EEVblab #2 - Are Electronics Hobbyists Useless?

[(In)Sanity]

Coding is the easy part. Finding the perfect elegant solution is the ultimate goal.

Finding the solution is the second part. Unconvering the real underlying problem/requirements is the first part; get that wrong and you'll end up with a perfect, unused product!

My first action when developing something for a client is to say "don't tell me your solution, tell me your problem". I can then often find alternative simpler cheaper faster ways for them to accomplish their goals. And even if I can't, it still helps customer satisfaction.

Yes,  this is the best approach.  My boss often wants to pretend he's a programmer and give me technical solutions.   I just want the plain English explanation of what your trying to accomplish.   If I understand the problem I can come up with a solution.   He also believes outsourced coders should never be told what it is they are trying to accomplish,  just told to do x, y and z with no insight as to the end goal.  That one I really disagree with.

Jeff

[Rutger]

What a fantastic opportunity for a young student to gain some real life experience and work side by side with Dave.
If I was a young lad (and happen to be living in Sidney) I would be jumping all over this opportunity.

I would not be afraid of the requirements even if I didn't meet all 100% off them and don't think they are too strict.

I think the person you should hire is the one that brings the show and tell projects he/she has been working on, it doesn't even have the 100% related.
The person that shows enthusiasm, curiosity and and eagerness to learn new things would be my pick.

[Leadfootin]

Dave,

You are exactly on the money. If I didn't live diametrically opposite you on the globe a resume would probably be hand delivered. My start as a hobbyist was designing my own receiver circuits when 3Mhz was a fast transistor! Still very active, will be applying and debugging my design for a Weller DEC 1001 temp control circuit as the boards are NLA. Won't be quite as accurate but still very close, 600F-850F. Not hard after drawing out their overly engineered solution. Will post under repairs when happy with my design.

Peter

[edy]

Set the bar high Dave.... Set the bar HIGH. 

I agree with you Dave. Anyone worthy of being part of the EEVBlog under your mentorship will be someone who is self-taught or with a few years of schooling but always learning and ahead of the curve due to passion for the subject!

The barrier to entry is ridiculously low, anyone with enough interest and determination can learn the basics you mentioned. Just look at all the examples out there on how young players have been able to do amazing things on limited budgets, surprising all the experts!

In the world of computers, just think of all those young programmers who designed and built computers in their garages, made amazing software, squeezing ridiculous performance out of tiny codebases (e.g. "Demoscene") and pioneered many of the advances that we attribute to professional corporations today.

In the world of electronics, there are many young players who "GOT THE RIGHT STUFF".

The *ONLY* limitation here is physical distance.

If you have trouble finding someone local who meets your criteria, why not "out-source" to someone who lives further away? Video conferencing, recording and uploading and sharing video, source code, PCB layouts, designing, trouble-shooting, shipping components, etc...  all of it could be done over a distance. How feasible would it be to hire someone in a different country?

[PChi]

I think that Dave is being reasonable but there will be many 'professional' engineers who do it for a living who would be hard pressed to cover all the areas.
There will be someone out there with the ability but are they close to the EEVblog headquarters and can they afford to do it? Time will tell.

[pickle9000]

I think that Dave is being reasonable but there will be many 'professional' engineers who do it for a living who would be hard pressed to cover all the areas.
There will be someone out there with the ability but are they close to the EEVblog headquarters and can they afford to do it? Time will tell.

So as an engineer that could be (is) true, as a hobbyist not really. If you have the hunger for the subject you want to try Kicad or whatever program, play with an Arduino, make a power supply or wireless remote. That's just the way it is, it's not a matter of this is too difficult and quit. You go at it and do it, not being smart enough to know it's not possible is what it's all about. It's not about failure it's about learning.
 

[(In)Sanity]

This is actually kind of an interesting topic.  Here is my list of candidate profiles.

1)   The newb that doesn't have any training or experience. 
2)   The noob that's just going to lie their way past everything and leave you high and dry.
2)   The young person that started soldering at birth and is now the uber geek.
3)   The young person that graduated,  went to school and knows nothing
4)   The ex construction worker that had a mid life crisis and went to school and still knows nothing.
5)   The cable repair guy that thinks he knows everything..but knows nothing.
6)   The 12 year old girl selling cookies in front of the shopping mall that understands quantum mechanics.
7)   The software guy that wonders why everything can't just be typed out or programmed to complete all the work.  Better yet just use spice.
   The retired ex JPL employee working at the fast food joint looking for a sideline.
9)   The gray beard that still thinks analog oscilloscopes are the only way to go.
10)  Dave's evil twin brother who often uploads video's without his knowledge.
11)  A fellow video blogger that will sabotage all the video's and make their own showing how it should be done right.
12)  Dave's son 9 years from now who will point out constantly how lame his father is.   Typical teenager.
13)  Some guy named beaker who will blow stuff up constantly.
14)  A teenage goth who will always get everything right and insist on saying...Whatever when complemented.

