netlists are now binary.
- but I can't fully test it, because the install I did, has no example schematics whatsoever, not even ones matching the sample PCBs (which you can only modify, via SCH)
Guess those are still coming...

[uncle_bob]

Hi

I think it's fair to say that this is (at best) beta test level code. So far I see no practical way to get a design from one end of it to the other. I would *love* for somebody to prove me wrong on that. The idea that anybody used If you root around, it's apparent that a couple of Arduino projects got run through the beast. I see no sign that there was a more general "large scale beta" done.

Quick way to see what has been done:

Do a search for parts with footprints and symbols. That will give you a pretty good idea.

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

.... it's apparent that a couple of Arduino projects got run through the beast...

Yes, the Press images show that, so I fully expected to see exactly that, sitting in the samples directory.
Instead....
The sample PCB provided has an 87C256, has anyone in Mentor googled 87C256 (or PAL16R8) to find out just how cutting edge  those parts are ? 

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Given how close this all is to the Mentor -> Siemens transition ... I wonder if it got rushed out the door? Having been in the middle of those sort of things a number of times, it is a real possibility. It also raises the question - how committed are the new owners to this idea? It could die a year from now if they aren't behind it. Rush it out the door to take care of the contract with Digikey. Get it to expire as soon as you possibly can ....Fake news? who knows ...

Bob

[PCB.Wiz]

Given how close this all is to the Mentor -> Siemens transition ... I wonder if it got rushed out the door? Having been in the middle of those sort of things a number of times, it is a real possibility.

Big companies are far too sluggish to move that quickly.

Mentor already had a very similar, nobbled offering at Digikey, this is just another re-try.

This email from Digkey has the real reasons, encoded in usual Corporate Spin Speak:

Designer Software News   

Designer Software News
Thank you for your interest in Mentor Graphics' Designer products. Based on customer feedback, we're replacing these products with redesigned, improved PCB design tools: PADS® Maker and PADS® MakerPro. Based on Designer, the new packages feature free and perpetual licenses (just $499!), direct access to Digi-Key's part catalog for more than a million symbols and footprints, and free, cloud-based analog, mixed-signal circuit simulation

Translated:
The previous Digikey offering of  PADS subset Mentor Graphics' Designer was a dismal commercial failure, so we are trying again, with another crippled version of PADS called PADS Maker.

[cathyT]

Good catch on the wiki error! We'll get that fixed right away. It should say, "PADS Maker is offered through a free, annual, renewable license. PADS Maker Pro licenses are perpetual and never expire."

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Well, I spun around for a while playing with manual footprint generation. Without their "wizard" (it's not part of the Maker empire) the process is .... errr .... painful. The "symbol entry" format for the CSV file is a bit obscure (but it *is* PADS standard). I ultimately got a simple symbol entered. No idea if complex (hierarchical) symbols will work with Maker. I also ran into the bump in the road I expected. I grabbed the "official Digikey generated" footprints for some SMA connectors. Hmmm.... there's only one pin ... hmmm ... Place it, run it through the process. Hook up the one pin (assuming the ground gets done auto magically). Nope, it just does not connect to anything at all. So even with the "right" data from the cloud, no luck. If this was a functional program (Expedition), the board would be laid out already and out to the fab ....

Again, about what I expected to run into at this early date in the life cycle of PADS Maker ....

One hint if you are doing manual footprints: Their default pad stack is a bit sparse. A normal mount point for a component likely will have a clearance hole in the solder mask, an opening in the solder screen. If it's a leaded part, it'll have those on both sides of the board. On an SMT part, their "through holes" in the default need to be taken to zero.

Bob