New work-in-progress EDA package!

[Lukas]

Getting started with horizon has become super easy: https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/wiki/Getting-started There are binaries for windows as well. All features now have a (hopefully easy to use) user interface, no more shell wizardy required.

[Mr. Scram]

This looks very interesting. Can you tell us a little more about your long term vision? Are you planning to open up development, possibly at the cost of control over the project and going towards a KiCad type situation? Or are you planning to stay in control more, at the risk of development dying when you lose interest?

From a usability point of view: are you planning to incorporate things like simulation or integration with CAD software like Solidworks?

[Lukas]

From a usability point of view: are you planning to incorporate things like simulation or integration with CAD software like Solidworks?

Simulation is an explicit non-goal for horizon right now since I'm focusing on making a great PCB tool. Altium seems to contain some sort of SPICE as well, I've never heard of anyone using that... For my part, I'm perfectly fine with LTSpice. STEP export is on my mid-term roadmap though

[ElektroQuark]

What about the development part?
A one man band?

[alexanderbrevig]

Just wanted to chime in and let everyone know that the windows binary and the tutorial works flawlessly.
I've been a lurker of your project Lukas, good work!

Also curious if you will open up development at some point.


EDIT: It would be great to see a complete project down the line. Something ready for manufacture export/gerber. 

[Lukas]

Nice to know that things actually work

For now horizon is a one man show, but there's no reason why it has to stay this way. If anyone's interested, I'm happy to merge pull requests. Some things that may be suitable for newcomers to implement:
 - ERC
 - Thermals in planes
 - More DRC
 - Supporting the diffpair feature of the kicad router

EDIT: It would be great to see a complete project down the line. Something ready for manufacture export/gerber. 

That was my initial idea with the  demo project, but after some time I was more interested in development instead... But yeah, maybe it's best not to develop something myself, but just redo something simple like an Arduino or dave's microcurrent in horizon.

[tycz]

Lukas,

I tried your recent build (horizon-2017-10-24-0150).

The program is very crashy, particularly when trying to close/cancel various dialogs. The schematic editor seems to require keyboard commands to operate. If I click on the help button it pops up a keyboard commands list in a modal dialog. Am I expected to commit the command list entirely to memory before I begin? Most commands are listed twice (with different keys) for no apparent reason.

Now I seem to have broken something. I can't create a new project or open the example project. The error provided is 'not found' in both cases.

I noticed you are using mm units on your schematic. You may regret this decision in the future. I recommend going unitless for schematics otherwise you end up with users that have different ideas about grids and component sizes making components which have poor compatibility with one another. Kicad users have these problems when sharing symbols for example.

I don't understand how to use the pool manager (horizon-pool-mgr). The part creation process looks overly complex and does not appear to be documented on your website. How do I create a schematic symbol?

[Lukas]

Lukas,

I tried your recent build (horizon-2017-10-24-0150).

The program is very crashy, particularly when trying to close/cancel various dialogs.

Which ones? What have you done before?

The schematic editor seems to require keyboard commands to operate. If I click on the help button it pops up a keyboard commands list in a modal dialog. Am I expected to commit the command list entirely to memory before I begin? Most commands are listed twice (with different keys) for no apparent reason. The key sequences dialog will become non-modal soon.

Yeah, horizon is mainly keyboard driven. To start tools, you may as well hit the space bar. This will bring up a searchable menu. I don't want to have a toolbar that consists of mostly meaningless icons. There are multiple key sequences to hopefully suit many users tastes.

Now I seem to have broken something. I can't create a new project or open the example project. The error provided is 'not found' in both cases.

Looks like you trashed the pool's database. Open the pool manager and click "Update pool".

I noticed you are using mm units on your schematic. You may regret this decision in the future. I recommend going unitless for schematics otherwise you end up with users that have different ideas about grids and component sizes making components which have poor compatibility with one another. Kicad users have these problems when sharing symbols for example.

Since you're eventually going to print schematics, I opted for using units. The only available grid for schematics and symbols is 1.25mm.

I don't understand how to use the pool manager (horizon-pool-mgr). The part creation process looks overly complex and does not appear to be documented on your website. How do I create a schematic symbol?

It's somehow documented on the wiki: https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/wiki/Working-with-the-Pool-Manager-and-Part-Wizard For schematic symbol: Either use "Create symbol for unit" in the pool manager, or use the "Edit Symbol" button on the second page of the part wizard.

