Author Topic: Degree necessary for EE field?  (Read 54036 times)

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Offline XynxNet

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #75 on: June 03, 2015, 08:27:44 pm »
Quote
"I never took a course in electronics."
Paul Horowitz  interview with Timor Fried @ 3:16  https://youtu.be/iCI3B5eT9NA?t=3m16s
He is just a physics professor... not the typical example of an undegreed person mh?
 

Offline Alexei.Polkhanov

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #76 on: June 04, 2015, 12:01:40 am »
Quote
"I never took a course in electronics."
Paul Horowitz  interview with Timor Fried @ 3:16  https://youtu.be/iCI3B5eT9NA?t=3m16s
He is just a physics professor... not the typical example of an undegreed person mh?

Exactly, I was thinking - isn't Ph.D. in physics sort of implies/includes electronics/mechanics/acoustics/optics/control systems and other sorts of engineering disciplines?

Most knowledgeable electronics engineer I have ever known had Ph.D. in Astrophysics - he spent 15 years sitting in remote areas of Chilean Andes next to radio telescopes building state of the art helium cooled radio receivers. He did not even considered electronics as a separate field - just something that he had to do to "get the stuff running". He is a superior C programmer too.

 

Offline Doc38343

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #77 on: June 05, 2015, 03:11:08 am »
That was, by far, the big takeaway from the interview. Since I am self-educated, it really struck a chord. I have a chance I guess.

Yeah being one of those little guy self employed guys my self, i don't have a degree however I am a sponge for learning and i'm 52 now and my memory and absorption for learning things has increased exponentially. I can thank my father for being the kind of dad who stuck a wrench in my hand by the time I could walk LOL He always encouraged everyone around him to "If you want to do that, figure it out. To figure it out you've got to ask questions." He meant ask YOURSELF as much as others and boy has it served me well thru the years.

If I could have gone to school to be an EE I certainly would have. My life path took me another direction but hey you always return to things you love eventually. I probably will never design much more than perhaps a guitar stomp box or a pre-amplifier for a mic. Maybe some arduino LED controller for my bike that does something cool and original.. but mainly if I can take a board and repair it, that is one of the most satisfying things of my entire life.... next to my wife of course!
#electronicsROCK
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #78 on: June 05, 2015, 06:31:47 am »
What I see with many self-taught people is that they never learned or got mentored on how to structure their work. What results is total chaos.

I saw this first hand. A few self-taught engineers that were smart and capable - but only by themselves. The work was so chaotic that no one could work with them because they would go about solving problems in such a unique way, that outsiders could not understand. In some cases, this can work. In my case, I have put very considerable effort into being able to integrate into a team. As my present business grows, I want to peel off the tasks and assign to to someone else without much loss in translation. A far off dream......

This has been my experience with many EE qualified Engineers.
The first bunch I worked with as a Tech back in the '60s were very clear & precise in their work,but this seemed to disappear with later graduates.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2015, 06:36:52 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #79 on: June 05, 2015, 07:25:59 am »
;\14
Quote
"I never took a course in electronics."
Paul Horowitz  interview with Timor Fried @ 3:16  https://youtu.be/iCI3B5eT9NA?t=3m16s

And that, of course, is the point of a formal education. Your capacity is in no way limited to what you are taught, it is limited only by what you can learn. I don't imagine Richard Feynman ever took a course in electronics either, but I'm equally sure he could design, build and troubleshoot electronic circuits quite comfortably.

Precisely!

I wish technicians could realise that.

Technician != engineer, fortunately. Both have unique characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages. Vive la difference!



I wish Engineers would realise that real Technicians do have formal education.

They do "learn on the job" to some extent,but a Technician with just "hands on" experience will be at a loss
with more complex problems.
This is why there is a classroom component to Technician Courses,certainly of the kind which produced Techs during most of my work history.

Those who did not have the advantage of an Employer funded training course self funded their training by attending Technical Schools.

Latterly, so-called "techs" who are just taught "Core Competencies" in the "monkey see,monkey do"manner have become more common,& I would agree that these people are quite limited in their capabilities.


