EEVblab #2 - Are Electronics Hobbyists Useless?

[pickle9000]

I'm thinkn' this is a hobbyist.

[bsb0011]

I don't think anyone said that some "hobbyists" don't have the skills you listed.  You missed the point.

As a side note, I don't think you're going to find that skill set in a student.  I can't speak for Universities in Australia, but in the States, it's common for a EE grad to have very little hands on experience.  I see a whole lot of student's senior projects made with stuff cobbled together from Sparkfun - all hooked up with jumper wires.

And if you do find a student, then perhaps they could do a summer internship, but a full course load and working up to 30 hours a week?  That's slim pickings.  But....Maybe if they are required to an internship as part of their studies, then that would work.  But that's going to be even harder to find.  Why don't you go to someone of the local universities and ask? Surely they would need to 'vet you before they can sign off on you being part of their education.  They may even underwrite the whole thing.  (Also, they usually have job boards you can post on)  - that would be where I would start.

Anyways, there some helpful suggestions for you.

So that leaves you with an advanced "hobbyist".  If you can find someone with the skill set you listed, doesn't need money, then more power to you I guess.  (ya cheap bastard!)

Maybe the job title should be "Wanted:  Nerd that lives with his parents, doesn't smell too much, won't take up my time, and willing to work for peanuts." 

I have to agree.  Personally I have 3 associate degrees - computer, electrical, and electronics engineering technology degrees, and a BS in Electronics Engineering Technology.  I've won a national engineering contest from one of the largest semiconductor manufactures out there.  I've done private consulting doing digital design engineering services (design, prototyping, PCB layout, Auto CAD 3D Layout, testing, and firmware development - assembler code not C). I worked with finding suppliers for PCB board production, as well as parts and supplies. I am fluent in web design, and network setup and layout.  I've done work doing Indy film production, from camera operator to lighting design and programming, to stage and set building.  Also for the film work, I designed and built any production automation devices or other technical props where things move (think electronics and the such, to things like squibs for bullet hits and simulated gun fire hitting objects, as well as animated figures).  I was heavily involved in the editing of the digital footage as well.

Still my current employment is outside of electronics (I work in mechanical maintenance currently), and as such I would consider myself an electronics hobbyist as I do not currently make my living doing engineering work.

Would I qualify for your position?  I would surly think so.  I don't do much PC coding as I don't enjoy it, and I would rather do my embedded code in assembler than in any form of C any day of the week.  Yes, that means I have less portable code.  So what?  I'm not designing things to move from controller to controller, I'm designing things I like to build. I can program in C, but resent to doing so.

I've put in the time and practice to learn these things. I've been interested in these topics since grade school, and knew what I wanted to do as both a job and a hobby since middle school.  I spent the money on my own lab starting in High school, and by college I had a better analogue and digital lab than most colleges have.  I've spent a ton of cash on both my own lab, as well as my education.

But here is the bottom line - do you really think the skills listed above should pay less then a sign flipper on a road crew? Last time I was working in the electronics filed I commanded a very nice salary, in the mid-low 6 figure range (USD, not Peso's, Yuan, or Iraqi Dinar).

If you want to pay someone an interns pay grade, then I would expect you will have a hard time finding someone with all the skills you have listed, willing to work for peanuts. Even if they are "just" an "electronics hobbyist", if they have all the the skills you have listed, then I would expect they would want to get paid fair market value for their knowledge and the skills they bring.  What you are asking for is a junior engineer, a programmer, a video production assistant, and a shipping clerk. What you are offering to pay is peanuts.

I would point you over to "The Ben Heck Show" - you know the guy who made the funny barn yard animal toy play sound bites from you.  He has 2 people to help him in his shows.  One for video production and all around general non-technical helper, and another intern with some technical skills. Both do some very light "on-air" work. And I doubt that either works many hours a week. While I do not know the guy, I would speculate that the technical helper would not qualify for your job description, nor would he work for less than a sign flipper.

[Smokey]

I knew more about "electronics" before I enrolled in Uni...
Now I know a lot about control theory and math...

+1

[mikeselectricstuff]

I think it is reasonable to expect the range of skills stated from someone with interest and enthusiasm for electronics, but maybe not from someone that started college with no electronics at all, unless they've become interested enough to learn stuff outside of their college course.
By far the most important thing is enthusiasm and ability to learn on their own. There is no shortage of learning materials nowadays, and hardware is cheap and available.

