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EEVblog => EEVblog Specific => Topic started by: 5ky on July 19, 2015, 06:39:55 pm

Title: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: 5ky on July 19, 2015, 06:39:55 pm

Figured being into electronics and having a solar array on your own home, you'd be pissed about this.  Perhaps a good topic for a blab?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27908-australian-government-sets-up-renewable-energy-body-to-fail/ (https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn27908-australian-government-sets-up-renewable-energy-body-to-fail/)

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: JohnMoosenl on September 17, 2015, 10:09:19 am

The idea is that these renewable energy industries must be able to economically operate without being heavily subsidized from any government. Emissions have nothing to do with it, thats just marketing bla bla.

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 17, 2015, 10:29:56 am

Sadly were going to see more and more of this as renewable energy become more viable.  Governments don't want renewable energy to possibly threaten big oil.   If it gets to a point where more people start putting solar panels on their roofs or using wind turbines they'll start to make it illegal.  There are already places in the states with HOAs where this is the case.  Some places also don't allow you to collect rain water because it's considered owned by the city so they could easily do the same with wind or sun.   

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: Psi on September 17, 2015, 10:47:55 am

Some places might be like that, but most countries welcome renewable/cheap energy solutions.
And the simple fact is that something has to be done to handle the electric car revolution. The grid just cant handle everyone having/charging an electric car.

I think Tesla have the right idea with a home battery bank.  This way you can charge it up however you want, solar/wind etc.
It can run your house direct most off the time as well as fast charge your electric car.
It only needs to draw power from the grid if total output exceeds total input, and even then it's more of a constant trickle of electricity from the grid. Exactly what the grid needs, no more building to peak demand!

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: dr.diesel on September 17, 2015, 10:57:29 am

Quote from: Red Squirrel on September 17, 2015, 10:29:56 am

Some places also don't allow you to collect rain water because it's considered owned by the city so they could easily do the same with wind or sun.

Seriously?  WTF, that is insane. 

Like Dave said, I want off this world.

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: tggzzz on September 17, 2015, 11:37:02 am

There's a significant problem with wind/water/solar renewables: intermittency. That requires an equivalent amount of conventional plant to be available when the renewables aren't. Conventional plant cannot simply be turned on and off - it reduces their life/reliability and increases costs. The industry term for this is "dispatch", and there's a reasonable explanation of it here: http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limitations.pdf (http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/Renewable%20Energy%20Limitations.pdf)

The key point is that renewables should be responsible for the costs of keeping that conventional plant available for when the renewables aren't "doing their job".

Looking at the total UK wind power generation over the past year, from http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/download.php (http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/download.php) , shows the probability of wind power.  Notice particularly the traditional statement that "if the wind isn't blowing here then it will be blowing there" is demonstrably false.

From that we can see

Percentage of Time		Power is Less Than This Percentage of Peak Power		Comment
12%		10%		Once a week you have "lost" 90% of the wind output
50%		35%		Every other day you have "lost" 65% of the wind output

And that "whoops, sorry, we can't do it today" "ungenerated" power has to come from conventional plant.

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: AndreasF on September 17, 2015, 12:07:13 pm

Quote from: tggzzz on September 17, 2015, 11:37:02 am

From that we can see

Percentage of Time		Power is Less Than This Percentage of Peak Power		Comment
12%		10%		Once a week you have "lost" 90% of the wind output
50%		35%		Every other day you have "lost" 65% of the wind output

And that "whoops, sorry, we can't do it today" "ungenerated" power has to come from conventional plant.

Just saying.  ;)

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: tggzzz on September 17, 2015, 02:02:14 pm

Quote from: AndreasF on September 17, 2015, 12:07:13 pm

Quote from: tggzzz on September 17, 2015, 11:37:02 am

From that we can see

Percentage of Time		Power is Less Than This Percentage of Peak Power		Comment
12%		10%		Once a week you have "lost" 90% of the wind output
50%		35%		Every other day you have "lost" 65% of the wind output

And that "whoops, sorry, we can't do it today" "ungenerated" power has to come from conventional plant.

Just saying.  ;)

I'm not sure why you think that is important.

The peak power is the important figure, since it defines the total range of "replacement" power that must be sourced from conventional plant when renewables have given up the ghost. In the UK the wind power varies from 0 to 6.8GW. So 6.8GW must be available when wind doesn't deliver on its promises.

The mean power is relevant for other purposes, but the peak and minimum are very important figures that "the greens" like to ignore.

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: neotesla on September 17, 2015, 10:15:48 pm

Likewise, the "tech fixers" love to put too much emphasis on baseload power (https://theconversation.com/baseload-power-is-a-myth-even-intermittent-renewables-will-work-13210).

Everybody likes to grind their own ax, while in reality, not any individual "one thing" will solve everything at once. (Eg. see here (http://cmi.princeton.edu/wedges/)).

Title: Re: Australian PM bans renewable energy body from investing in wind
Post by: HackedFridgeMagnet on September 17, 2015, 11:10:14 pm

Anyway Tony is gone now, and hopefully this ridiculous limitation will go too.