Author Topic: Degree necessary for EE field?  (Read 54043 times)

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Offline zerorisersTopic starter

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Degree necessary for EE field?
« on: March 26, 2015, 03:52:51 pm »
So due to how the conversation went on https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/how-old-is-too-old-to-join-the-ee-field/15/ I think it would be interesting to have either an EEVBlab or an amphour conversation on the topic of EE degrees, how they may be useful, and where you would not need one in the EE field. I think it would get pretty interesting to hear more about it.
 

Offline dr.diesel

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 03:57:29 pm »
If you search back, there has been extensive discussions on this topic.

Offline free_electron

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 07:13:23 pm »
here we go again  :palm:
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Offline AG6QR

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 09:04:18 pm »
Many employers will require a degree in order to get into the door for an interview.  Others will be more interested in what practical capabilities you have demonstrated, and may overlook the lack of a degree from a candidate who has demonstrated ability.  Generally speaking, larger, more bureaucratic companies are more likely to require a formal degree.  There are some industry segments where degree requirements are more universal than others.

There aren't many situations where a degree will count against you.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2015, 02:25:51 am »
if you have 2 applicants.... both are equally good at practical side but only one has a degree, which one you prefer?
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2015, 02:42:41 am »
Quote
if you have 2 applicants.... both are equally good at practical side but only one has a degree, which one you prefer?
All else being equal, the one with 10s (or 100s) of $K of education debt would have more motivation to work for me.
But then that isn't fundamentally different from slavery, is it?

OTOH, s/he might also be more susceptible to jump ship and go work for somebody who offered a few $$ more,
and the one without a degree might have more loyalty for taking chance on them.
 

Offline Mechatrommer

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #6 on: March 27, 2015, 05:07:47 am »
degree or not degree, people will always look for places with more $$. loyalty is not related to "technical education" level, its pesonality or own behaviour or related to "moral/religious education". and $$ is not the only deciding factor whether to leave or stay, there are many other reasons. imho.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 05:14:22 am by Mechatrommer »
Nature: Evolution and the Illusion of Randomness (Stephen L. Talbott): Its now indisputable that... organisms “expertise” contextualizes its genome, and its nonsense to say that these powers are under the control of the genome being contextualized - Barbara McClintock
 

Offline hans

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 10:00:30 pm »
Work isn't only about money in that sense. If there are no money issues, you will more likely focus on other aspects of the job.

Things like work culture (including the amount political dogfights going on), secondary conditions and the actual type of work (bored of that industry? dead end in seek of better positions?) etc.

These aspects would personally interest me a lot more than a 200$/month increase in salary at another company, which ~50% is going straight to the government and/or (e.g. in the Netherlands) you may also outgrow a tax-cut and effectively end up worse. Then again, in Netherlands we 'enjoy' the benefits of free college scholarship for first Bachelor/Master's degree and welfare state laws regarding employee protection laws.

Because of these welfare state laws I do not see a lot of people in the Netherlands doing "engineering work" without a Bachelor degree. My guess is because employers have to be careful who they take up for a job and seek someone with at least some 'proven' (on paper) records. Those laws go active after the probationary period (1 month typically) preventing the employer to fire someone easily unless the contract ends or something drastic happened (like theft, violence, etc).
1 month is not a very long period to fully evaluate one's performance. E.g. a project start to end may take 3 months to half a year to complete, but probably even longer if the job application was specifically for a big new upcoming project which isn't going to be finished in "years".

These laws also prescribe that after 2-3 years you need to get a indefinite term contract - often joked about as "you are now part of the furniture around here". Nevertheless there are still plenty of "job hoppers" to be seen. It depends on the person, and what they value from their job. There are still plenty of people sticking to the same employer for 25+ years.

Two ways to work around it I think; either prove you have experience besides a degree, or become self-employed.
Then again, YMMV in the States, because you have things sorted out a lot differently.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 10:04:42 pm by hans »
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2015, 06:48:12 pm »
here we go again  :palm:

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Online Smokey

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2015, 04:41:18 am »
How about you just try to get real EE design jobs without a degree and let us know how it goes...
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2015, 04:58:16 pm »
How about you just try to get real EE design jobs without a degree and let us know how it goes...
Very well thank you.
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Online Smokey

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2015, 05:35:13 pm »
True.... But I think we can all agree that you are an outlier, Free_Electron.  I also remember you putting in your time as a tech and working your way up. 
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2015, 07:42:23 pm »
There are useful parallels with the medical profession. Every doctor relies on nurses when newly-graduated, and knows that often nurses are more competent at some tasks, e.g. inserting a needle. Nurses can often use their experience to catch mistakes before they become a problem.

