To license or not to license?

[kvresto]

Has anyone made up their widget using a pirated version of Altium Designer and put it into an application? Everyone uses a pirated version right? At least for development?
What are the chances you can get found out for something not too popular? And what are the repercussions from Altium if you get caught?

KiCad or DIPtrace? Ive heard so many horror stories for both, I dont know what to believe.

Any suggestions?

Thanks
kvresto.

[tszaboo]

Where are you from?
If USA, probably lawsuit for millions or execution or somethin.

[Kjelt]

Everyone uses a pirated version right?

That is easy to answer: NO not everyone uses a pirated version or the company would already be long out of business. 

[kvresto]

this is Australia, we don't execute anyone here, I think? at least not since the 60's

[Rerouter]

Kicad is my preferred option, the part/symbol editor takes a little getting used to, but its solid.

[EEVblog]

Altium Circuit Maker is free with no commercial restriction.

[Jeroen3]

There is a thing called the BSA who performs "raids" or audits at companies to check if you've got your licenses right. If not, you get a settling proposal, a limited time (1 month iirc) to get it fixed. After that, they can start a civil case.
In many countries copying software is not allowed by law, but not enforced. It is the same category that pirated multimedia is in.

Going after an individual would have little gain. I think most individuals settle, if they're not pirating 4 or 5 digit price software.
If they are using 5 digit price software illegally, and it comes to court, the software company has to prove loss.
For example, a student using pirated Altium did not gain from it (he's not a business) other that he/she learned how to use Altium. There would be no significant loss if you ask me.

Sometimes, in some countries, such case is often used to set an example. By claiming several million dollars worth of damage.
They know a student or hobbyist is unable to afford this, they won't gain anything except publicity. Positive or Negative depending on which side of the FOSS line you're on.

^{Question for the mods: why are newlines allowed in the topictitle?}

[kvresto]

Thanks Jeroen3, I'm not sure who (BSA) or other does the policing in Australia.

I haven't used Altium Circuit Maker, and I believe you cant store locally, and everything must be public? is this the case?

[PCB.Wiz]

I haven't used Altium Circuit Maker, and I believe you cant store locally, and everything must be public? is this the case?

 Of course, CAD vendors have to protect their turf, so expect plenty of fish-hooks in the lower-end offerings.
A classic case of 'the BIG print giveth, and the fine print taketh away'

 In most cases the Database is quite closed, and certainly not two-way, (otherwise you could use the lower cost tools in most cases, and have far fewer seats of the top of the line)
 This also means ASCII import/export and Scripting are often removed too...

 That also means users have to hope the Corporate Bean-Counters do not wake up in 2017, and decide to prune the loss leader, as it was having too much negative impact on mainstream sales...

 For many users, removing ASCII import/export from their flow, is simply too risky.

 I found a thread about the fish-hooks in Circuit Maker here ...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/circuit-maker-it's-dead-jim!/

[kvresto]

That also means users have to hope the Corporate Bean-Counters do not wake up in 2017

Hope its much latter.

Great advice blueskull. Good old hip pocket common sense.

Who has anything to do with Altium Circuit Studio. E14 has a single user license for just over $600. I know there is a free demo available.

EDIT: $600 maintenance license.

[nctnico]

I like the cracked copies though. No hassles with node locks, dongles, licenses, etc. It also keeps the original software copies in a nice shrink wrap.

[kvresto]

Where? I can only see the $2999 option.

ooops, your right!

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Do not use pirate software to start a company, or you will pay more later.
Altium has a strategy in China that allows small company and students to use cracked version, they even made promise to studios and individuals that they will not take legal actions to them (just like what M$ did), and managed to conquer 90%+ academic market, but when the company grows or the student gets a job in a big company, well, Altium has made A LOT OF MONEY in China by suing big companies, we are talking about millions per offense, enough that it worth them to move their HQ to Shanghai.
So, unless you want to stay under the radar or stay small, then be ware of it.