 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #80 on: June 05, 2015, 08:25:46 am »
;\14
Quote
"I never took a course in electronics."
Paul Horowitz  interview with Timor Fried @ 3:16  https://youtu.be/iCI3B5eT9NA?t=3m16s

And that, of course, is the point of a formal education. Your capacity is in no way limited to what you are taught, it is limited only by what you can learn. I don't imagine Richard Feynman ever took a course in electronics either, but I'm equally sure he could design, build and troubleshoot electronic circuits quite comfortably.
Precisely!
I wish technicians could realise that.
Technician != engineer, fortunately. Both have unique characteristics, advantages, and disadvantages. Vive la difference!

I wish Engineers would realise that real Technicians do have formal education.

True, just as real engineers need practicla experience.

Quote
They do "learn on the job" to some extent,but a Technician with just "hands on" experience will be at a loss with more complex problems.
This is why there is a classroom component to Technician Courses,certainly of the kind which produced Techs during most of my work history.

Both engineers and technicians need theory and practice. One without the other is either "mental masturbation" or "blind fumbling".

Quote
Latterly, so-called "techs" who are just taught "Core Competencies" in the "monkey see,monkey do"manner have become more common,& I would agree that these people are quite limited in their capabilities.

That's also true for engineers, of course. It is very difficult to determine how that has changed over time - old farts are both right and wrong when they think things were better when they young.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #81 on: June 05, 2015, 05:27:58 pm »
Two things have clearly changed over time.  First, the body of knowledge is continually growing, so the necessary, or at least useful core competencies has grown and will continue to grow.  To me core competencies means things that will likely be useful over an entire career.  Maths, ohms law, networks, written communication and so on.  An engineer graduating in the 1930s would not have needed or been exposed to all of the maths associated with Lebesque integration(Impulse functions, Laplace transforms and so on).  One graduating in the early 1950s would have had no exposure to programming languages etc.  Engineering level understanding of quantum mechanics has become more and more important since the 1960s/1970s.  And so on.  Addition of these skills has not generally allowed elimination of earlier skills (differential equations, Fourier transforms etc).

The second thing is that the pace of technology change has quickened.  The application like things that might have lasted an entire career in the 1930s just don't happen anymore.  Knowing how to bias and operate a vacuum tube was an application technology that was broadly useful in the field for 30 or more years.  Use of large arrays of discrete logic chips lasted 20 years or less.  Programming languages/development environments seem to have half lifes measured in months or years, not decades.  (Remember Algol, Smalltalk, APL etc?)

Both of these changes are a result of good things, but they place more pressure on trying to identify an appropriate foundation and absorb it during degree studies, and up the ante on continued learning, either through formal programs or through various independent learning methods such as this forum.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #82 on: June 05, 2015, 06:10:40 pm »
Two things have clearly changed over time.  First, the body of knowledge is continually growing, so the necessary, or at least useful core competencies has grown and will continue to grow.  To me core competencies means things that will likely be useful over an entire career.  Maths, ohms law, networks, written communication and so on.  An engineer graduating in the 1930s would not have needed or been exposed to all of the maths associated with Lebesque integration(Impulse functions, Laplace transforms and so on).  One graduating in the early 1950s would have had no exposure to programming languages etc.  Engineering level understanding of quantum mechanics has become more and more important since the 1960s/1970s.  And so on.  Addition of these skills has not generally allowed elimination of earlier skills (differential equations, Fourier transforms etc).

The second thing is that the pace of technology change has quickened.  The application like things that might have lasted an entire career in the 1930s just don't happen anymore.  Knowing how to bias and operate a vacuum tube was an application technology that was broadly useful in the field for 30 or more years.  Use of large arrays of discrete logic chips lasted 20 years or less.  Programming languages/development environments seem to have half lifes measured in months or years, not decades.  (Remember Algol, Smalltalk, APL etc?)

Both of these changes are a result of good things, but they place more pressure on trying to identify an appropriate foundation and absorb it during degree studies, and up the ante on continued learning, either through formal programs or through various independent learning methods such as this forum.

Summary: choose technology wisely, and it will remain mainstream for the majority of your career.

Most of the things I learned in my late 70s EE degree are still relevant. I did, however, take a great deal of care in choosing my degree, and there were many that I thought were worthless.

Returning to electronics after 20 years away, I am very surprised at how little has changed. Most of the changes can be classified as smaller/faster/cheaper, e.g. an Arduino class MCU is equivalent to a Z80 + memory + peripherals, plus an ICE for debugging - exactly what I was using 33 years ago. And it is still programmed in C! And the x86 is still important.