[boyddotee]

New here but been lurking around for years.

I just spent the last couple hours playing with Horizon and I think its pretty good, and quite easy to pick up, though i only found the shortcut/command menu by accident (spacebar), not one of those who often reads the manuals. In my opinion its already miles ahead of Eagle which makes me personally want to pull my teeth out.

I noticed you are using mm units on your schematic. You may regret this decision in the future. I recommend going unitless.

I would echo this half the industry uses imperial mil, i instinctively tried entering a number and then mil in a dimension box but it took it as mm as many cad packages will do the conversion for you.

Yeah, horizon is mainly keyboard driven

Can/Will the keyboard shortcuts be changeable by the user?

[tycz]

Yeah, horizon is mainly keyboard driven. To start tools, you may as well hit the space bar. This will bring up a searchable menu. I don't want to have a toolbar that consists of mostly meaningless icons. There are multiple key sequences to hopefully suit many users tastes.

But why is the help dialog modal? It would be much more helpful if I could use the program and see the command list at the same time.

Now I seem to have broken something. I can't create a new project or open the example project. The error provided is 'not found' in both cases.

Looks like you trashed the pool's database. Open the pool manager and click "Update pool".

Here's how I corrupted the pool database.

Since you're eventually going to print schematics, I opted for using units. The only available grid for schematics and symbols is 1.25mm.

Not necessarily. I haven't printed schematics in years. Most engineers I know just send PDFs to one another.

After playing with it some more, I realised it's just like Altium schematic. The general grid is too fine and the mouse is always snapping to things. It's very off-putting.

[Lukas]

I just spent the last couple hours playing with Horizon and I think its pretty good, and quite easy to pick up, though i only found the shortcut/command menu by accident (spacebar), not one of those who often reads the manuals. In my opinion its already miles ahead of Eagle which makes me personally want to pull my teeth out.

Nice to hear that!

I noticed you are using mm units on your schematic. You may regret this decision in the future. I recommend going unitless.

I would echo this half the industry uses imperial mil, i instinctively tried entering a number and then mil in a dimension box but it took it as mm as many cad packages will do the conversion for you.

Yeah, converting from imperial units is something missing for sure. I'm happy to accept pull requests for this https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/blob/master/widgets/spin_button_dim.cpp#L21 is the place to start hacking.

Yeah, horizon is mainly keyboard driven

Can/Will the keyboard shortcuts be changeable by the user?

So far, they're hardcoded. Making them user-configurable will be a bit harder than simply writing a config file from the interactive manipulator since the imp isn't a single-instance application. So i'll probably have to go the route via the project manager.

After playing with it some more, I realised it's just like Altium schematic. The general grid is too fine and the mouse is always snapping to things. It's very off-putting.

Every schematic capture application I've ever used worked that way. There's a grid and pins are aligned at to it.

Here's how I corrupted the pool database.

That's somehow fixed in the latest version as well. The windows file dialog doesn't seem to be usable for creating folders (that was the first error message), so you selected the "passive" folder. To understand why things broke, we'll have to take a look at what the pool update function does for packages. Packages are folders in the pool since they consist of a package.json for the package and a "padstack" folder for custom padstacks. The pool update function recursively traverses the pool's directory looking packages. If a directory contains a package.json, it's considered a package directory and isn't traversed any further. By creating a package in the passive folder, the pool update function regarded this directory as a  package and thus forgot to add all the packages in it. This caused the function to fail when updating the parts since these were expecting the packages to be there.

The pool manager now forbids creating packages in non-empty directories.

[tycz]

After playing with it some more, I realised it's just like Altium schematic. The general grid is too fine and the mouse is always snapping to things. It's very off-putting.

Every schematic capture application I've ever used worked that way. There's a grid and pins are aligned at to it.

Your software does have a grid and the pins do align to it, you have got that much right. The problem is the spacing between the grid points is too fine in the schematic editor relative to the size of text and symbol pin spacing. When the grid is disproportionate to the symbols, the disadvantage is the user must work at a higher zoom level (wasting screen real estate) or with poor dexterity (wasting time trying to line up symbols and wires pixel hunt style).

The same ill fitting grid is present in the symbol editor, where it is far too course. Symbols usually have more detail than schematic sheets so why is the grid the same (and unchangeable)? The screen shot attached illustrates this. It shows a capacitor symbol from the example project open in the symbol editor. The lines are off the grid. This symbol could not have been drawn with this software in its current state!