Nonetheless, for certain tasks you really would prefer a doctor to a nurse!

The same is true for engineers and technicians. Both are valuable. Both have limitations. Both have advantages.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline free_electron

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2015, 07:56:44 pm »
True.... But I think we can all agree that you are an outlier, Free_Electron.  I also remember you putting in your time as a tech and working your way up.
nah, lots of people like me. You have to create your own chances. simply idling until one lands in your lap gets you nowhere. degree or not.

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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2015, 09:39:45 am »
True.... But I think we can all agree that you are an outlier, Free_Electron.  I also remember you putting in your time as a tech and working your way up.
nah, lots of people like me. You have to create your own chances. simply idling until one lands in your lap gets you nowhere. degree or not.

Indeed, the degree/nodegree is a useless discussion.
Instead, degree/selftoughtskills should be used.

I don't think there's a subfield that educated electronic masters know, and Free_electron doesn't.
Both routes are possible, and it's good so, but there's no easy way.


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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2015, 09:43:44 am »
Nonetheless, for certain tasks you really would prefer a doctor to a nurse!

But sometimes I like to hear from an expierienced nurse wich doctor is motivated, and wich one is an alcoholic.

And sometimes the things a nurse (with 10 years expierience in the bushes of afrika) does or says make more sense that what a hanger-on doctor does.
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2015, 10:00:24 am »
Nonetheless, for certain tasks you really would prefer a doctor to a nurse!

But sometimes I like to hear from an expierienced nurse wich doctor is motivated, and wich one is an alcoholic.

And sometimes the things a nurse (with 10 years expierience in the bushes of afrika) does or says make more sense that what a hanger-on doctor does.

I suggest you read all of my post - and don't prune it so heavily that its points are inverted. Strawman arguments are never impressive; crude strawman arguments doubly so.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2015, 01:57:13 pm »
I suggest you read all of my post - and don't prune it so heavily that its points are inverted.
What is the data and the logic you used to think that I did not read your post completely?
Can I assume you do not personally know a nurse that lived 10 years in Afrika in a region where she was the only literate person?

...don't prune it...
Strawman arguments are never impressive; crude strawman arguments doubly so.
I do not know what that means in your culture. I do not understand that, it's an expression that is not used here.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 02:02:31 pm by Galenbo »
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Offline zapta

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2015, 02:25:17 pm »
>> Degree necessary for EE field?

Not necessary but very helpful.

OP, if your dilemma is wether to get a STEM academic degrees, I say go for it.  You will have deeper knowledge, will be able to get more interesting jobs and will be payed more.

 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2015, 02:40:34 pm »
I suggest you read all of my post - and don't prune it so heavily that its points are inverted.
What is the data and the logic you used to think that I did not read your post completely?

Simple: because your point merely emphasises what I wrote - and you cut my first and third paragraphs which makes that clear.

For the avoidance of doubt, here it is again, with added emphasis since English isn't your first language: "Every doctor relies on nurses when newly-graduated, and knows that often nurses are more competent at some tasks, e.g. inserting a needle. Nurses can often use their experience to catch mistakes before they become a problem." and "The same is true for engineers and technicians. Both are valuable. Both have limitations. Both have advantages"

Quote
...don't prune it...
Strawman arguments are never impressive; crude strawman arguments doubly so.
I do not know what that means in your culture. I do not understand that, it's an expression that is not used here.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=strawman+argument and the first result is perfectly adequate.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline zapta

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2015, 04:08:10 pm »
And sometimes the things a nurse (with 10 years expierience in the bushes of afrika) does or says make more sense that what a hanger-on doctor does.

We are dealing with probability and distributions, not cherry picked data points. 

Look at the graphs below, the red and green graphs do overlap but are very different.  If you select a pair of random points from the red and green populations respectively, the probability of the red point having higher value is significantly higher than the opposite.


 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2015, 05:45:46 pm »
Work isn't only about money in that sense. If there are no money issues, you will more likely focus on other aspects of the job.

Things like work culture (including the amount political dogfights going on), secondary conditions and the actual type of work (bored of that industry? dead end in seek of better positions?) etc.

These aspects would personally interest me a lot more than a 200$/month increase in salary at another company, which ~50% is going straight to the government and/or (e.g. in the Netherlands) you may also outgrow a tax-cut and effectively end up worse. Then again, in Netherlands we 'enjoy' the benefits of free college scholarship for first Bachelor/Master's degree and welfare state laws regarding employee protection laws.