I think it's a case of learning to live with the fact that they couldn't secure the product. So they had to live with this sort of quasi free pricing model.
I doubt they made promises not to take legal action. Who would make that sort of promise in a company anyway? the legal department - No, the CEO - No.
Did they successfully sue someone, in China? I would be interested if you had any details of this.

Kicad is great if you want to do just the gerbers to make the pcbs and stencils, but if you want someone to quote for a full production run then they may insist on Altium.
I think Kicad is on the up, so I would use this if you can't justify buying Altium.
Though maybe Altium would give you a demo period if you contact them.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

BTW I thought they shifted to USA again. But apparently that is just RnD. It doesn't say where the HQ are.

I doubt they made promises not to take legal action. Who would make that sort of promise in a company anyway? the legal department - No, the CEO - No.

Heard this from a Chinese EE website years ago, when they first moved to China.

Did they successfully sue someone, in China? I would be interested if you had any details of this.

A lot. Altium China's social media exposes similar cases often.

Sorry that is not details.
I meant something like an official court judgement online, or someone reporting on a specific judgement. This would at least mention all the parties involved, and give some indication of the settlement. How else would we know it is millions?

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Fair enough, I'll have a look in a few hours, gotto go now.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

well the link to http://www.cnsymm.com/2015/0514/8891.html is very out of date (2008 for the original article), and is about Siemens not Altium but does it specify a fine. 800000 yuan. Not sure of the exchange rate then.

the link http://www.eefocus.com/eda-pcb/334320-Altium

Under the auspices of the court, the parties reached a few days ago has been successful mediation. The companies pledged to stop using, uninstall and destroy unauthorized Protel and Altium Designer Series software, and pay Altium genuine software procurement funds totaling 870,000 yuan.

My reading of this is that there is no fine, so no law proved to be broken but the unamed company agreed to buy about US$140k worth of licences.
Also this is just a media statement it doesn't really prove they even got the licence $140k fees.

So any my querying that Altium made a lot of money in China still stands.

So any my querying that Altium made a lot of money suing companies in China still stands. This is what I meant.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Just looked at the balances sheet 2015.

http://www.altium.com/company/investor-relations/publications-and-reports/annual-reports

They did make US$9.6M in revenue and about 50% of that was profit. So obviously many licences are sold.

In China copyright holders can not sue users for too much fine. The best they can get is (maybe) 3x the value, and that does not happen most of the time. Getting 1x of the software's worth is good enough.

Yes totally agree, I think Altium is realistic about this.

[kvresto]

I think Kicad is on the up, so I would use this if you can't justify buying Altium.

I'm leaning towards Kicad at the moment. Although I want to explore RS Design Spark, I know nothing at this stage, but what I'm interested in learning is whether this has any cloud centric stuff associated with it, or is it really free and easy to use?

EDIT: I think CM is great if all your interested in is open source. In such an environment you supply the files and other relevant docs when you put your product out there in the market. I cant see anything really wrong with that. But it cant be open source for all your projects, you need something else.

[PCB.Wiz]

I'm leaning towards Kicad at the moment. Although I want to explore RS Design Spark, I know nothing at this stage, but what I'm interested in learning is whether this has any cloud centric stuff associated with it, or is it really free and easy to use?

DS looks to be Windows only, and there do seem to be some issues around the Activation side :

http://www.rs-online.com/designspark/electronics/eng/knowledge-item/DesignSpark-PCB-Activation

Then there is this
"Although there is no charge for the software, the user must register with the website to unlock disabled functions and the program displays advertisements which must be acknowledged before the user can begin working."

Unclear if DS has a KiCad like Shove Router, or if it has inbuilt Scripting Support ?

So if you are ok with that, the best idea is to try DS and kiCad side by side, and let us know what you find.

[Red Squirrel]

I've been working on trying to learn Kicad, but I find certain aspects of it tedious, but I guess once I figure it all out and get the hang of it it may not be so bad.

