EEVblab #2 - Are Electronics Hobbyists Useless?

[tombi]

Maybe a student is what you want anyway - that is someone who has a basic grounding and wants to develop all the skills in your requirements list but isn't there yet.

There is this series of articles on Hack-A-Day called ScopeNoob where this guy talks through learning to use a scope. Having a noob teach other noobs as they learn might be interesting (especially if he has someone with experience backing him up and stopping him from making obvious errors).

Or alternatively you could hire a non-skilled body to do the scut work (packing/shipping organising, procurement, editing uploading) and mentor local electronics projects in return for the right to video blog their progress.

[casper.bang]

I guess I am just confused by the somewhat provocative and sensational subject line Dave used. My understanding of the term "hobbyist" matched what wikipedia defines: "Generally speaking, a person who engages in an activity solely for fun is called a 'hobbyist', whereas a 'professional' generally engages in an activity for reward and an 'amateur' (from French for "lover of") does so out of personal interest in an activity. While an amateur may be as skilled as a professional, a professional receives compensation while an amateur generally does not." So by definition, a hobbyist can not be useless since he is doing stuff for his own pleasure.

[pickle9000]

I guess I am just confused by the somewhat provocative and sensational subject line Dave used. My understanding of the term "hobbyist" matched what wikipedia defines: "Generally speaking, a person who engages in an activity solely for fun is called a 'hobbyist', whereas a 'professional' generally engages in an activity for reward and an 'amateur' (from French for "lover of") does so out of personal interest in an activity. While an amateur may be as skilled as a professional, a professional receives compensation while an amateur generally does not." So by definition, a hobbyist can not be useless since he is doing stuff for his own pleasure.

It appears Dave picked the opposite of what he thinks. Seems pretty clear if you have watched the blog for a while titles get you in the door, everything else is up to you.

[Simon]

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

I think perhaps you haven't really come across many capable and well qualified people. They are out there, and your eyes would be opened if you worked with one.

Your right, I had to deal with 2 counterparts at a subcontractor and while they seem to have specific skills in one area all round they were a disaster and I had to keep fixing things and telling them how I made their stuff work so that they could make a better one and their only interest was in the little PCB and not in the whole design despite the idea being that they eventually manufacture the complete product infact despite us requesting production intent prototypes the results are going to be a nightmare to manufacture. They were totally uninterested in listening to my ideas and using concepts I had already worked out that worked best with some tricky hardware, result more problems.

We are now working with another person (not same company) who is very passionate about what he does, I have no idea if he has qualifications but he certainly has experience on the job and it's a pleasure to deal with him because if I make a suggestion or throw him a line he understands what I'm on about rather than looking at me blankly. Unlike the other we can discuss the fine detail of how our hardware works because he grasps with ease the limitations and the little things we can use to our advantage to make things actually work rather than sort of work sort of like we wanted. Nothing is perfect in the real world and those who are wiling to understand how something does and does not work and maximise any little advantage are the ones worth it, those who want to plug something into a uC and see it work are the idiots we don't need.

[tggzzz]

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

I think perhaps you haven't really come across many capable and well qualified people. They are out there, and your eyes would be opened if you worked with one.

Precisely.

Such people can technically point the project in the right direction so that the subsequent detailed elaboration and implementation occurs speedily and without hitches.

They can prevent people going down blind alleys and producting things that sort-of-work when the wind is in the right direction.

When people are flailing around not understanding why something isn't working, they can see the theoretical cause and possible solutions.

They can prevent bodged "solutions".

Theory without practice is mental masturbation.
Practice without theory is merely alchemical magic.

[Wilksey]

I'm quite partial to a bit of the old Vero board, more formal than a breadboard I think! And I don't have to remove it when I want to build something else.  There are the downsides of not being able to reuse components or board of course, but given the choice I would Vero board it every time.

BGA's don't tend to Vero board very well and you do need a custom PCB, as well as many other modern SMD components with tiny pin pitches and a lot of them, so I think PCB design is essential for most hobbyists, just a shame they didn't teach it very well when I was at college.

[blueebi]

I consider myself to be a hobbyist. I started 4 years ago with only vague memories of high school physics and CS, but I read a lot, made many mistakes, and tried really hard. I also work in IT as a jack of all trades, so I have many of the skill being asked for.
Here are some boards I've made: http://imgur.com/a/zE4py - home etched PCB

- dirtyPCBs.com - soldered with radioshack fire starter and canonical tip Both have mistakes.
I would consider this job if I had spare time, but my family and job keep me quite busy. I have a hard enough time finding time for my hobbies.
As a last thought, in a job ad you ask for everything you want, but don’t expect to get it. You’ll probably get someone who is enthusiastic to learn everything on your list.