Analogue is pretty much the same, except that frequencies can now be significantly higher. You need to understand microwave circuit techniques for analogue and quantised analogue (a.k.a. digital) circuitry. The best general purpose book is still The Art Of Electronics - I have both the first and third editions, so I can compare them!

As for languages, I have used many from assemblers, HDLs, procedural, mathematical, and OO languages. If you understand their foundations and the strengths/weaknesses of each, you can pick up just about everything very quickly.

I chose carefully and ignored this month's fashionable language, which meant I have principally used C (1982-to date), Smalltalk (1988-1994), and Java (1996-to date). I ran away from monstrosities such as Delphi (= not C), C++ (if that's the answer then the question is wrong), PERL (for the same reason as APL!). As for HDLs, there's not too much difference between HiLo (early 80s) and Verilog/VHDL.

Development machines were originally PDP-11+Unix (made by Microsoft, who else), then Sun, then HP-UX, now Linux. (Still running that abortion, the XWindow system!)

So what has changed significantly? More DSP. Faster ADCs/DACs. Very low power. IDEs (where modern IDEs have now caught up with early 90s Smalltalk IDEs). The net.


There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #83 on: June 05, 2015, 09:48:00 pm »
Relevancy also depends on what you are doing.  FORTRAN is still the best language for engineering and scientific computing as it is still the only one that has built in support for complex numbers.  C++ actually has some relevance here because with operator overloading it is possible to write readable complex processing programs.    Since it is not widely used the quality of the routines still suffers relative to FORTRAN.  Other languages that support overloading have the same hope and even less support.

X86 will remain relevant for years more, just as COBOL has remained relevant.  But X86 is largely useless to the cell phone crowd and other broad swathes of our profession.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #84 on: June 05, 2015, 11:46:07 pm »
Relevancy also depends on what you are doing.  FORTRAN is still the best language for engineering and scientific computing as it is still the only one that has built in support for complex numbers. 

While true, that's not the only reason. C and C++ have pointer arithmetic that significantly reduces the ability of the compiler to optimise. Have a look at HP's Dynamo compiler report for some truely astounding results.

Quote
C++ actually has some relevance here because with operator overloading it is possible to write readable complex processing programs.   

Ha! See http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/operator.html for why that isn't quite true in practice. I'm also particularly fond of the "const correctness" section http://yosefk.com/c++fqa/const.html

Quote
Since it is not widely used the quality of the routines still suffers relative to FORTRAN. 

See above.

Quote
Other languages that support overloading have the same hope and even less support.
Operator overloading is mere syntatic sugar that is irrelevant to the real problems the HPC mob encounters daily.

Quote
X86 will remain relevant for years more, just as COBOL has remained relevant.  But X86 is largely useless to the cell phone crowd and other broad swathes of our profession.

I first used an ARM computer 30 years ago, so that's another thing where the change largely falls into the smaller/faster/cheaper category. I liked the ARM1's objectives and solution then, and continue to like the ARM family.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline void_error

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #85 on: July 24, 2015, 01:34:06 pm »
I just landed a job in the EE field and I'm a college dropout (not that college could teach me anything useful... not where I live).

At the interview I was given a task to interface a 1-wire temperature sensor to a PC via the serial port using a micro of my choice. Job done. First time I've done that. On a solderless breadboard with what I could get my hands on locally and what I had at home. This project was something they were working on and didn't find anyone to do it.

The EE who interviewed me was quite impressed (also he was one of the old school guys not so much into microcontrollers and stuff).
He also told me that the best guys in the company don't have a degree either.

I was told about the last people employed in this position too. One of them spent three months lighting up LEDs in all possible ways without getting any useful work done.

Looks like teaching myself how to use (read playing with) PICs paid off.

Since I don't have a degree I'll be employed as a technician instead of an engineer but I don't mind that as the pay is good. Signing the papers next monday :scared:
Trust me, I'm NOT an engineer.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #86 on: July 24, 2015, 05:52:39 pm »
Void you are living the dream and the reality of being non-degreed.  The people you are working for recognize and value your skills.  Good.  You will get to work on something that you enjoy.  Good.  Someone in your company didn't really value your skills and gave you a technician position instead of an engineering position.  Not good.  You will be paid well.  Good.  Your future promotions and pay raises may be limited by your position as a technician.  Not good.