I've been trying to create a custom schematic symbol of my own and have not succeeded. This pool manager thing is a great pile of unintuitive rubbish. It constantly pops up file save dialogs asking me to save .json files. Why do I need to save these files manually? What do I call them? Where do I put them? "Do you want to overwrite the previous file something.json ?"

I wanted to provide some constructive criticism, because I want to support new PCB design software, especially if it's open source. After a couple of hours of spent with Horizon I'm at a loss for words. My patience ran out before I even got to the board layout section...

[Lukas]

Yeah, it's non-obvious, but you by holding down the Alt key, the grid will get shrunk by a factor of 10. That's how the capacitor symbol was drawn. For pretty much every other symbol that users will create (box with pins on the edges) the grid works just fine. I really don't see your issue with the grid, KiCad works the same and I didn't find anything wrong with it. Which software gets it right? You mentioned it was just like Altium. Since many people in this forum seem to like Altium in general, I think that isn't a bad thing.

I've been trying to create a custom schematic symbol of my own and have not succeeded. This pool manager thing is a great pile of unintuitive rubbish. It constantly pops up file save dialogs asking me to save .json files. Why do I need to save these files manually? What do I call them? Where do I put them?

All symbols etc are individual files, so they need to be saved somewhere. See https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/wiki/The-Pool On how to call them, just take a look at the existing files.

BTW, why a symbol? Symbols don't really "define" pins. They just display the pins from their unit. See the wiki page linked above.

I wanted to provide some constructive criticism, because I want to support new PCB design software, especially if it's open source. After a couple of hours of spent with Horizon I'm at a loss for words. My patience ran out before I even got to the board layout section...

The Pool manager definitely is one of the less-polished things in horizon, that's why there's "WIP" in the thread's title.

[tycz]

Yeah, it's non-obvious, but you by holding down the Alt key, the grid will get shrunk by a factor of 10.

Silly me, I suppose I should have read the source code to find that out.

That's how the capacitor symbol was drawn. For pretty much every other symbol that users will create (box with pins on the edges) the grid works just fine.

This is not true. Discreet components are not drawn as boxes on a grid. Also, some users will want to create all their own symbols and not use any provided.
 
 

I really don't see your issue with the grid, KiCad works the same and I didn't find anything wrong with it. Which software gets it right?

The version of Kicad that I have installed (4.01) has no less than seven choices for grid size in the options. Horizon currently has a grid size equivalent of Kicad set to a 50 mil grid. I'm saying that it's more efficient (for the user) to have the grid set the equivalent of Kicad set to a 100 mil grid. For reference, the Kicad component library policy states that all symbol pins must line up to a 100 mil grid.

My point about the grid units still stands. A multiple of 1.25 makes the coordinates difficult to use as a point of reference. Anything other than a direct relationship between coordinates and the grid is sub-optimal. For examples of (free) programs that get this right: Kicad (set to 100/10 mil grid), PCB Elegance, Bsch3v.

The grid is by no means the biggest problem with Horizon, it's actually rather minor in comparison to some of your other interface choices. The difference is that the other problems will eventually be corrected when your users complain about them, but the grid size is so fundamental that by the time users complain it will probably be too late to do anything about it. Either that or Horizon will end up with seven grid choices, just like Kicad.

I've been trying to create a custom schematic symbol of my own and have not succeeded. This pool manager thing is a great pile of unintuitive rubbish. It constantly pops up file save dialogs asking me to save .json files. Why do I need to save these files manually? What do I call them? Where do I put them?

All symbols etc are individual files, so they need to be saved somewhere. See https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/wiki/The-Pool On how to call them, just take a look at the existing files.

BTW, why a symbol? Symbols don't really "define" pins. They just display the pins from their unit. See the wiki page linked above.

I wanted to provide some constructive criticism, because I want to support new PCB design software, especially if it's open source. After a couple of hours of spent with Horizon I'm at a loss for words. My patience ran out before I even got to the board layout section...

The Pool manager definitely is one of the less-polished things in horizon, that's why there's "WIP" in the thread's title.

This horrible mess of the Pool manager UI and the assortment of different(?) .json files (please learn what file extensions are for, there's more than just .bin and .xml and .json). Is it not the purpose of the manager to manage the data for the user? It feels like must have total understanding of the contents of every .json file before I can use this software.