As far as using a pirated product to make money, unless it puts some kind of signature in the gerber files indicating it's pirated I don't imagine anyone would care.  But if you are going to make money I would definitely put some of that money aside to eventually pay for it.  Then just pretend you never pirated it and use the paid version from now on.  Think of the pirated version as being an extended demo.    It will at least get your feet off the ground to get started.

[tggzzz]

Although I want to explore RS Design Spark, I know nothing at this stage, but what I'm interested in learning is whether this has any cloud centric stuff associated with it, or is it really free and easy to use?

I use DS6, and haven't bothered to upgrade to the latest version. No comments about later versions.

The adverts are unobtrusive, and are no more than an "extended splash screen". However, they require an internet connection, so DS can't be used offline.

Overall the package is easy to learn and use. There are a few things I'd like to improve, but not enough for me to have moved to a later version.
 
The schematic and PCB layout work well enough under Wine; I haven't tried the 3D CAD models. I see one crash every 2 or 3 days. Since I'm from an era what ctrl-S was the most used key, that doesn't bother me.

The free online schematic/PCB library isn't as useful as I hoped, but it is easy enough to create your own schematic symbols.

If you are a hobbyist, since there are no arbitrary limits to trip you up, I suggest giving it a go. For professional use other alternatives may be better.

[nctnico]

If you really want to put your gadget into some real application, then copyright becomes an issue. Since every business needs some money to start, why not consider the license of AD as an investment?

If you are going to spend that kind of money I'd look carefully into other packages as well. My experience with Altium Designer has not been very positive.

[Jeroen3]

If you really want to put your gadget into some real application, then copyright becomes an issue. Since every business needs some money to start, why not consider the license of AD as an investment?

The weird thing is, it's easy to get mangement to approve buying >100 dollar hand tools or expensive machinery, but buying software is very hard to get approved.

[nctnico]

If you really want to put your gadget into some real application, then copyright becomes an issue. Since every business needs some money to start, why not consider the license of AD as an investment?

The weird thing is, it's easy to get mangement to approve buying >100 dollar hand tools or expensive machinery, but buying software is very hard to get approved.

IMHO if a company can't pony up the money to get good tools and software (and you don't have to buy both new!) then how well is that business doing?

Still when buying software there are also the maintenance issues. For my own business I don't buy software for which there is no cracked copy available or software which has a time limited license. It has to be a one time deal and I have to be able to install on a new/different PC without intervention of a help desk which may not even exist in 10 years from now (when I still need to be able to support an old project).

[kvresto]

So if you are ok with that, the best idea is to try DS and kiCad side by side, and let us know what you find.

yep, I think that's a good idea.

I would always prefer to get what is probably the most employer requested skills in Australia, that is Altium Designer. But I can get by with what I have, to keep some skills up, and use something else that wont land me in court, just to get started. Who knows if it all works out, after I buy my 1st BMW M3, I might fork out for a license.

[tggzzz]

So if you are ok with that, the best idea is to try DS and kiCad side by side, and let us know what you find.

Caveat: assuming sufficient time is available to become appropriately familiar with both tools.

The definition of "appropriately" is left to the assessor, of course.

[PCB.Wiz]

yep, I think that's a good idea.

I would always prefer to get what is probably the most employer requested skills in Australia, that is Altium Designer. But I can get by with what I have, to keep some skills up, and use something else that wont land me in court, just to get started.

For sure, on a CV having more than one CAD tool listed shows you are flexible and can learn
Even better, if your portfolio includes real PCBs too...

Some vendors Systems have Eval Modes, which means you can train-up on simple circuits, with no license worries.

[kvresto]

so what do you drive now blueskull?

[kvresto]

still a good choice of car.

[JugglingElectrons]

There isn't much we can do to stop you from pirating, but the least we can do is give some advice (sorry I don't have much advice when it comes to EDA, I'm in your boat trying to select a software package to come to after learning on NI's Multisim and Ultiboard in University).