I know more than one individual who was the go to person in their company in a technical area, who got superlative performance reviews quarterly and annually, and who literally created products that resulted in sales for their company, but were ineligible for promotion or significant pay increase due to the lack of a degree.  Time will tell if your company is like that.
 

Offline void_error

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #87 on: July 24, 2015, 09:14:34 pm »
Someone in your company didn't really value your skills and gave you a technician position instead of an engineering position.
That's not the company it's the actually the laws around here. I suspect it's because there are so many people getting an EE degree around here and they don't even know the basics. Most of them end up software developers. At least 80% of graduates electronics knowledge is below that of a hobbyist. I quit college because I realized 70% of what they teach you is pointless, the courses are a mess and meant to get you to fail an exam so you pay for re-examination. A retired army doctor I met about a year ago, who's currently teaching, called the higher education in my country an industry. The thing is it's quite profitable. I might continue my EE studies at a later time in case I'm about to hit my salary limit as a technician.

Speaking of college, the brother of a friend dropped out of college as well, his hobby was programming and his impression of college education here was that it narrows your way of thinking and prevents you to excel in what you do, steering you in a certain direction, if you understand what I mean (I tried to translate that as accurately as possible). He now has a job that he likes and pays well.
Trust me, I'm NOT an engineer.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #88 on: July 24, 2015, 11:39:12 pm »
I suspect it's because there are so many people getting an EE degree around here and they don't even know the basics.
Firstly, that is an age-old complaint; some things never change.

Secondly, there are basic and there are basics. Nobody knows everything. I want your strengths to cover my weaknesses, and vice versa.

(Of course those that don't recognise their limitations are displaying their limitations for all to see)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #89 on: July 25, 2015, 05:43:08 pm »
I suspect it's because there are so many people getting an EE degree around here and they don't even know the basics. Most of them end up software developers. At least 80% of graduates electronics knowledge is below that of a hobbyist...
Can be true, there are many positions for sales engineers and HVAC managers too.

But quit the one-dimensional contrast, it's too limited.
Try to look at it in minimum 2 dimensions, there are minimum 4 guys.

                       |    Unskilled   |   Skilled   |
---------------|--------------|-----------|
EE degree        |       1           |      2         |
---------------|--------------|-----------|
no EE degree   |       3           |      4         |
---------------|--------------|-----------|


You are competing against guy number 2. Maybe he will work on things you don't know they exist, and in 15 years you will only expierience the effects of it.
Don't underestimate the guy.


If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #90 on: July 26, 2015, 08:39:46 am »
Degree,no Degree,
Well if I owned a company I'd want a person that was passionate about it,got on with it,got the job done, not someone who walks around on air thinking he/she was something special. I know people who have degrees,in the practical field useless,and I know non degree people, who seem to have a chip on their shoulder,both bad as each other.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #91 on: July 26, 2015, 08:46:32 am »
Degree,no Degree,
Well if I owned a company I'd want a person that was passionate about it,got on with it,got the job done, not someone who walks around on air thinking he/she was something special. I know people who have degrees,in the practical field useless,and I know non degree people, who seem to have a chip on their shoulder,both bad as each other.

Just so.

Doctors and nurses complement each other. A hospital withut doctors would be as dysfunctional as a hospital without nurses; both are necessary, neither are sufficient.

The number of lives that have been saved because nurses spotted and avoided mistakes by junior doctors is countless. I'd also rather have a nurse insert a needle into my arm, and many other day-to-day practical necessities. But I really really wouldn't be happy with a nurse diagnosing all problems, nor specifying medicines nor courses of treatment.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline george graves

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #92 on: July 26, 2015, 11:22:06 am »
Degree,no Degree,
Well if I owned a company I'd want a person that was passionate about it

I'm always amazed when I talk someone, and they hate what they do.  That's a red flag.  Do not hire that person.  Hire the guy that eats, sleeps, dreams the profession.

The number of lives that have been saved because nurses spotted and avoided mistakes by junior doctors is countless. I'd also rather have a nurse insert a needle into my arm, and many other day-to-day practical necessities.

Medical is a bit different - but as someone that spent a month in a coma, I can tell you that nurse are key.  You could have a ward full of highly trained doctors, but none of them will spot as something as simple as a bed sore.

