PCB redraw slow on new machine

[nitro2k01]

Another shot in the dark: Try right clicking the process in the task manager, set affinity, and select only CPU 0.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm out of ideas then.

OK thanks for the suggestions anyway

Try right clicking the process in the task manager, set affinity, and select only CPU 0.

No difference

[IanJ]

could be a DirectX 8.1 issue though, if the app was designed for 8.1 which was discontinued and replaced with DirectX 9 which was meant to be backwards compatible with 8.1 but wasn't fully so any incorrectly written 8.1 app would exhibit some weird issues when run against the more modern DirectX.

you might also want to try installing DirectX 8.1 from here http://www.oldversion.com/windows/directx-8-1

Ian.

[Psi]

Maybe try buying a Tesla model S
It won't fix the PCAD problem but it will take your mind off it. 

[firewalker]

Does PCAD offer support?

Alexander.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Does PCAD offer support?

Alexander.

Nope - Altium dropped it many years ago. They wouldn't even take my money to upgrade from the layer/part limited version I had at the time.

[Jeroen3]

Did you try the Power Profile method yet.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/pcb-redraw-slow-on-new-machine/msg725142/#msg725142

Eagle zooms notably slower when the cpu is idling at a low multiplier.
(I don't think eagle utilizes the gpu)

You can use process explorer to see if it utilizes gpu.
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896653.aspx

[wreeve]

Try Windows 10. I remember Protel99SE was a big sluggish with 3D rendering on windows 7.
8.1 and 10 are fine, it flies, but I suspect that was an OpenGL issue rather than a 2d draw issue.

I went from integrated graphics in a Haswell i7 to a dedicated Nvidia 750Ti graphics card and it made zero difference in Protel (the odd 3d game was a different matter!!!).

[mikeselectricstuff]

Did you try the Power Profile method yet.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/eda/pcb-redraw-slow-on-new-machine/msg725142/#msg725142

Just tried - no difference

[mikeselectricstuff]

Try Windows 10. I remember Protel99SE was a big sluggish with 3D rendering on windows 7.
8.1 and 10 are fine, it flies, but I suspect that was an OpenGL issue rather than a 2d draw issue.

I went from integrated graphics in a Haswell i7 to a dedicated Nvidia 750Ti graphics card and it made zero difference in Protel (the odd 3d game was a different matter!!!).

I'd rather put up with it, or try an XP VM on the occasional huge board than risk W10!

 

[nitro2k01]

Have you confirmed that it actually uses (plain) GDI and not OpenGL? If it does use OpenGL, the problem could simply be that your driver no longer supports OpenGL, or has worse support than the driver you used on XP. Try running the OpenGL extension viewer and see what options you have in the dropdown box at the top.

Another thing you can try is using Dependency Walker to see if OpenGL32.dll is imported by the application. But this can be a rough edged sword since the DLL may be imported by a library DLL, or conditionally in which case it won't show up.

If you find out that the program is using OpenGL, and that your driver lacks proper OpenGl support, you can try scouting for a different driver that does. If no better driver is offered, you may consider trying TitaniumGL, which emulates OpenGL through Direct3D.

The relevant links:
http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
http://www.dependencywalker.com/
http://titaniumgl.tk/

[mikeselectricstuff]

Have you confirmed that it actually uses (plain) GDI and not OpenGL? If it does use OpenGL, the problem could simply be that your driver no longer supports OpenGL, or has worse support than the driver you used on XP. Try running the OpenGL extension viewer and see what options you have in the dropdown box at the top.

Another thing you can try is using Dependency Walker to see if OpenGL32.dll is imported by the application. But this can be a rough edged sword since the DLL may be imported by a library DLL, or conditionally in which case it won't show up.

If you find out that the program is using OpenGL, and that your driver lacks proper OpenGl support, you can try scouting for a different driver that does. If no better driver is offered, you may consider trying TitaniumGL, which emulates OpenGL through Direct3D.

The relevant links:
http://www.realtech-vr.com/glview/
http://www.dependencywalker.com/
http://titaniumgl.tk/

Dependency walker shows no opengl, but does show GDI32.DLL, which I assume is to do with it.
The SW dates back to at least 1997 and I don't think any major changes in graphics were made before its demise in 2007 or so . I believe it was written in Delphi.

