Author Topic: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020  (Read 98909 times)

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Offline Amarbir[Lynx-India]Topic starter

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Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« on: October 07, 2012, 05:32:19 pm »
Hi Folks ,
      My Purpose If To Design And Do Some little modification to some open source hardware designs and also design my own schematics and pcb's . Max would be two layer boards .Mostly through hole type .I have some past experience with eagle and proteus .Today i checked AutoTRAX and i was bowled out by the user interface .The software seems to be getting powerful day by day .The manual and documentation parts sucks and many portions are not even done up in the documentation .They have a offer going on for USD 49/Year till 13th  .Does anyone have some kinda experience in this software to help me buy/no buy decision .
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Offline PuterGeek

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 01:01:12 am »
I was interested in the sale price and downloaded the software to try it out. This is not in depth just my impressions below are just from the schematic capture portion. Since I'm no expert, there may be ways to tweak the behavior.

The overall appearance if favorable and I like how the library is displayed. The performance is adequate although it does seem a little slow to load. It has some nice touches on the interface such as shortcut toolbar icons to switch between snap settings (2, 4, 8, etc.). Right click menus are pretty well done and have most of what you would expect. I'm well past needing reading glasses so I found the icons too small. There is a nice calculator feature for numerical inputs so you can do the math in place.

The library is pretty limited but there are some library items to use to build symbols which is a nice feature. The symbols were obviously built metric which creates rounding oddities when you use the US system. The grid snap doesn't work when moving symbol parts. Overall I would probably rate symbol building as fair.

The schematic entry did some weird things tying to be helpful. Signal lines would jog around reference designators or values and the lines would 'fix' themselves when you move parts. Junction dots would sometimes go to weird places. A bigger problem was flipping components the graphics changed but the pin numbers didn't work right.

A bug in the library tree view caused it to duplicate folder trees if you double clicked a folder that was already open. There was also a bug in the symbol editor with the coordinates swapped or something. I fumbled my way thru getting the results I wanted but didn't really understand the problem. In several places the displayed controls were cutoff like the color selector in the symbol builder. Rather than pop-up dialog boxes (like Autodesk Inventor) in used a properties tool box (like Solidworks) which uses a lot of screen area. Tool tips frequently popped up to obscure where I was trying to click.

In summary, there are some good ideas but the fit and finish aren't there.

In case anyone is interested, this was on Windows 7 64-bit, quad core Phenom II, 8 GB RAM, Radeon HD 4850 and a 24 inch wide screen LCD.
 

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 02:05:11 am »
IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.
 

Offline PuterGeek

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2012, 02:38:56 am »
I agree on all those points Dave.

As an individual's effort it is extremely well done. The problem with something as complex as CAD software is it really helps to break it down to chunks. Having multiple people for the chunks helps get problems resolved.

All that being said, I don't see anything nearly as good at the price point. Like you, I would want a little more support if I were going to use it to put food on the table.

But then again, who knows when an Altium or DipTrace will vanish? I'm sure if a competitor buys Altium, AD12 will not be around for too long. Sure they'll offer to migrate you but that is usually pretty dodgey in my experience.

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2012, 06:55:13 am »
But then again, who knows when an Altium or DipTrace will vanish? I'm sure if a competitor buys Altium, AD12 will not be around for too long. Sure they'll offer to migrate you but that is usually pretty dodgey in my experience.

Altium did that themselves when they bought CircuitMaker and PCAD. Not to mention Tasking and Morfik.

Dave.
 

Offline JoannaK

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2012, 06:01:15 pm »
Based on my own short test... Note though that I have no meaningfull amount of experience of similar priced PCB-layout/routing programs, only 5+ years of PADS.. so the comparieion to that price range would be unfair.

