PCBWay - Gerber Format

[Wilksey]

Hi,
I decided to give PCBWay a go as they didn't charge extra for the mask colour, however, the board is a custom shape rather than a rectangle / square 4 corners shape, i've designed many of these in the past with complex edges etc, and some of the other Chinese fabs have done them without an issue.

However, I got an email from PCBWay saying that my Gerber has "copper attributes" and needs to be "line attributes" on the board outline, well I wasn't under the impression that standard RS274 had "attributes" and that X2 had some.

I've looked at KiCAD - KC5 was used to generate the board, and I can't see any option for lines etc.

Has anyone else successfully had boards made by PCBWay of non standard 4 corner shapes, or do I need to go back to one of the other suppliers that I know can produce them?  From the emails I have been getting it doesn't sound like they can produce the outline on something other than a 4 corner output.

[kizmit99]

I sent a board to them yesterday that was not a simple square and it had rounded corners (both inside and outside radii) - they didn't seem to have any issues with it.  It passed their review, I haven't received the boards yet though...

I used Kicad5, just defined the board outline on the EdgeCuts layer using the lines and curve tools.  I plotted the gerbers with basically default settings, then just zipped everything and sent to them (didn't change any of the file extensions, etc).

I was a little concerned that their online ordering doesn't show you a preview, but used OshPark to review the package before paying on PCBWay.

[SiliconWizard]

KiCad 5 has an option to generate Gerber X2 - are you sure you didn't have it checked?
Another option that seems to be checked by default (at least on my install) is "Gerber Protel extensions". Try and uncheck this if it's checked.

Last thing to look for: what layer did you put the board outline onto? It's recommended to put that in the "Edge.Cuts" layer.

[Wilksey]

Yes, I used the bitmap converted, which I have used a lot of times in the past, changed from silk to edge.cuts layer, and generated Gerbers with protel extensions, which is how i've always done it, checked the Gerber in an external viewer (ViewMate) to confirm it is OK, all seems OK, the layer is complete etc.

Mine passed Review stage, but now in production stage they are saying that the Gerber has "copper attributes" and not "line attributes", I am definitely not generating X2.

Just wondered if anyone else had come across this before.

Only difference is I am now using V5.0.0 stable rather than V4.07 stable of KC, but upon looking at the actual Gerber itself it seems fine, just defines a load of XY coordinates.
 

[SiliconWizard]

Could you post the "offending" Gerber file so that I can take a look?

[Wilksey]

I've cancelled the PCBWay order and re-ordered with the company that did the fab previously, so i'll see what they say, if they say there's an issue then i'll redo it, but if they just get on and do it like previously then i'll know it's just PCBWay!

[xzswq21]

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[Wilksey]

$30 vs PCBWay $5 (free for first order), and $10 more for shipping on WellPCB.

I'll see what the other company can do, they are cheaper than WellPCB, but not as cheap as PCBWay.

[xzswq21]

$30 vs PCBWay $5 (free for first order), and $10 more for shipping on WellPCB.

I'll see what the other company can do, they are cheaper than WellPCB, but not as cheap as PCBWay.

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for multilayer PCBs you will found Wellpcb is very economical.

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if you have any doubt please check pcbshopper.com then check the price in wellpcb.com
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for my 6-layer PCB the cost was more than $1000 but wellPCB took only $180.


Good Luck.

[floobydust]

Ensure your board outline is a dedicated layer, very thin trace with no gaps or overlap, no extra polygons, no orphaned entities etc. It should be a simple outline the router can follow.
Then the hard part is telling them which layer is your board outline. Their English and communications are a bit poor.

It's not the Gerber format, I've sent different ones and they don't complain. The origin, leading/trailing zeros, metric, imperial etc. I think they are used to it.

[Wilksey]

I even sent them the GM1 layer afterwards I thought they couldn't find it at first, then they said it had to have "line attributes" and mine had "copper attributes", to which I have no idea what that means!

Their response was quite shitty (a lot of CAPS used!) so I asked them for a refund and i'll go elsewhere, I wasn't very courteous with my response to them either after their last email!

[SiliconWizard]

They are not the best with the english language, but I've found PCBWay's service to be excellent otherwise. My last order was a 2oz 2-layer board without any hitch and turnaround time was exceptional for a standard, non-express order (5 days shipping included and I ordered on a sunday and live far away from China!).

