PCB price reduction for large boards

[VEGETA]

Hello,

I have a design in mind which will be 12cmx14cm (or maybe 12x13) and I wanted to make a lot of it to reduce the cost, maybe get something like 1$ per board. I don't quite understand penalization since the terms used by cheap manufacturers are not precise or maybe I didn't get it right.

Anyway, how to reduce the cost for making say 20 or 100 pieces of these boards so cheaply (without assembly)? I don't know the standard panel size used so that confused me more. Also, I have another 2 smaller ones (front and back panels) which I need the same amount for each one. Thus making more panels or put the 3 boards on one panel.

I am looking forward to your generous responses.

[ebastler]

Well, volume PCB suppliers would probably not consider 100 units to be "a lot".

If you stick with the common online suppliers specializing in small or medium batch sizes, the best price you can get according to the price comparison at http://pcbshopper.com/ is $1.66 per board. (That's for 100 boards, 2-layers, size 120*130 mm².) You probably won't get much lower.

I don't think tweaking the panelization will help much. If you simply ask for a quote for 100 boards, the board dimensions define the minimal "cell size", which you cannot easily change. I assume all the online quoting systems check how that board can be best fitted into the PCB manufacturer's panel size, and base their quote on that, so they do the panelization for you. (If their systems are really dumb, it may be worth a try swapping the width and height dimensions...)

For the front and back panel baords, you can try asking for quotes for the individual boards, and alternatively for the two boards combined (separated by a V-groove or milled cut and tabs).

By the way:

I am the cult of personality!

Huh?! 

[VEGETA]

Well, 100 is a lot to me xD. I still have 2 other boards which are smaller (front and back panel) so I don't know if this will be cheaper to make them all in one panel or each at its own panel. Also, get them on the same order or not (possible I guess).

What did you mean by total board area of my batch?

___

If you didn't like me the cult of personality, then I am the prince of all Saiyans.

[wraper]

Panelizing won't reduce the price of the boards, and, most likely, will even increase it. Penalization is good for assembly purposes, though.

[DerekG]

I have a design in mind which will be 12cmx14cm (or maybe 12x13)

We are using PCBWAY for 120mm x 100mm boards. We get 4 circuits in a panel - all V-grooved which can only be done on square or rectangular boards. This is the cheapest way.

4 up circuits in a panel speeds up SMD robot loading & also putting them through the infra red reflow oven plus makes them easier to handle on the waver solderer.

You just need to check the maximum size that the SMD robot, reflow oven & wave solderer can accommodate.

PCBWAY can supply you a stainless steel stencil to match you panel. Cost is about US$40. You can order it online at the same time as the panels. Simply choose for them to select the panel size when ordering (just give them the max size you can handle plus the dimensions of the stencil required to fit your frames).

[mikeselectricstuff]

100 is a lot for a pooling service, so combining designs on one panel may save a little on tooling cost, but saving depends how well it will fill a panel  - if it doesn't pack well the wasted material may  outweigh the advantage of having a single panel type.

[wraper]

100 is a lot for a pooling service, so combining designs on one panel may save a little on tooling cost, but saving depends how well it will fill a panel  - if it doesn't pack well the wasted material may  outweigh the advantage of having a single panel type.

Cheap Chinese PCB services usually also add premium for placing different PCBs on a single panel.

[james_s]

That's because they panelize the boards themselves. My usual go-to is smart-prototyping.com, they're the cheapest I've found and the boards are quite good. 100 boards is a large run for a hobbyist but it's a tiny number for a production run.

[Mattylad]

If "you" panelise the board then what the front end people at your fabricators is going to do is strip all that panelisation out and run their DRC checks, etch compensation etc on 1 board, then panelise the whole thing. So although you may think doing the panelisation yourself is going to save time and money - in reality its not going to.

Perhaps draw up a panel drawing with your preferred panelisation, however remember that the best way to save money is to give them some guidelines and allow them to determine the number of boards on a panel, as their panels are set sizes and the more space they can utilize the cheaper your bards become - if you limit them then you still pay for the unused laminate but get less boards for your buck.
Get a dialogue going with your fabricator to find out from them the best panelisation method.

I would generally add panelisation rules onto a fabrication drawing which is given with the Gerbers.

Matt

[tszaboo]

Assuming 2L, board that size will cost you at least 3-4 USD in the thousands quantity.
Even if you make it in china, (suprise!) shipping and customs are expensive. Local PCB houses will provide you competitive prices for large batch anyway.

[ebastler]

Assuming 2L, board that size will cost you at least 3-4 USD in the thousands quantity.
Even if you make it in china, (suprise!) shipping and customs are expensive. Local PCB houses will provide you competitive prices for large batch anyway.

You can get a bit lower than that; see my post above (2nd from the top). About $2.00 incl. import duties, plus shipping, which should not exceed $0.50 per board. And that's for quantity 100, which the OP had planned for -- you should be able to get a better price for 1000.

[tszaboo]

Assuming 2L, board that size will cost you at least 3-4 USD in the thousands quantity.
Even if you make it in china, (suprise!) shipping and customs are expensive. Local PCB houses will provide you competitive prices for large batch anyway.

You can get a bit lower than that; see my post above (2nd from the top). About $2.00 incl. import duties, plus shipping, which should not exceed $0.50 per board. And that's for quantity 100, which the OP had planned for -- you should be able to get a better price for 1000.

I've entered the 120*130mm board in your calculator, and it gave me 227 EUR including shipping, excluding VAT+TAX. Last time (and I really hope it was last time forever) I ordered PCB from china, 21% tax was added to it, plus charge for customs (no import duty). So that will be a total of 288 USD, or in other words, exactly the amount that I wrote.

And I would still do it in Europe. Because the projects I do, the PCB is 3-5% of the total BOM cost. So I would rather pay even 50% extra to get it right. Because even one bad board will be PITA to track down the issue, expensive that it is scrapped, and simply the PCB quality they make here is better. Customer service is better. If I have an issue with my order, I pick up the telephone, they will apologize and run the production again.

It is never the pure upfront price tag, that you should be looking for. If you do, you are in the wrong industry.

I understand, that it is very competetive to get prototype boards from china. But it is a big no-no for production.

[ebastler]

I've entered the 120*130mm board in your calculator, and it gave me 227 EUR including shipping, excluding VAT+TAX. Last time (and I really hope it was last time forever) I ordered PCB from china, 21% tax was added to it, plus charge for customs (no import duty). So that will be a total of 288 USD, or in other words, exactly the amount that I wrote.

And I would still do it in Europe. Because the projects I do, the PCB is 3-5% of the total BOM cost. So I would rather pay even 50% extra to get it right. Because even one bad board will be PITA to track down the issue, expensive that it is scrapped, and simply the PCB quality they make here is better. Customer service is better. If I have an issue with my order, I pick up the telephone, they will apologize and run the production again.

OK, I don't want to haggle here. I got $2.50 total cost for quantity 100 (from the  numbers I had pulled 2 weeks ago), and consider that significantly less than $3..4 for quantity 1000. Tried the price calculator for quantity 1000 today, and it comes up with €1.58 (incl. shipping, excl. import duties).

I agree that in many instances the PCB price should not dominate your sourcing decision: When the layout is challenging, and/or when the costs for populating (and potentially discarding) a board are high, it makes sense to pay more for the PCB to be on the safe side. On the other hand, for boards with a conservative layout and low parts cost, the PCB costs may matter a lot.

In my experience -- though only based on small prototype/hobby batches -- assuming a price markup of 50% for producing in Europe is very optimistic. I have typically been faced with 400% more or so for buying from a European board house!