As a quick note: I don't in general understand the keen interest of replacing well known shematic (and pcb) symbols with 2d/3d renderings. Not that 3D render of the board may look nice (and if exported as STL would be suitable for physical size 3d-print), but the problem is that this kind of sw-development is away of the making the basic software reliable, smooth and well enginered. This same goes to n+1 home-made autorouters found on these low end tools, small team ain't likely to be able to create an autorouter that can be used on half-decent boards, so the developers should (IMHO) concentrate their effort on the parts of program not readily available as a 3rd part library.

For this particular program:  I do like the integration of schema/pcb level. The new-office-look menus are quite clumsy (IMHO, same as on m$ products) and many usefull features seems to be missing. Unimplemented features are easier to spot when you change to classic menus, with those ... Well, way too often the result is the requester "Feature not yet implemented" .

On pcb-side, the biggest show-stoppers for me are.
- Manual routing downright sucks.. (or I just don't understand how it's supposed to work?)
- The part library is 1-1-1 tied from shematic/Partsymbol-rendering. That is if you'll ever need to change any part of existing design to another package (happens a lot in real world designs) you'll need to mess with the Shematic, part definition etc.
- Locking the part locations at PCB don't work... Well, it kinda works, so you may place the parts and select them to be locked, but if you ever accidently press 'aling parts to grid' it nudges all parts some small amount to some undefined direction (no warning). What's worse, if you do it again, those parts are moved once more.
- There is no way to filter what you want to select with your LMB, at a time I'd like to select: Parts or documentation (part names/ref designators) or traces, vias, pins, and/or unrouted links from the ratsnest. If there is a neat way to filter the selections, I'd surely didn't see it.

But.. like I said, I have not done a *** on programs like Eagle, kiCad etc.. so may well be that I'm xpecting too much out of this one..


 

Offline DavidDLC

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2012, 06:24:59 pm »
This program is not worth.

Support from the owner is not good, I had a bad experience, I got robbed $100.00 USD when I bought it and it never worked. It was crashing all the time.

Not good.
 

Offline Amarbir[Lynx-India]Topic starter

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 05:44:08 am »
IIRC AutoTrax EDA was, and still is written by a single guy.
So that's a very impressive achievement of course, but I would not bet on it as a long term supported tool in that case. For hobby use etc that's not really an issue of course.

Dave.

Dave ,
         Then Eagle is Not  Bad Choice .Mostly My Schematics Are Single Sheet And PCB falls under the freeware version of eagle  .With Autotrax lots of people are having issues .And i do not understand Was AutoTRAX EDA also from same developer .If yes what was the need to rename it  ?
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Offline novarm44

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 11:50:25 am »
When single guys develops software there are problems connected with testing, documentation, library development, etc. Also if single guy decide to leave this job - the project will be closed.

The software developed by team has better quality as each team member develops its own part and much more man-hours were spent on it, if owner decide to leave the business - he can sell the company (like with Eagle) or just leave the team.

As example DipTrace was started by single programmer too (and Autotrax/DEX was already on market at that time), once the project allowed to hire more people - we did that and our first employee was full-time engineer/tester to debug the product. Currently DipTrace is solid company with developers, testers, writers, engineers, library team and it becomes less and less dependent on business owner/main developer while it grows. Altium and other large companies are even more stable from this point of view. Of course each business depends on its SEO and his decisions though.

Also see if software can export third-party / ASCII formats, i.e its files are not private and you will not be alone with tons of designs when developer decide to leave the business.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 11:52:04 am by novarm44 »
 

Offline poorchava

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2013, 09:05:46 am »
if(HasOnlineDrc)
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Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2013, 10:55:26 am »
Quote
Have a look at the time bugs are fixed on both user groups.
i dont bother checking. all i know, i've used both diptrace and dex, yes they both have bugs, thats only natural for software development. sometime, more people reporting bugs (or requesting features) means thats software is popular. now back to "i've used both software", the main difference is... i still continue using diptrace albeit bugs in it, it still workable and output usable "production files". now this dex, it crashed on me the time i load it, i cant do anything i cant place a resistor nothing, the GUI are all scrambled everywhere resembling mutilated goblin. if i cant do anything with dex how do i make recommendation to other people whether its good or bad? dont get me wrong,  i dont hate dex, i believe there is hope in it, but... sigh, have you fixed that?
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline cwalex

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2013, 11:22:28 am »
Hi Stanislav

You state than ‘when single guys develop software there are problems… “
Well that’s true. There are even more problems when many guys develop software!