That's why I offered to take a look at your Gerber files. There must be something that confuses their CAM tools. You'll find that many PCB manufacturers have different tools that are more or less compliant. That's just how it is. And most of the high-volume ones will not waste even 10 minutes to figure out what's "wrong" (to their CAM tools) with your files or not... They just can't.

[Wilksey]

I might send them one I have already had fabricated to see if they can read it.

I would check myself if I knew what tools they were using, does anybody know what they mean by "Copper attribute" or "Line attribute"? 

[Siwastaja]

No, I think no one is going to be able to guess what this "copper attribute" thing means. We would need to see your files.

If I need to guess, it could mean that you have put the outline on the copper layer. But I assume you haven't? That's so obvious, yet some people do it.

The communication with many PCB fabs is what it is... So seeing the files is actually more important than the "error report" you get from them. It can be any random words.

Never had any problem with PCBway. Dozens of orders, with different kinds of routing.

I always draw routing on a separate layer using lines/arcs with the thickness of the expected routing tool (e.g., 2mm); this way the file looks exactly as expected on screen. Then I name the file to make the point, for example: routing_2mm_bit.gbr

This style has clearly worked; no fab has ever asked any clarification, and always produced the correct result.

I know some use very thin lines to denote the resulting routed edges instead of the routing tool route directly. This should work as well.

[SiliconWizard]

Absolutely.

I remember having sent them Gerber files in which the board outline was present on all layers though, and they didn't have a problem with that either.

So I'd suspect either there are actually misleading X2 attributes in his files, or maybe he has designed the outline as a filled area instead of just lines. Outlines/routing should be only lines. That's something that I believe is even recommended in the Gerber specs.

[Wilksey]

Outline was only on 1 layer, not filled, just "lines", on the edge,cuts layer in KiCAD.

However, they sent me an email after I requested a refund saying they COULD make it after all, and that fabrication would start ASAP!

WTF? 

Have I missed something?

[Siwastaja]

These guys are quite busy doing cheap boards all the time. I guess you are allocated customer service time slot of about 1 minute. If any error happens in the process, it's typical they just mechanically write the same reply over and over again, because this only takes literally seconds from any customer service worker, while actually looking at the issue might take minutes from a more experienced person; and they already did it, so what are the chances the result would be any different the next time?

I guess mostly people do the same stupid mistakes over and over again. If I need to guess, the message you got is about having no cutout layer, but having the cutout on the copper layer, which would be typical for many beginners. This diagnosis was definitely in error, but likely, most of the time, it's not.

Apparently, when you asked for a refund, they got an incentive to have a second look and by doing that, found their mistake.

It would help tremendously if they recognized top-10 issues and worked out proper English "error messages" for such cases, using the standard terminology such as "solder mask sliver" instead of "green oil" - so they could copy-paste the proper responses. They have professional website using fairly good language and relevant terminology; they should extend that translation to the most commonly occurring email correspondences.

My 0.02€.

[Wilksey]

Well, I sent the same files to the fabricator that did my previous boards and they are happily fabricating them without fuss.

I double checked the Gerbers when they first emailed me, I definitely sent them the correct files, in the correct format and it was the outline / cutout, not a copper pour or anything, so I believe they were just throwing me a red herring.

But you're right, I thought "copper attribute" meant copper pour, and I thought they were looking at the bottom layer (poured copper) by mistake so I sent them just the gm1 file which is the outline alone, and they still said it had "copper attributes", despite me sending them a screen shot of the Gerber viewer and asking them to explain!

[Wilksey]

UPDATE:

The other board house I sent my original zip file to has managed to ship the boards without any fuss or hassle, so I have now called PCBWay out on it, they claim that their engineer (bear in mind, first order, free PCB's, just pay for shipping) has had to redraw BY HAND, my board outline, it's not a square PCB, it's got curves and arcs etc, and they say that usually the engineers refuse to do it, but on this occasion they did, and now my boards are shipped! Woohoo!

Bollocks did they have to redraw it, I suspect, the other manufacturer said they were away until the 7th Oct, that PCBWay were behind or some of their people were also away longer than they stated and were stalling for time, because as soon as my order was being processed by the other company, PCBWay suddenly "fixed" my files, on the same day no less.