Because of these welfare state laws I do not see a lot of people in the Netherlands doing "engineering work" without a Bachelor degree. My guess is because employers have to be careful who they take up for a job and seek someone with at least some 'proven' (on paper) records. Those laws go active after the probationary period (1 month typically) preventing the employer to fire someone easily unless the contract ends or something drastic happened (like theft, violence, etc).
1 month is not a very long period to fully evaluate one's performance. E.g. a project start to end may take 3 months to half a year to complete, but probably even longer if the job application was specifically for a big new upcoming project which isn't going to be finished in "years".

These laws also prescribe that after 2-3 years you need to get a indefinite term contract - often joked about as "you are now part of the furniture around here". Nevertheless there are still plenty of "job hoppers" to be seen. It depends on the person, and what they value from their job. There are still plenty of people sticking to the same employer for 25+ years.

Two ways to work around it I think; either prove you have experience besides a degree, or become self-employed.
Then again, YMMV in the States, because you have things sorted out a lot differently.

Is a degree necessary?  In the US, absolutely not.  Free_electron being a poster child example.  But it is rapidly becoming more so.  In the company I retired from, many of the top performers had no degree, had a degree, but a low GPA, or came from a university with a lessor reputation.  Those who actually created new products or solved the most intractable problems had these backgrounds far more frequently than the general (very large) engineering population.  Strangely, for the decade or so before I was gone it was impossible to hire folks from any of those categories.  Why?  The need to demonstrate equal opportunity employment made it increasingly important to have objective metrics for all hiring/retention/salary decisions.  Statements like "solved millions of dollars worth of production issues" were deemed too susceptible to bias and interpretation.  So degrees and grade point averages became very important.  In a natural desire to increase the quality of the workforce this led to minimum thresholds for GPA, and recruitment only from "top schools" (a list selected to include the obvious candidates and others with good EEO credentials).

Companies like the one free_electron works for are not under as much pressure in this area as those who service government contracts and public utilities, but the trend is there and seems likely to spread.  So the options for non degree employment will tend to be self employment and employment in small, bold private companies that value talent sufficiently to evaluate it and not merely apply an algorithm.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 05:54:12 pm »
Nonetheless, for certain tasks you really would prefer a doctor to a nurse!

But sometimes I like to hear from an expierienced nurse wich doctor is motivated, and wich one is an alcoholic.

And sometimes the things a nurse (with 10 years expierience in the bushes of afrika) does or says make more sense that what a hanger-on doctor does.

That is my neighbour Brenda, though she does have rather more than 10 years experience. Still runs a free clinic even though she is rather well past the retirement age of 65. Been there, seen it all, worked 20 years as an ER nurse, then 20 more as head matron in a large hospital.
 

Offline Galenbo

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 10:42:25 pm »
Simple: because your point merely emphasises what I wrote - and you cut my first and third paragraphs which makes that clear.
tgzz, maybe read again the first sentence I wrote, after the first time I quoted you.
Strange that you are the guy that's complaining about selective quoting and the strawman thing.

Maybe what I posted afther that was an exception, but on the other side of the spectrum there are the overgeneralisations, something I find in your quote about the differences.

We are dealing with probability and distributions, not cherry picked data points.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Normal_Distribution_PDF.svg
Look here, some guy with a picture about basic statistics, I feel like in school again.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2015, 10:43:57 pm by Galenbo »
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Degree necessary for EE field?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2015, 06:37:56 pm »
And sometimes the things a nurse (with 10 years expierience in the bushes of afrika) does or says make more sense that what a hanger-on doctor does.

We are dealing with probability and distributions, not cherry picked data points. 

Look at the graphs below, the red and green graphs do overlap but are very different.  If you select a pair of random points from the red and green populations respectively, the probability of the red point having higher value is significantly higher than the opposite.




You are making the HR argument.  It presumes statistics which aren't available to me or most others, and which seem inconsistent with my informal sampling.  If I was stocking my company for world beating success I would far prefer the Bill Gates, Steve Wozniaks and free_electron types than just a random selection from a population that "may" have a higher mean.  It might also have a much narrower standard deviation, or a truncated distribution which is missing the top end.  One of the things I have observed is that the very best in electronic engineering/software engineering are just too impatient to get a university degree.  They dive into a subject and learn it in a few days or weeks, and can't be bothered to wait around for the end of a semester or quarter to start something else. 
 


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