It all depends on the individual. You of course know that there is a productivity gap of over 10:1 among programmers and if more than one is developing the program this gets worse.
Of course the tools you use matter. Say if you program in Pascal which is an old teaching language never meant for large products then the problems will only be compounded.

If you are referring to me then you are badly mistaken. I develop with all the latest tools, .NET, C# with C++/CLI, C++ and even C where needed.
I also use XmlSpy, Antlr and numerous other tools.
DEX has integrated testing, system testing and UI testing all tied together in a Microsoft Visual Studio 2012 with Team Foundation Server and Agile methodology.
FYI AutoTRAX consists of 336,186 lines of code in 1522 classes.
I have developed software for many large international companies including SolidWorks and Silicon Graphics Inc.
See my profile at http://uk.linkedin.com/in/iliyakovac

As for Diptrace being a ‘better’software company. You need to look at all the bugs being reported on your user group
http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/diptr/

You can see the AutoTRAX user group at
http://finance.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/autotrax/

Have a look at the time bugs are fixed on both user groups.
Also see what happened to your users requesting Line cursors. I did it for AutoTRAX within 4 hours and it was available for users. You said it took you 2 weeks.
This proves my point about lean development with the right tools. Yes I look at what your users are saying and if they have a good idea and it’s not already in AutoTRAX then I add it.

As the developer of Diptrace you really should not be spreading misinformation.

I am glad you brought up the closed file format. As you know, AutoTRAX has had an open format XML file structure since day one. This has now been emulated by Eagle.
You can find the spec for the AutoTRAX XML at http://www.kov.com/DexXmlSchemaManual/
I don’t think Diptrace is XML.
Also see my article at http://iliyakovac.com/free-but-not-free-or-im-off-to-cancun/

AutoTRAX has one single price. Not the ‘gotcha’pricing of Diptrace and others. It’s like selling a 4 seater car but the back seats and passenger seat have chains on them that you have to pay extra to get unlocked.

The parts library is not limited as there are 109,951 parts available for AutoTRAX at http://kov.com/Support/Parts.aspx

The bug in the library tree was fixed last year.

My contact details including address and phone number are at http://kov.com/AboutUs/
I cannot find any details on your website for you!

Regards
Iliya Kovac
The single guy who developed and continues to develop AutoTRAX DEX 2020
http://www.kov.com

I haven't checked but have you got some youtube tutorials covering a simple real world project as simple as a ftdi to ttl seral converter or even simpler from schematic capture through to gerber output? If not and you can spare the time you might find it helpful for getting people on board with your software. It would be a good opportunity to show in action any special things your software does that you think make the workflow more efficient or just better. I got a decent output of eagle following user submitted videos and now I'm playing around with altium from video examples, I just seem to learn better that way. I don't think I could go back to eagle now! I'd be willing to try following a vid tut on your software though.

Take care,

Alex
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2013, 06:56:19 pm »
DEX does not need to import 3D models. It generates the 3D automatically from the part. No need for you to do anything!  :o

Ahh, marketing-speak!

So you basically say that this software has a crystal ball built in that automagically knows what the part looks like. And you want us to believe that?

See, i have written this wonderful new OS. It boots up in under 1 milisecond, detects all the hardware you throw at it, and has only one command, "do". Using that command it will do whatever you want it to do.

Of course what i said is not true. But neither is what you said true. At best it can use generic, pre-made models that already exist, like a SO8 package model whenever i tell it that my part is using the same package. It can not, and will never, automatically create 3D models of whatever part i want to create. It simply can't.