I could go on and on.

Jeff

[tec5c]

I think we're all missing the obvious answer here... Sagan! It's about time he started learning how to layout a board, is it not?

Jokes aside.

Dave, a few years ago I approached you about some casual work of the very nature that you're now seeking. At the time, it was deemed unreasonable and so I moved on.
I have a Cert. III in electronics and an Advanced Diploma in electronic and communications engineering. I have a home lab that I have put several thousands of dollars into, as well as a few pieces of gear that I have designed and made myself.

Due to my ever growing interest in electronics, I thought it was time for the degree. Fast forward to now and I have just recently (less than 2 weeks ago) finished my second year at Uni doing EE.
I live close by to Dave and have met him previously, and I now work casually (before Uni, was full-time) at a previous employer of his.

If I were not at a highly supportive & respectable company I would be applying for this position as I can imagine learning a good deal from the experience.

I don't think the demands are too unreasonable. However, I will reinforce what has already been said in regards to EE students who simply don't give a damn.
I will also second the idea of a semi-retired engineer (engineering assistant) who is looking for some casual work.

I believe there is a person out there who is fit for the role you're offering and I wish you all the best in your search.


Jason

[casper.bang]

I think you are a bit unfair when you compare your skill-set back in the 70's and 80's to what you expect now. Many things have gotten easier for sure, but also way more complex - not unlike software engineering, where the abstraction levels have also shifted and where specialization is favored over generalization.

For instance, I consider myself an EE hobbyist, but I decided CAD board layout is NOT a skill I need. That's because I can (out)source this specific production aspect dirt cheap and spend my energy on engineering/experimenting. So while I am sure there are hobbyists who can do everything you ask, I'd argue they could get a better paying job elsewhere - which means it really comes down to what your brand can attract.

[EEVblog]

The *ONLY* limitation here is physical distance.

Yep, and I have gotten quite a few overseas applicants. I will of course have a preference for a local resident.

[EEVblog]

For instance, I consider myself an EE hobbyist, but I decided CAD board layout is NOT a skill I need. That's because I can (out)source this specific production aspect dirt cheap and spend my energy on engineering/experimenting. So while I am sure there are hobbyists who can do everything you ask, I'd argue they could get a better paying job elsewhere - which means it really comes down to what your brand can attract.

Then they are welcome to take a job somewhere else.
Just like any job, it will be suited to some and not others.
My job isn't some magical employment utopia.

[envisionelec]

Ok. I am currently unemployed, live in the US and enjoy designing, debugging and PCB layout. Almost all of my clients I have never met in person. I am an excellent writer and have no trouble deciphering and communicating requirements.

I have designed products for about 10 years with contract assembly projects for about 6 years. I'm 38. Young enough to be somewhat creative and old enough to know better. I can wake up at 3AM for a conference call. AMA.

[Wim_L]

I thought it all was quite reasonable.

My opinion was that Dave's videos were a godsend to hobbyists and engineering students, filling in many voids that a university education has.
He's after a go-getter, so the breed of lazy bare-minimum students I saw during my studies need not apply....

*added*
It was actually a little heart breaking to discover nobody had any passion at all in this field when commencing university level studies

Oh, I noticed the same thing in chemistry. Few of the students had their own little chemistry lab at home. These days, they do have more of an excuse than the electronics students, the police might be too likely to raid home chemistry labs 

However, someone not having all of those skills shouldn't necessarily disqualify them. PCB design, for example, is essential for mass production. But one could be a very capable RF hobbyist without ever making a PCB, dead bug construction will usually do the job just fine for one-off projects.

And don't forget, the difference between amateur and professional is if you're getting paid for it or not, it needn't say much about the level of skill involved.

[Simon]

I'm a hobbyist by definition as i have no formal qualifications yet I've designed safety critical gear to a better standard than a so called post graduate (his version was quite literally lethal and was still lethal on revision 2 despite me pointing out the problems on rev 1). And having modified another post graduates code which supposedly broke it, while he was running around trying to work out how I "broke" it I solved the problems he was supposed to be solving instead of working out what I did wrong.