[wigman27]

Dave,

I certainly don't think you are asking to much at all, I am a first year student, have been doing electronics for a few years now and this is one of my first designs.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Arduino-Programmable-Constant-Current-Power-Resist/

•   Have experience as a hobbyist with analog, digital, microcontroller design, mainly ATMEL (Both Arduino and standalone ATMEL)
•   I have a web development business (not too busy, just the way I like it) and experience with PC programming, PHP, HTML5, CSS3 Some basic Linux knowledge.
•   Have basic experience in PCB and Schematic design (have researched quite a lot).
•   I am of the opinion that if you can't explain something in a way that's easy to understand, that you don't understand it well enough. Because of this I like to fully understand something before assisting others, this allows me to communicate concepts with ease.
•   Very competent in the use of a PC.
•   I use AutoCAD a lot!
•   Love a good trip to the dump!
•   I am a fully qualified Work Health and Safety Representative (HSR)

Lists all the things you mention, so yes, I am living proof that we do exist and we are even in Australia!

So no, I understand exactly what you are after!

[s_lannan]

I thought it all was quite reasonable.

My opinion was that Dave's videos were a godsend to hobbyists and engineering students, filling in many voids that a university education has.
He's after a go-getter, so the breed of lazy bare-minimum students I saw during my studies need not apply....

*added*
It was actually a little heart breaking to discover nobody had any passion at all in this field when commencing university level studies

[tautech]

Dave,

I certainly don't think you are asking to much at all,

Lists all the things you mention, so yes, I am living proof that we do exist and we are even in Australia!

So no, I understand exactly what you are after!

I hope your name is Sydney  and you have put your hat in the ring. 

[iurius]

At this moment, Dave, I'm afraid you might get into a loooo...ooong search for an assistant. The reason is, people with the level you require are already into business, those who might be willing to get this job are mostly young and unprepared   
  I'm starting thinking that your wife might do a good job if you teach her the basics, especially what concerns mailing, packing, and other logistics stuff (this way the money stay in the "la famiglia"    ).
  All the best! Thank you for the blog!   

[Smokey]

Dave,

I certainly don't think you are asking to much at all,

Lists all the things you mention, so yes, I am living proof that we do exist and we are even in Australia!

So no, I understand exactly what you are after!

I hope your name is Sydney  and you have put your hat in the ring. 

Or he could be willing to change his name.... and buy a hat...

[Kjelt]

Dave, perhaps instead of searching for a small lamb/sheep with 7 legs already standing on all 7 of them, start looking for an eager one with 4 reasonable legs willing to learn to grow the other 3 ones.
If you want someone who already has all the experience what is he going to learn from you? How to connect a BTTF timeclock with the wrong polarity? Just kidding  .
You want an eager smart apprentice, so look for one who fits 60% of what you asked and teach him the other 40% on the job. At least it will be more balanced.

[nathanpc]

This wasn't too much of a surprise to me. I think what Dave was asking was totally fair and are the qualities of a serious electronics hobbyist, but the fact is, most electronics hobbyists today are just "casual". They are in the hobby just to hack something together when they want, build a circuit that they've found interesting, build a kit, etc. Usually the "serious" hobbyists (the ones Dave is looking for) are the people that want to become EEs like me, and absolutely love electronics (and everything surrounding it).

[iemand]

I agree that most students in the third year of electrical engineering at my university don't have the skills you ask for. This is because they see electrical engineering as school stuff and they do not want to do anything as a hobby.

However: there is a group of people who really like parts of electrical engineering and that group does have the skills you describe, they are genuinely interested in electronics and they build their own projects because they think it's fun. It is only because of this that they have (most of) the skills you describe.

During the electrical engineering study at my university you won't learn how to do any IT thing at al (but: the IT of the EE study association is way better managed than the IT of the informatics study association, because some people think it's fun to do and they DO have the skills you talk about). Same for a lot of other skills: the university won't teach you how to design a PCB. The only thing they teach you is theoretical knowledge, mathematics and other skills like writing a thesis and working in a project group. The real, practical knowledge is something you only learn because you want to, not because the university tells you to.

You don't ask too much of students, you just have to swipe away the large stack of applications from people who do not have the skills you will find in real hobbyists.