Really, i have no problems with people talking about their software or products. But please, cut the crap. We are all grownups here. Keep the hollow marketing lingo to shiny prospects and ads, but leave that garbage out of a forum.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2013, 09:38:36 pm »
Haha, and now the marketing speak turned right into a sales pitch. All you just said in oh-so-many words is that you use predefined stuff to auto-generate parts. And that means it will fall apart as soon as you get to devices that are outside of the predefined things.

See, it's quite easy. You could have said that it will help to generate 3D models of parts easier, and that it provides basic blocks or wizards to create rather common packages. Instead you chose to say "It generates the 3D automatically from the part." But again, that can only work if the basic blocks/parameters for such a part are already known.

But even worse, you went right into marketing speak and threw out the silly phrase "No need for you to do anything!". For something that needs nothing to be done by the user you surely made a rather long post about how to actually do it.

Just exactly what is to be expected when looking behind gross overstatements made in marketing-speak.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline DavidDLC

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 01:52:19 am »
This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.

I did format the hard disk anyways and still didn't work as expected it was halting all the time, and I never managed to have a finished circuit, when I asked for a refund because I followed all the recommendations and it didn't work I got nothing.

So I wasted 100 USD ( the price at that time ) for nothing. As a owner sometimes is better to give a refund on something that does not work for one user, rather to have a not happy customer ( like me ) giving bad feedback whenever there is a chance.

Use free version of Eagle or Kicad or something else, do not waste your money on this product.
 

Offline mstevens

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 03:39:48 am »
This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.


DUDE!!! Give it a break, you have already stated this before!!! I have DEX running under several different OSes on different hardware 32 and 64 bit.  Just from your post, it leads me to believe your just inept.  It was $100.  Chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on with your life.  QUIT SPAMMING US!!

 

Online Mechatrommer

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 04:19:35 am »
now i remember. the first time i installed DEX its working ok, GUI are OK. and then later maybe the 3rd of 5th time i loaded it, the GUI got scrambled. i uninstalled and reinstalled, its still scrambled, so there must be setting already buried in my system that cause this scrambling. my videocard if ATI Radeon HD4650, not the cheapest when i bought it. every other programs incl DirectX 3D are working flawless, so i doubt the "your card is crappy" is the reason.

edit: asking customers to format HDD and reinstall is not acceptable. the programmer should be well versed in the program he's developing. he should know which and where is the setting to tweak to make it work. this is the reason i stays away from MFC, C# NET or whatnot. too much things i dont understand in the system/IDE. i can see from the look of it, DEX is too much dependent on these fancy stuffs.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 04:26:42 am by Mechatrommer »
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Offline DavidDLC

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 04:51:31 am »
This software sucks, looks like a toy, and it never worked on my computer, the owner asked to do serveral things, at the en he asked me to format the hard disk ( really ! ), in order for it to work.


DUDE!!! Give it a break, you have already stated this before!!! I have DEX running under several different OSes on different hardware 32 and 64 bit.  Just from your post, it leads me to believe your just inept.  It was $100.  Chalk it up as a lesson learned and move on with your life.  QUIT SPAMMING US!!

No I won't
 

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 11:02:46 am »
I never asked anybody to format a disc.
and i never said i believe you did ;) cheers programmer!
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 11:27:15 am »
HaHa, Looked at your Posts. Eagle/Germany ...
Don't like DEX do you?

Bet you never even downloaded it to try it.

How should i know if i like your software or not? After all you are unable or unwilling to provide it cross-platform, which makes it impossible for non-Windows users to run it natively.

But what's more is the fact that you seem unable to differentiate between criticism of a product (which i did not do) and criticism of hollow marketing speak and sales pitch (which i did do). Once you learned the difference between that we may discuss that further.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline Amarbir[Lynx-India]Topic starter

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2013, 12:12:36 pm »
@ ilija ,
            Sir why are you banging your head on the wall when some people keeping bsing .I used the trial and i loved it .Let me share the bad points "I hope you like constructive feedback "

1 : i would love to see a video that explains us very basic from start to finish .I only saw small small video's .