You keep pointing to your wiki. There isn't enough information there for me to figure how this shit works in a reasonable amount of time. Now I'm fed up with it.

[Ysjoelfir]

There isn't enough information there for me to figure how this shit works in a reasonable amount of time. Now I'm fed up with it.

Is it just me or are you complaining (in a pretty rude way) because a "Work in Progress" software is not working the way YOU think it has to work or that you cant find an allmighty help function in a wiki for a "Work in Progress" Software? Seriously?

I for myself didn't try the software because I am aware of the WIP part and don't understand enough from github, coding and all that stuff to be particulary helpful. But I subscribed to the thread because I am interested in the software and think it has some potential. So I am always happy about any update here and hope that the project will keep going

[Lukas]

There have been some usability improvements to the pool manager lately and horizon gained support for things such as diffpairs, thermals, dragging tracks, or vias without a track attached.

You don't need to be into coding in any way to use horizon at the moment. If you're using windows (7 or later, 64 bit only) you can use the windows binaries over at https://github.com/carrotIndustries/horizon/wiki/Getting-started#windows

[tycz]

Is it just me or are you complaining (in a pretty rude way) because a "Work in Progress" software is not working the way YOU think it has to work or that you cant find an allmighty help function in a wiki for a "Work in Progress" Software? Seriously?

The wiki says "It's far from finished, but the overall architecture is there." I took that to mean I should be able to see through a basic design (I was trying to make a two transistor LED flasher) all the way from schematic to gerber. I got stuck at the component/part creation step. I found this part of the software to be difficult to use and poorly documented. The wiki claims that part creation is easy and part management is simple. I thought I would relate my experience as it was clearly not what was intended.

I for myself didn't try the software because I am aware of the WIP part and don't understand enough from github, coding and all that stuff to be particulary helpful. But I subscribed to the thread because I am interested in the software and think it has some potential. So I am always happy about any update here and hope that the project will keep going

What a piss weak excuse! Never mind me, sit down and try the software if you find it interesting.

[Ysjoelfir]

What a piss weak excuse! Never mind me, sit down and try the software if you find it interesting.

Jep, definitely rude. 
When I find the time I may take a look, but I will most definitely not do so just because some rude guy on the net tells me to do that. Sorry.

[Lukas]

Just for reference. At least one user over at https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/417908 managed to create new parts, schematic and board using horizon, go figure.

[Lukas]

Brief update: Apart from the usual continuous improvement, the 3D preview now supports STEP models for packages.

[SiliconWizard]

Just got to build it on MSYS2 (mingw64). There was no issue after installing all the required dependencies (quite a few).

Played with it a little.
Just a few remarks for now:
- I like how the split parts are handled (tried with the PIC32 component);
- I like antialiased graphics in general, but I think that antialiased graphics in Horizon doesn't look too good. I tried all the MSAA options, I don't really like how it turns out;
- Many functions are only available as keypresses apparently. The help windows do help, but I think most functions should be made available through others means as well (menus, toolbars, ...);
- I like the part reference auto-placement. This is a pain in most EDA packages when you rotate parts, in Horizon it's rather well done;
- The parts management tends to remain a bit obscure;
- I didn't spend much time trying, but I found routing tracks in the layout editor not very intuitive;
- There is a rather complete DRC feature, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of connectivity check (or maybe I missed it?).

All in all, it's an impressive work and there are some good ideas in it. But I think you should now focus on usability before implementing a lot more features.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.

[Lukas]

Just got to build it on MSYS2 (mingw64). There was no issue after installing all the required dependencies (quite a few).

You don't actually need to build it yourself anymore, there are prebuilt binaries for every commit: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/carrotIndustries/horizon/build/artifacts

- I like antialiased graphics in general, but I think that antialiased graphics in Horizon doesn't look too good. I tried all the MSAA options, I don't really like how it turns out;

That's why I made it optional

- Many functions are only available as keypresses apparently. The help windows do help, but I think most functions should be made available through others means as well (menus, toolbars, ...);

The tools specific to the selection are available from the context menu. All tools are available from the tool popover as well. Press space to show it.

- The parts management tends to remain a bit obscure;

Yeah, it's definitely more complex than other EDA packages that only have symbol and package, but it allows for greater flexibility and prevents duplicate symbols.