[(In)Sanity]

I think qualified and quality don't got hand in hand.   I've been in meetings before with other so called programmers from other companies and my team and I have walked away shaking our heads going how did that dick head land that job.   Their are many people sitting in many positions that are not even vaguely qualified and do wonderful jobs,   their are others that have all the schooling and credentials and are completely useless.  Then of course you have those who know and can do.   What I found in life is it's not what you know it's your willingness to admit you don't and ask questions of your peers.  Simply learn and keep learning. 

"Stupid is what stupid does."

Jeff

[Sasja]

I've been teaching myself electronics full time during the past two years using resources such as eevblog and dave's pcb design manual and the Art of Electronics and what not. I mean, I live of my savings now, don't make any money at all, and do electronics because i love it. So why wouldn't someone like me consider helping dave out, getting a chance to pick his brain, get to use his lab and so on? Of course there will be lots of less interesting parts to the job, but that's what you get paid something for right? No I'm sure there will be qualified people up for this. Heck, depending on how my interview goes tomorrow i might send something in. Give me a few more days dave!

As it happens i have my first electronics interview tomorrow for a position as junior instrumentation engineer and reading about the average skillset of EE graduates in this thread has been an awesome boost to my selfconfidence . And yes I'm bringing a box full of projects and pcb's to the table .

[Simon]

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

I think perhaps you haven't really come across many capable and well qualified people. They are out there, and your eyes would be opened if you worked with one.

Precisely.

Such people can technically point the project in the right direction so that the subsequent detailed elaboration and implementation occurs speedily and without hitches.

They can prevent people going down blind alleys and producting things that sort-of-work when the wind is in the right direction.

When people are flailing around not understanding why something isn't working, they can see the theoretical cause and possible solutions.

They can prevent bodged "solutions".

Theory without practice is mental masturbation.
Practice without theory is merely alchemical magic.

Sorry to smash your world to bits but what stops a hobbyist and self taught person learning a good deal of theory ? since when does a text book tell you how to design a complete practical system ? if your mind is closed and can't work, it just won't happen. Hence some of the "text book" implementations I have seen that do not work in the real world.

How many times have I come to this forum to ask advice and gone away much wiser, many don't have this capability of seeking peers advice. Even our experienced and competent new replacement has been on here asking advice, because the most powerful thing of all is to understand that you may not have all of the answers and know when to ask for help or others similar experiences.........

[tggzzz]

Some qualified people should not be in the business, the hobbyist will always come out on top if you go for a comparable skills competition. Some people do stuff for fun and to make it the best. Others will muddle through because they are paid but don't really give a shit.

I think perhaps you haven't really come across many capable and well qualified people. They are out there, and your eyes would be opened if you worked with one.

Precisely.

Such people can technically point the project in the right direction so that the subsequent detailed elaboration and implementation occurs speedily and without hitches.

They can prevent people going down blind alleys and producting things that sort-of-work when the wind is in the right direction.

When people are flailing around not understanding why something isn't working, they can see the theoretical cause and possible solutions.

They can prevent bodged "solutions".

Theory without practice is mental masturbation.
Practice without theory is merely alchemical magic.

Sorry to smash your world to bits but what stops a hobbyist and self taught person learning a good deal of theory ? since when does a text book tell you how to design a complete practical system ? if your mind is closed and can't work, it just won't happen. Hence some of the "text book" implementations I have seen that do not work in the real world.

Did you read the last two sentences I wrote? In case you managed to miss them, here they are again:

• Theory without practice is mental masturbation.
• Practice without theory is merely alchemical magic.

On re-reading your points, it appears that you mistakenly believe that because I say "all crows are black birds" that means I believe "all black birds are crows". An elementary logical error.

Absolutely nothing "stops a hobbyist and self taught person learning a good deal of theory". You will not find anything I have said which indicates that I might have such an mistaken belief. Hence your point is a mere "strawman argument".

FWIW, I have met some such people, and greatly respect them. Just as I respect those that have a good understanding of theory.

Do you respect people with a good understanding of theory? If not then it would be hard to differentiate your views from mere (and ignorable) inverted snobbery.

How many times have I come to this forum to ask advice and gone away much wiser, many don't have this capability of seeking peers advice. Even our experienced and competent new replacement has been on here asking advice, because the most powerful thing of all is to understand that you may not have all of the answers and know when to ask for help or others similar experiences.........

Sure, so have I. Yours is an uninformative "motherhood and apple pie" statement.

[Simon]

Absolutely nothing "stops a hobbyist and self taught person learning a good deal of theory". You will not find anything I have said which indicates that I might have such an mistaken belief. Hence your point is a mere "strawman argument".