         Thats all ,Nothing else  :)
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Offline Amarbir[Lynx-India]Topic starter

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2013, 12:34:55 pm »
Haha, and now the marketing speak turned right into a sales pitch. All you just said in oh-so-many words is that you use predefined stuff to auto-generate parts. And that means it will fall apart as soon as you get to devices that are outside of the predefined things.

See, it's quite easy. You could have said that it will help to generate 3D models of parts easier, and that it provides basic blocks or wizards to create rather common packages. Instead you chose to say "It generates the 3D automatically from the part." But again, that can only work if the basic blocks/parameters for such a part are already known.

But even worse, you went right into marketing speak and threw out the silly phrase "No need for you to do anything!". For something that needs nothing to be done by the user you surely made a rather long post about how to actually do it.

Just exactly what is to be expected when looking behind gross overstatements made in marketing-speak.

Greetings,

Chris

Well,
       Chris ,He just explain can'nt you get it ? .The problem with many many customers i have seen is "They like the dealer/manufacturer to work the way they feel comfortable with " Not understanding he has to work in a system .Whenever he will post some of them will jump into the marketing/promotion nonesense .i just experienced this when i posted in one forum and someone when to the extend of everything to abuse me right in eevblog -> https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-tl866cs-universal-programmer/msg184241/#msg184241
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Offline cwalex

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2013, 01:03:30 pm »
There are 40 videos on YouTube. All HD.

https://www.youtube.com/user/AutoTRAXDEX

Regards
Iliya Kovac

Cheers mate, I'll take a look when work quietens down to a dull roar again  :-+
 

Offline mamalala

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2013, 01:27:32 pm »
Well,
       Chris ,He just explain can'nt you get it ?

What's there to "get"? I have no problems with his product or himself. I just don't like misleading marketing-speak and that's what i called out. First he claimed that the software generates the 3D parts automatically, and he especially claimed that the user has to do nothing for it. I called that out since it simply is impossible. To which he replied with more marketing speak and a sales-pitch. Which, btw., made it clear that it is indeed not true that the user has to do nothing. Instead of admitting that he made a far-fetched claim that isn't true always, he decided to go the route of a personal attack.

Seriously, i hate that false advertising crap. In the sales pitch you get promised heaven and stars, while the reality is something completely different once you bought the product. I just don't like that. I prefer honesty over fancy wording. Why not being truthful and say that the software can help generate 3D parts just for common stuff? Why the need to make it sound like it can do magic? It's simply a fact that there are many parts that can not be auto-generated but have to be drawn up by the user instead. Like LC-Displays, buttons and switches of various types, battery holders, not-so-common connectors, other special parts, etc.

Greetings,

Chris
 

Offline DavidDLC

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Re: Opinions - AutoTRAX Design Express 2020
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2013, 06:17:11 am »
now i remember. the first time i installed DEX its working ok, GUI are OK. and then later maybe the 3rd of 5th time i loaded it, the GUI got scrambled. i uninstalled and reinstalled, its still scrambled, so there must be setting already buried in my system that cause this scrambling. my videocard if ATI Radeon HD4650, not the cheapest when i bought it. every other programs incl DirectX 3D are working flawless, so i doubt the "your card is crappy" is the reason.

edit: asking customers to format HDD and reinstall is not acceptable. the programmer should be well versed in the program he's developing. he should know which and where is the setting to tweak to make it work. this is the reason i stays away from MFC, C# NET or whatnot. too much things i dont understand in the system/IDE. i can see from the look of it, DEX is too much dependent on these fancy stuffs.
I never asked anybody to format a disc.
I suspect your machine is not compatible with .NET or there is something not right with the .NET installation.

Ilja, you asked me, so please don't lie
 


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