I understand the desire to pirate, especially when the free versions have restrictions that make you feel that you aren't going to be trying the software in the truest sense.

If you are just personally studying some basic circuit principles on pirated software I highly doubt the software coders are going to have much problem with that.
If you are using the software long term for personal use, I can see where this would start to raise more concern from others.
Once you start using tools that somebody else made to design things that can make you money, then you are definitely getting into some dangerous territory if you have not purchased the software. I wouldn't mind you using software for your own personal needs but I do believe that the hardworkers should be compensated for the effort they put into the code if you start making a profit from their work.

My personal opinion about pirating is that you should be able to try before you buy, especially with something that may cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars. As blueskull said, allowing students and some small businesses to use cracked software greatly increases the number of people exposed to the software and can allow it to capture a significant portion of the market. The idea here is that if they use the cracked software, they are more likely to purchase that software in the future because of familiarity. If you like music you downloaded, purchase the album or go see the artist live in concert or do both and get their autograph. Likewise with circuit design software, if you enjoyed the design tools and features of the full version, invest in the software once you know it is right for you.

[b_force]

Interesting question an subject.

My personal opinion is that many companies ask ridiculous prices for certain licenses.
Prices which are pretty much unaffordable for starting companies/freelancers.

There are opensource/freeware alternatives. But compared to the well known paid programs, most of them are a big joke, just a toy.
Fine if you want to make a little shield or mini board, but as soon as your design is getting more complex, forget it.
To unfortunate, because mostly this is only because of the (crappy) layout and GUI.
Second, in many cases you do need to use certain standards for manufacturers and clients for example.
Think about autocad/solidwork files etc, or just clients who like to have the original design files so they can edit minor things in the future.
That means you need to have Altium in 90% of the cases (to unfortunate, I really dislike Altium)

I think all of the expensive license stuff is a bad thing.
It gives well established companies even more benefits and lead, because they have the money and resources to back it up.
Therefore it's difficult to get fair and healthy competition.

There are some software companies who try to be more reasonable.
In the video, audio en photo editing industry for example, you can get just a plan and pay around $20-50 a month and can stop and/or restart your contract whenever you want.
This is really great for freelancers who don't always work with the same software or have a couple of months other work to do.
I am hoping we will see something similar in the future but I doubt it.

With some creativity there are ways to get around the feared 'sanctimonious' raids or just for using one license that multiple people can use.
(normally I would use another word for a certain kind of state police, but I don't think everyone shares the same kind humor here)

To give a personal answer if it's fair to use pirated software I always ask if it's fair that companies rip off there employees or costumers?
(this is especially true in the music and film industry)

[tggzzz]

I'm leaning towards Kicad at the moment. Although I want to explore RS Design Spark, I know nothing at this stage, but what I'm interested in learning is whether this has any cloud centric stuff associated with it, or is it really free and easy to use?

DS looks to be Windows only, and there do seem to be some issues around the Activation side :

http://www.rs-online.com/designspark/electronics/eng/knowledge-item/DesignSpark-PCB-Activation

Then there is this
"Although there is no charge for the software, the user must register with the website to unlock disabled functions and the program displays advertisements which must be acknowledged before the user can begin working."

Unclear if DS has a KiCad like Shove Router, or if it has inbuilt Scripting Support ?

So if you are ok with that, the best idea is to try DS and kiCad side by side, and let us know what you find.

I use DS6; haven't tried 7. The schematic and pcb under wine. The adverts are in a splash screen only, but it does mean you have to be connected to the net at least during startup. RS uses DS as a way of funnelling you towards their purchasing, by having libraries on their website.

Presumably, as with everything like this, they could turn the servers off, e.g. MS PlaysForSure (sic).

[mstevens]

I haven't used Altium Circuit Maker, and I believe you cant store locally, and everything must be public? is this the case?

Are you scared of someone stealing your design much like pirating is stealing software? ...Interesting.