FWIW, I have met some such people, and greatly respect them. Just as I respect those that have a good understanding of theory.

Do you respect people with a good understanding of theory? If not then it would be hard to differentiate your views from mere (and ignorable) inverted snobbery

As your last statement that I quote says again you are presuposing that I'm in a world of theory or practice. If Anyone gets on in the field they need both of course, but there are plenty of people who supposedly have the knowledge but can't use it, they are admired for their smarts on paper but their practical design work is disastrous. Likewise for a self taught person to do well they still need to learn the theory, but the practical side of it is assured and they have to work much harder to get anywhere and know their theory as opposed to the guy with the piece of paper that gets by by having the piece of paper, the self taught one has to have a WORKING knowledge of theory.

I have nothing against qualifications and am starting to study them myself as my employer seeing that I am capable and they are using my skills wants to make sure I am covered by the theory i need and can be very useful to them and it's probably a sort of reward as they don't need much electronics but they know it's what I'm bent on and it can be handy to them. I obviously have the aptitude, but I too need to learn lots more than i already know. I have slowly acquired respect from my employer and collegues by demonstrating over a couple of years that I actually know what I'm doing and can put my money where my mouth is. Had i come in with qualifications I would have got automatic respect with no questions, I'd not have had to save the day a couple of time from our incompetent sub contractors and saved them a lot of money and made available the ultimate flexibility of having an in house man on the job that is competent.

the sub contractor with post graduate employees is not looking so good anymore as they have frankly fucked it up time and time again but of course I'm not saying that qualifications mean you are no good

[wholder]

I etched my first PCB while I was in high school by following examples I read about in hobby electronics magazines such as Popular Electronics and learned a great deal from such luminaries as Don Lancaster.  This was back around 1969-70, or so.  I got my first job at Mouser Electronics (back when it was a small import company based in Lakeside California) by identifying electronic components on a board.  The job was for a warehouse picker, but I did so well on the test that I got to meet the founder, Jerry Mouser, who gave me a job designing educational electronic kits to sell to schools in their catalog.  I had to design the circuits (mostly adapted from magazine articles), etch the PCBs, write, typeset and print the manuals and then package the finished kits.  I was 19 at the time and had no formal training other than being a "hobbyist".

Wayne

[Tandy]

I think qualified and quality don't got hand in hand.

This is true to some extent, there are plenty of Microsoft Certified Engineers for example that managed to qualify for the course but have no troubleshooting ability. Absorbing facts and being able to remember them to fill out an exam form is not the same as having the ability to develop a good understanding and the ability to think things through for yourself to arrive at a solution.

Education should teach people how to discover, process and apply reason to information rather than just teaching facts. For example you can teach someone that 6x6=36 so they can answer that question on a test form but it is pretty useless unless they understand how multiplication works so they can answer any multiplication question not only the one they have memorised an answer for.

It really comes down to aptitude, someone who has a keen interest in a subject will typically be motivated to keep delving deeper into something.

[(In)Sanity]

I think Pink Floyd said it best.   "Us and Them". 

Each of Us fits on one side of that sentence.  The "Us" always understands the point of view of the others who are "Us".  The same applies to "Them" however they also think they are "Us". 

The only reason I point this out is some of the bickering that goes on with forums.   People sometimes don't stop and stand back and realize you'll never agree with "Them".

Jeff

[Simon]

There is a compromise, those that do it for the love of it qualifications or not, they generally all do as well qualifications or not. All a qualification is for is to create a standard by which you can be pre measured and pre judged before your put to work. sadly our education system is a crap hole.

[jaxbird]

The real important question must be: will Dave's new employee have full access to the lab for personal projects?

I imagine running a little cal side business could compensate for the bad pay 

Anyway, in my experience most reasonably experienced electronics hobbyists are people with fairly successful careers in other fields. Maybe a student (fresh grad) or retired EE is the most likely candidate.

[tggzzz]

... I have nothing against qualifications and am starting to study them myself ...

Revealing, and now I understand your limited view of the world. (Everybody's view is, of course, limited).

I hope that, as you progress, you will come to value "pure theory" not only for itself, but also for the way it can shape and guide practice.

[Simon]

... I have nothing against qualifications and am starting to study them myself ...

Revealing, and now I understand your limited view of the world. (Everybody's view is, of course, limited).

I hope that, as you progress, you will come to value "pure theory" not only for itself, but also for the way it can shape and guide practice.

once again you assume that I don't understand the need for pure theory, that is why I'm studying ? and what stops anyone studying "pure theory" outside of qualifications.