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

[fireant01]

Are electronics hobbyists useless? My short reply is absolutely NOT!  I am 68 years old and continue to enjoy electronics as a hobby in all forms and I started as a hobbyist in possibly 1958 when I built my first vacuum tube stereo receiver from a kit...I was hooked on electrons from there onward. As a kid I hated high school except for shop and an electronics class available to me, and I later chose to go to a two year technical school graduating as an electronics technician in 1967. Electronics turned me in a productive direction from that point. My path has been a long and enjoyable one in the work force as a  US NAVY electronics technician, TV service tech, and I finally retired from Texas Instruments Linear Circuits Division in 2005. Unfortunately my health prevented me from working long hours there further. I miss working in electronics but I discovered Dave's stuff on YouTube two days ago, and I love the updated information I get from him. Watching Dave's material has reawakened the electronic adventurism I once had. Being retired now allows me the time to tinker and experiment again. I cannot imagine what I would have done in my early life if I had the internet and blogs like this to learn from. My only regret is that I did not go onward to get my Electronics Engineering degree, but raising two children and providing an income somehow got in the way. I encourage anyone who considers that being a hobbyist is a waste of time to completely reconsider that thought. The demand for such skills has never been higher!  Even if you don't make a career of it as I did.  Thanks Dave, for all the enjoyable and educational YouTube material!

[dentaku]

Jut being a student doesn't make a person qualified but a true hobbyist who's learned stuff by themselves because they're interested in it is the right kind of person for the job.

Not everyone is a genius at creatively hacking stuff together and reverse engineering like Mike Harrison but if you end up finding the next Mike, as Aussies might say "good on ya".

[open loop]

I don't think that Dave is asking for too much...

I think one key point is that Dave needs someone he can work with, like any job it's not all going to be like the hobby. Putting items in the mail, sorting out boring stuff to help the business is also important.

Dave needs some who is as passionate about electronics as he is, that will help with doing the "boring jobs" after all it's a small business he has. Having some one who is not self sufficient is going to bug the hell out of Dave.

As for skills , I think the ability of finding stuff out and learning by yourself is going to be a key skill. This is one reason why the hobbyist electronics personas so desirable.

Hope Dave can find someone he can work with...

[Wilksey]

I have to say that the worst thing I find about writing software is feature creep rather than anything else, as people add bits in all of your diagrams as well as code will have to change.  Even if I did an original UML diagram I wouldn't have the chance to maintain it.

I can't say I have ever felt a class diagram useful to be honest, and trust me, when you have a 35 phase 3 radio device with 4 channels per device and throw in a few pedestrians traffic light controller and it's associated logic to deal with, that is no small task!  No UML was used or abused in the making of, and it works just as well as it would had I spend another 6 months drawing the diagrams for it.

[691175002]

I recently graduated, and anyone with a relevant degree should easily meet your requirements.

The only marginally problematic requirement is PCB layout, because it actually costs money and time to have boards made. Many students would rather grab perfboard.

[ptricks]

Hobbyists is too generic a term as it doesn't really describe what the person knows but instead describes that they have an interest in the subject. I might have an aquarium as a hobby but that doesn't mean I research everything about marine life.  You could say advanced hobbyists , but what does that mean ? It is all too relative.

I think Dave was clear in what he wants but I doubt anything was written in stone.  If anyone hasn't applied because the description seemed too difficult , I would re-consider and send an email, tell Dave what you are about and take it from there. Be honest about topics that you don't quite understand and where your understanding level is currently and let him tell you if that will be a problem or not. This approach works not only for this topic but getting a job in general.

[tautech]

The only marginally problematic requirement is PCB layout, because it actually costs money and time to have boards made. Many students would rather grab perfboard.

Not the case in NZ where students have access to Altium labs & PCB etching plants.
Reasonable skills in this area are expected and rightly so for a degree.

[m12lrpv]

I fit your job description as a hobbyist but I already have a day job 
Realistically my day job has been what's allowed me to develop the electronics skills that I have.

Your expectations for a hobbyist are not unrealistic if you were just looking for a hobbyist however you may be putting the cart before the horse when it comes to finding someone to actually work in your lab.

[tggzzz]

Some qualified people should not be in the business,

Very true - but more unqualified people should not be in the business!

the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition.

No, because that depends on the skills. Some skills absolutely require a deep theoretical understanding of the topic.

Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

Cherish the former. Don't let the latter in the door. And that's true whether they have advanced qualifications or none at all.

Guys, define the key characteristics required in that position and recruit a suitable person. Different positions have different requirements and suggesting that one type of person is suitable for all positions is, frankly, imbecilic.

At the very least, read Belbin on the composition of teams. Don't take the details too literally, but his fundamental tenets are valid, usable and valuable.

[IanB]

Many students would rather grab perfboard.

Which for a one-off prototype, is sound engineering judgement. One should spend more time on the bits that matter, and less time (and money) on the bits that don't. If layout considerations don't require a custom PCB there is little reason to spend time making one.

[IanB]

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

I think perhaps you haven't really come across many capable and well qualified people. They are out there, and your eyes would be opened if you worked with one.