By the way: I like the new blab video's 

(Edit: There is also a big difference in what I call "hobbyists" and the so called "tinkerers". Tinkerers do not know any theory behind how the stuff they are building works. Even in the hobbyist group there is a huge difference between the knowledge of individual people)

[PelzigesOhr]

Just to repeat what everyone else already told: I believe that there should be students fitting your requirements, too.

I don't know about the school system in Australia, but there are technical vocational colleges in Germany where pretty much all of these skills are covered in practical and theoretical courses over a two year period, even before the students are allowed to attend universities.

[VK5RC]

I don't think Dave is going to have any problems finding a reasonable person to fit the job.
From the South Australian Amateur radio community alone, I can think of 3 or 4 candidates who would be highly suitable, and Adelaide is a lot smaller than Sydney. One "hobbyist" designed and built a GPS tracking balloon (difficult at high altitude) with photos, two way command-control radio link, arranged permission with all the Authorities (very difficult) at about age 18.
These very capable guys / gals are out there and need / deserve support. GO DAVE!

[Tandy]

In my own case.  I was an EE student but switched to CompSci my SENIOR year.   It was the mid 80's and I simply decided that I liked all the new exciting computer stuff more.  I don't regret that decision, the 80s, 90s, and first decade of the 2000's were exciting times in IT and provided a very interesting career.

I think you have described the situation for many. I studied engineering that was mostly electronics with the intention of becoming an electronics engineer. However the electronics industry was dying in the UK but the closest I got to the electronics industry was working in a Tandy shop. All the electronics jobs were going to Japan at the time so experienced engineers were loosing their jobs, there was no hope for a inexperienced recruit.

On the other hand the computer industry was growing massively and there was a great deal more opportunity for employment in IT so that is where my career path went. I also have no regrets as I joined an internet company in the early days of the internet and it was exciting to be part of something as it was developing. Electronics remained for me a hobby but with the explosion of cheap Chinese made products that meant you could get practically anything ready made for a fraction of the cost of building something meant that rarely would I get out a soldering iron during the 90s & 00s.

Fast forward to today and thankfully there seems to be somewhat of a revival of interest in electronics but it is different to how it used to be. You can make some quite interesting things with the most basic knowledge. You don't need to know Ohms law to make an Arduino board play a tune. It was this growing community of people who started off making an Arduino play a tune or flash an LED that reignited my interest and even resulted in a big career change for me that resulted in buying the remaining parts of Tandy from RadioShack to get back into the Electronics business.

[Artlav]

Funny thing is - you think yourself way behind the others, looking at all the cool projects around.
But then Dave makes a rant, and turns out your skill set is quite a bit above average.

Perhaps the problem is that people see the requirements like "laying out the board", think about a couple years of classes and thick books describing al the tricks and potholes, and conclude that it's a professional skill?

Meanwhile, a hobbyist just goes head on into the trouble, oblivious to it's complexity.
Like i told in that stillborn thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/how-you-got-into-electronics-tell-your-story/

On the ZXSpectrum childhood vs Iphone childhood - i can't help but notice that it's a problem that teaches, not capability.
Few things motivate a child to learn about electronics better than a broken game console and a desire to play on it.
What can break in an Iphone? 

[EEVblog]

It was actually a little heart breaking to discover nobody had any passion at all in this field when commencing university level studies

Yes, I was depressed and surprised at this too.
I just assumed (this is before the communications revolution kiddies) that anyone studying electronics would be as passionate as I was, and they would all read Electronics Australia, have their own lab etc, it was a real shock to find out that most didn't care at all. And by most I mean >95% of fellow students I met. I could count fellow hobbyists on one hand.
My straw poll was always "do you read EA?"
Quite a few computer geeks though.
Word quickly got around that I was the guy that knew it all and could get your lab project going when it didn't work.

[Tandy]

On the ZXSpectrum childhood vs Iphone childhood - i can't help but notice that it's a problem that teaches, not capability.
Few things motivate a child to learn about electronics better than a broken game console and a desire to play on it.
What can break in an Iphone? 

This is the same with most things, in the early days when a technology is emerging it tends to be understandable to an individual. But as the field develops things get more and more complex where only professionals can understand and even then usually a team of professionals each with a different area of expertise. The ZX-Spectrum could easily be designed and built by a single engineer but an iPhone requires complex mathematics with impedance matched connections and paths on the board laid out to minimise RF interference etc. Not something someone could just take apart and tinker with.