- I didn't spend much time trying, but I found routing tracks in the layout editor not very intuitive;

Try reducing the grid size. The router is the KiCad one, so there's not much I can do about it. But yeah, it takes a bit to get used to.

- There is a rather complete DRC feature, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of connectivity check (or maybe I missed it?).

In which way? In being not connected? Yeah, that's still missing. Misconnected nets will get flagged by the clearance checker.

[SiliconWizard]

Just got to build it on MSYS2 (mingw64). There was no issue after installing all the required dependencies (quite a few).

You don't actually need to build it yourself anymore, there are prebuilt binaries for every commit: https://ci.appveyor.com/project/carrotIndustries/horizon/build/artifacts

I know. I just tend to go all the way to the build step when I evaluate open source software.

- I like antialiased graphics in general, but I think that antialiased graphics in Horizon doesn't look too good. I tried all the MSAA options, I don't really like how it turns out;

That's why I made it optional

I figured that. I'm just saying that I'd like to be able to enable it and enjoy the result. Do you use OpenGL for the schematics and layout rendering? I have used that before and can confirm that getting good results with antialiased 2D graphics in OpenGL is difficult. I am using the project "nanovg" for some projects of mine and it's the best result I've got so far for OpenGL 2D graphics. Still, fonts never look perfect with OpenGL, not even with nanovg, in which they look a bit better than I used to get before though.

Usually, cairo graphics look better than OpenGL-based, but whereas cairo is decently accelerated on Linux, it's pretty slow on Windows, so that would probably exclude it for a CAD program, at least if it's designed to be multi-platform. If you try KiCad with the cairo front-end, you'll know what I mean.

- Many functions are only available as keypresses apparently. The help windows do help, but I think most functions should be made available through others means as well (menus, toolbars, ...);

The tools specific to the selection are available from the context menu. All tools are available from the tool popover as well. Press space to show it.

I didn't always find all the tools. Didn't know about the "space" shortcut to make it pop up though. Yet another keypress you have to know about. But yeah, once you know that trick, it's better.

- There is a rather complete DRC feature, but there doesn't seem to be any kind of connectivity check (or maybe I missed it?).

In which way? In being not connected? Yeah, that's still missing. Misconnected nets will get flagged by the clearance checker.

Exactly. As in not connected. Making sure a complex design is completely routed without this feature can lead to suicide in some cases. 

Another thing I didn't figure out how to do (or don't know if it's possible) is to modify parts values directly from the schematics. For instance, changing a resistor from 10k to 20k. The value field is always grayed out. Changing the part completely when you just want to change a value is a royal pain. I understand that OTOH, it allows to always get the right manufacturer part number, but there certainly is something to work on here. Unless we can and I just missed how to do it...

[Yansi]

What's so freaking complicated about having the grid user settable to ANY arbitrary step, including NO GRID setting?

I think in this case Eagle is only the one tool that get the grid function right, including the ALT to switch between two arbitrarily user set grid sizes.

[Lukas]

I went with OpenGL since one of my goals for horizon is to have a single canvas/editor for everything from symbol to board. Drawing schematics with OpenGL is an overkill for sure, but it keeps overall complexity down. (And it's certainly better than KiCad's wxDC)

I didn't always find all the tools. Didn't know about the "space" shortcut to make it pop up though. Yet another keypress you have to know about. But yeah, once you know that trick, it's better.

In fact, if you're lazy, space is the only shortcut you'll need to remember. Just hit space and search for the tool you want to use.

Another thing I didn't figure out how to do (or don't know if it's possible) is to modify parts values directly from the schematics. For instance, changing a resistor from 10k to 20k. The value field is always grayed out. Changing the part completely when you just want to change a value is a royal pain.

That's why I made changing parts a low-effort operation: Use the tool "assign part" to change the component's part, no need to re-add the resistor. Having a generic 12k 0603 resistor without any part number associated with it is worthless for the BOM (BOM export still missing/WIP).

What's so freaking complicated about having the grid user settable to ANY arbitrary step, including NO GRID setting?

I think in this case Eagle is only the one tool that get the grid function right, including the ALT to switch between two arbitrarily user set grid sizes.

Yeah, there's still some room for improvement on how grids are handled. I don't see your first point, you can just type in "1.234mm" and it'll work.  As a stand-in until there's more than one grid, holding down alt will divide the grid by a factor of 10.