I'm not totally convinced that it is purely a GDI issue, as from what I've read, Vista really broke GDI, but WDDM1.1 put a lot of the hardware acceleration back again, though apparently it is now more down to what the card manufacturers choose to implement. I've seen some discussions around 2012 mentioning that ATI and Nvidia have "only recently" added support.

Maybe there are some corner cases where it is still poor.
As mentioned, there is a substantial difference in speed (like 10x) between when it does a "hidden" redraw (startup and changing display mode from outline to solid) vs when it does it prograssively onscreen (panning & zooming).
I don't know enough about PC graphics architecture to understand the process, but I suspect something to do with how images are rendered then displayed.

Other PCAD users have reported similar slowdowns, but added that turning  Aero off helps, however if I turn Aero on, it doesn't seem to get any slower for me, so I wonder if there may still be some Aero related thing that's persisting even after switching to the Windows Classic theme I use.

[TerminalJack505]

We still use a crusty version of Borland C++Builder at work (C++Builder is pretty much just Delphi) and there is a very noticeable improvement in screen redraw speed of Borland apps on Windows 7 when Aero is disabled so I'm surprised that that didn't do the trick.

Checking the "Disable desktop composition" checkbox on the app's Compatibility page should be all that is necessary to disable Aero.  (Launching the app. will cause the OS to disable Aero.)

If you have changed the OS DPI setting to something other than 96 DPI then you might switch back to 96 DPI and see if it helps.  Your application is likely not DPI-aware so Windows will do all of the application's screen drawing in an off-screen buffer before displaying it.  Old apps like yours assumed the screen resolution was 96 DPI so setting the OS's screen resolution to 96 DPI will prevent the OS from "virtualizing" the app's resolution.

[nitro2k01]

Dependency walker shows no opengl, but does show GDI32.DLL, which I assume is to do with it.

That means nothing per se. Every graphical Windows application links to GDI32.dll. But, I was just looking for obvious hints that it might be using OpenGL for rendering.

Other PCAD users have reported similar slowdowns, but added that turning  Aero off helps, however if I turn Aero on, it doesn't seem to get any slower for me, so I wonder if there may still be some Aero related thing that's persisting even after switching to the Windows Classic theme I use.

Another shot in the dark, then: Control Panel, Administrative Tools, Services. Look for the Themes service and stop it if it is started.

[Warhawk]

Try Windows 10. I remember Protel99SE was a big sluggish with 3D rendering on windows 7.
8.1 and 10 are fine, it flies, but I suspect that was an OpenGL issue rather than a 2d draw issue.

I went from integrated graphics in a Haswell i7 to a dedicated Nvidia 750Ti graphics card and it made zero difference in Protel (the odd 3d game was a different matter!!!).

I though that Protel 99SE is not stable under windows 7 although you install it in a compatibility mode. Or is it ?

[wreeve]

Try Windows 10. I remember Protel99SE was a big sluggish with 3D rendering on windows 7.
8.1 and 10 are fine, it flies, but I suspect that was an OpenGL issue rather than a 2d draw issue.

I went from integrated graphics in a Haswell i7 to a dedicated Nvidia 750Ti graphics card and it made zero difference in Protel (the odd 3d game was a different matter!!!).

I though that Protel 99SE is not stable under windows 7 although you install it in a compatibility mode. Or is it ?

Yes, what ever you do don't use the set-up under windows 7 and above it screws with the OS in a strange way! What you do is install on XP and just copy all the files over by hand. You have to mess around with the .ini files to get the libraries in and register a few .dll from memory but once up and running it runs very well.

[Warhawk]

Try Windows 10. I remember Protel99SE was a big sluggish with 3D rendering on windows 7.
8.1 and 10 are fine, it flies, but I suspect that was an OpenGL issue rather than a 2d draw issue.

I went from integrated graphics in a Haswell i7 to a dedicated Nvidia 750Ti graphics card and it made zero difference in Protel (the odd 3d game was a different matter!!!).

I though that Protel 99SE is not stable under windows 7 although you install it in a compatibility mode. Or is it ?

Yes, what ever you do don't use the set-up under windows 7 and above it screws with the OS in a strange way! What you do is install on XP and just copy all the files over by hand. You have to mess around with the .ini files to get the libraries in and register a few .dll from memory but once up and running it runs very well.

Wow ! Excellent information !

[free_electron]

OpenGL ?