[EEVblog]

Dave, perhaps instead of searching for a small lamb/sheep with 7 legs already standing on all 7 of them, start looking for an eager one with 4 reasonable legs willing to learn to grow the other 3 ones.
If you want someone who already has all the experience what is he going to learn from you? How to connect a BTTF timeclock with the wrong polarity? Just kidding  .
You want an eager smart apprentice, so look for one who fits 60% of what you asked and teach him the other 40% on the job. At least it will be more balanced.

Who's said I would not consider that? I thought my job description implied that anyway?
I said:

The role is expected to be quite fluid based on your skillset.

But in reality basic electronics design it's pretty much an all or nothing skillset. i.e. someone who can design a decent circuit will almost certainly have skills in laying out a board and building and testing. You are unlikely to find someone who can test and troubleshoot and lay out boards, but can't design basic building block circuits for example.
Ok, but someone might be crap at documentation for example, or firmware, well that can be taught and/or not necessary.

[Tandy]

Who's said I would not consider that? I thought my job description implied that anyway?

Personally when looking at skills on a Job application I tend to assume that I would be required to be proficient in them all.

[EEVblog]

At this moment, Dave, I'm afraid you might get into a loooo...ooong search for an assistant.

Well, seems you are wrong. I already have at least a couple of local decent sounding candidates, and have a another half dozen resumes I haven't looked at yet.
And a couple of decent sounding overseas candidates if I was getting desperate (I prefer local).
Of course it might all come to naught come interview time, but they sound decent on paper.

[madires]

Just to repeat what everyone else already told: I believe that there should be students fitting your requirements, too.

I agree, not many but a few. Long time ago when I studied EE a few percent of the students already had some experience with electronics and/or it was their hobby. The majority had no idea how a resistor looks like or how to read the color code. To find the gems, ask them about projects. Ask them to bring a project to the interview. Makes also a good topic to talk about.

[Wilksey]

I think it is reasonable to expect the range of skills stated from someone with interest and enthusiasm for electronics, but maybe not from someone that started college with no electronics at all, unless they've become interested enough to learn stuff outside of their college course.
By far the most important thing is enthusiasm and ability to learn on their own. There is no shortage of learning materials nowadays, and hardware is cheap and available.

Mike has hit the nail on the head, it's all about enthusiasm!

When I was studying I had high enthusiasm for electronics, and as Tandy pointed out there was not much in the way of industry for EE's, so I focused more on software development, however I never lost my interest or enthusiasm for electronics and I am now doing both software and hardware design and engineering.

These days being around it all of the time, my enthusiasm kicks back in when something breaks and I need to find out why, the rest of the process like design etc, is mostly the same stuff over and over again with a few improvements here or there.  Occasionally I will make something to kill the monotony of treading over old ground, and I think as long as I can get my occasional kicks from it then I will still maintain interest.

I have noticed an increase trend of companies buying more off-the-shelf now, maybe due to the likes of the Arduino, nobody has to think or engineer anything anymore, they just monkey along.

I sometimes program my PIC's in assembler for 2 reasons.
1. To confuse the "new age" engineer
2. To get that warm fuzzy feeling of working with the actual chip rather than a set of libraries put together by some muppet.

I don't know what it's like in Aus, but in the UK the level of what they spit out of Uni these days is diabolical!
You do get SOME that are worth more than given credit for, but from my own experience they are very few and far between.  I.E. I don't consider getting a Arduino or RPi to blink an LED becoming a "EE", it's definitely a start but most stop there as it is "too difficult".

[Wilksey]

At this moment, Dave, I'm afraid you might get into a loooo...ooong search for an assistant.

Well, seems you are wrong. I already have at least a couple of local decent sounding candidates, and have a another half dozen resumes I haven't looked at yet.
And a couple of decent sounding overseas candidates if I was getting desperate (I prefer local).
Of course it might all come to naught come interview time, but they sound decent on paper.

I hope you do find someone, but don't forget, those that say they can, can sometimes not.

What is your timescale for hiring someone?  Just wondering when we are likely to see this new recruit if you find a decent one.

[EEVblog]

Mike has hit the nail on the head, it's all about enthusiasm!

Why do you think I put the word in my first sentence of the job description