I am not overly concerned about that bit of paper that I may get, what I value is the structured learning system that I will go through that will hopefully leave no stone unturned so that I don't need to keep learning whole ideas part way through a design

[idpromnut]

But in reality basic electronics design it's pretty much an all or nothing skillset. i.e. someone who can design a decent circuit will almost certainly have skills in laying out a board and building and testing. You are unlikely to find someone who can test and troubleshoot and lay out boards, but can't design basic building block circuits for example.
Ok, but someone might be crap at documentation for example, or firmware, well that can be taught and/or not necessary.

I was interested in electronics when I was younger, but never got that light-bulb moment of understanding and so many things about volts, amps, ohms and semi-conductors went over my head.

Fast forward 25 years, I had just become a father, changed jobs, and met a co-worker that was an embedded programmer by trade, and an electronics hobbyist by night. He quite literally set my curiosity off, and I ended up finding your blog and started soaking in knowledge, and experimenting and learning. That was two years ago. I'm now putting together designs based on reference circuits in data sheets, laying out PCBs and having them manufactured in the Far East, assembling them myself and debugging them when I get something wrong.

But I'm not sure I could design these so-called "simple" circuits… 

[free_electron]

I etched my first PCB while I was in high school by following examples I read about in hobby electronics magazines such as Popular Electronics and learned a great deal from such luminaries as Don Lancaster.  This was back around 1969-70, or so.  I got my first job at Mouser Electronics (back when it was a small import company based in Lakeside California) by identifying electronic components on a board.  The job was for a warehouse picker, but I did so well on the test that I got to meet the founder, Jerry Mouser, who gave me a job designing educational electronic kits to sell to schools in their catalog.  I had to design the circuits (mostly adapted from magazine articles), etch the PCBs, write, typeset and print the manuals and then package the finished kits.  I was 19 at the time and had no formal training other than being a "hobbyist".

Wayne

  well done !  that is the kind of self-starter motivation dave is looking for.

[AlienRelics]

You don't need to know Ohms law to make an Arduino board play a tune.

This makes me sad. I hang out in the Arduino forums, and I see this a lot. People coming in and wanting to build something, with no knowledge of Ohm's Law, or Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws, and no interest in learning them. They want to just write some code and plug jumpers in.

[VEGETA]

This makes me sad. I hang out in the Arduino forums, and I see this a lot. People coming in and wanting to build something, with no knowledge of Ohm's Law, or Kirchoff's Voltage and Current Laws, and no interest in learning them. They want to just write some code and plug jumpers in.

Well, in one side, it is a good feature of Arduino that simplify stuff to near this level, so anyone can start doing projects.

However, on the other side, it is bad. Because, I believe one should understand what he is doing rather than just follow some steps. I don't talk about finding how to change some configuration bits of the microcontroller or something like that, but to understand what microcontroller means. And this applies to doing electronics circuits.

I can not believe that people do good working projects without knowing Ohm's law xD. who said that is somehow over-estimating it.

___

I read a bit of the discussion  about theory's importance... look, I've seen and met professors and master degree engineers who can describe complex electrical drive methods/circuitry, simulate and analyze it via MATLAB, and  such stuff.... but they can not put one practical example of it!

Not only that, some of them may don't know how to program a PIC or an Arduino. Or talk about a design task like it was nothing! they just say: "Do this, and that... then you have that" << this is the typical behavior of someone who doesn't have ANY practical real-world skills!

They assume stuff will work fast just by following some typical circuits in textbooks with some tweaking. So, don't blame new engineers that lack some of these skills today because that is the type of education they take (or nearly like that).

I myself learned programming PICs by my own... along with all skills (not much fancy) that I have now. because relying on textbooks will take you nowhere!

Don't get me wrong, theory is essential and important. Just it is not everything.

[tchicago]

Hi, Dave. I think it is not a problem for hobbyist to have all those skills. There is a different problem: this is kind of expensive hobby so such hobbyist is probably already fully employed, and barely has some spare time for practicing electronics. So he or she would not be interested in this position due to lack of time

Take me for example (we met last year when I was in Australia) - I'm a purely-software engineer in a large software corporation, and I practice my electronics hobby at home. I have all skills you need, and if I was not a half world away from you, theoretically I'd be happy to help you for free. But in practice comes the question of free time - I'd not have a lot of it and most likely when I have free time this will probably not coincide with the time when you need help.

[Simon]

The whole point of the arduino was to simplify the programming side of things. But as electronics has a long standing history of someone specializing in one area and assuming they know everything this bled over very fast and basically it's a case of just because someone showed me how to flash an LED and told me to use a 1K resistor I can now do this and I don't need to know anything about how it works.

I gave up on the arduino forum when I got things like people insisting on the wrong way of applying back emf diodes and claiming they worked on aircraft systems.

Programming one thing and a vital skill, electronics is a collection of other vital skills involving analogue, digital and the practical applications of both.