I know Dave has a different outlook on grad vs non-grad. 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #93 on: July 26, 2015, 03:28:06 pm »
The number of lives that have been saved because nurses spotted and avoided mistakes by junior doctors is countless. I'd also rather have a nurse insert a needle into my arm, and many other day-to-day practical necessities.
Medical is a bit different - but as someone that spent a month in a coma, I can tell you that nurse are key.  You could have a ward full of highly trained doctors, but none of them will spot as something as simple as a bed sore.

Everything is different; analogies are dangerous! Nonetheless there are sufficient parallels to cut through the facile "X is mandatory" vs "X is useless" points of contention.

Doctors and nurses have complementary skills and weaknesses, and that's just as it should be. Ditto engineers and technicians.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #94 on: July 28, 2015, 11:13:05 am »
Doctors and nurses complement each other. A hospital withut .

Both have a degree, you don't enter that field without. Don't underestimate the degree the nurse has.
Completely other discussion.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #95 on: July 28, 2015, 01:51:01 pm »
Doctors and nurses complement each other. A hospital withut .
Both have a degree, you don't enter that field without. Don't underestimate the degree the nurse has.

What on earth leads you to believe that I am underestimating nurses' skills and contributions?

However, having relations that are doctors and relations that are nurses, you are wrong about nurses requiring a degree. Some of my relations are "high powerered" and highly respected nurses, and they don't have a degree.

Quote
Completely other discussion.

All discussions are different, nonetheless there is sufficient value in the analogy for it to show just how facile some of the comments in this conversation actually are.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2015, 03:54:05 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #96 on: July 28, 2015, 03:25:16 pm »
Doctors and nurses complement each other. A hospital withut .
Both have a degree, you don't enter that field without. Don't underestimate the degree the nurse has.

What on earth leads you to believe that I am underestimating nurses' skills and contributions?

However, having relations that are doctors and relations that are nurses, you are wrong about nurses requiring a degree. Some of my relations are "high powerered£ and highly respected nurses, and they don't have a degree.

Quote
Completely other discussion.

All discussions are different, nonetheless there is sufficient value in the analogy for it to show just how facile some of the comments in this conversation actually are.

In Australia,there are two levels of nurses---one level have Degrees,the other level don't.
And a "Doctor" is normally just a Bachelor of Medicine---they are not Doctors in the University sense!
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #97 on: July 28, 2015, 04:33:23 pm »
The problem is you get a RN, registered Nurse, weho has been to a nursing training institution, normally attached to a University medical colledge and a hospital, for the practical and theory training and knowledge. RN is somebody who is probably as competent as a general doctor, and you often get specialised nurses as well, paediatric or oncology as an example. They are quite competent as a doctor, and can generally do the same prescription as a doctor, at least here, though they often do refer to a doctor or specialist for some cases.

Other nurse is what is called a Nurse Aide, who has a lower level of training, more aimed at the practical side of nursing, like patient care and handling.  they are whay you most often meet in general, being the majority of a hospital nursing staff.

While a RN and a Nurse Aide may dress nearly identically in white scrubs, they are very different, the RN being recognised as the equal of a doctor in most instances, and the NA being somnewhat less in the system.

Easy to tell the RN in a group, they will be the ones in charge, with even most doctors giving a very close ear to what they say.

RN's also make the worst patients, they will drive the NA's crazy doing training on them even while in a bed, and will both praise good work ( rare, you really have to have done it perfectly and to the time defined)  and explain where you are deficient.

My neighbour is a RN, and believe me you listen to her, even the Egyptian geese stop when she tells them to keep quiet, along with the local Vervet monkeys.
 

Offline Smokey

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #98 on: July 28, 2015, 07:55:30 pm »
...
My neighbour is a RN, and believe me you listen to her, even the Egyptian geese stop when she tells them to keep quiet, along with the local Vervet monkeys.
Not to derail the conversion too much but....
I love that you have to deal with wild monkeys.  And I think my neighbors dog is annoying.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #99 on: July 29, 2015, 01:24:57 pm »
What on earth leads you to believe that I am underestimating nurses' skills and contributions?

I did not
... Don't underestimate the degree the nurse has.

However, having relations that are doctors and relations that are nurses, you are wrong about nurses requiring a degree. Some of my relations are "high powerered" and highly respected nurses, and they don't have a degree.
Good for you, in your country. Never been in that place.

All discussions are different, nonetheless there is sufficient value in the analogy for it to show ...
No there is not. there even isn't an analogy.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2015, 01:35:38 pm by Galenbo »
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 


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