Author Topic: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell  (Read 58382 times)

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Offline Bloch

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #125 on: December 29, 2014, 03:00:48 pm »
On the other hand, writing code full of errors  is a sign of carelessness and lack of attention to detail, I don't see that it has much to do with spelling except perhaps in variable names and in the comments. Most variable names are either simple abbreviations or not English words at all.
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Online mikeselectricstuff

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #126 on: December 29, 2014, 06:39:28 pm »
Dave, you hit a raw nerve here. It makes me wonder how people who cannot spell are even promoted beyond primary school, let alone enter university.

So if a person have dyslexia you dont that person to go to the university ?

I do not like that way that sounds sorry ! We dont agree here at all.

But I am agreeing if the person was just lazy. 

About you fixing some code with spelling mistakes. It sounds more like too little documentation. And that is the boss there is to blame. That it the standard the code has now! Not only the programmer that cant spell.
A lot of these recent posts seem to be conflating having difficulties with spelling with carelessness. I have difficulties with spelling certain words often because I didn't hear them correctly as a child, for example for years I spelt librarian as liberian because that is how I heard it. I am aware of this and I would say that I am much less careless than others who naturally know how to spell.
It's not the carelessness in spelling, it's that, knowing your spelling isn't good, you can't be bothered to ask someone else to check what could potentially be the most important thing you ever write. 
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Offline jquinn11733

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #127 on: December 29, 2014, 07:13:16 pm »
Just my two cents, from a semi-academic.........
We teach our engineering students some specific taboos (NEVER do) for resumes:
1) Spell check
2) Only send as PDF.
3) Unique filename: (fname-lname-date-company.PDF), never never "resume.doc" or any "??.doc".
4) Do not write about improving yourself or getting experience.
     Write about you and your growing experience, to improve the company.
5) Spell check
6) Spell check
7) Spell check

You really need to see actual resumes in a full job-search to see how bad the
competition performs.   Reading resumes is painful.  Reading bad resumes is comical.
However, they shorten the pile quickly.
regards,
- JQuinn11733

 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #128 on: December 29, 2014, 08:48:17 pm »
It's not the carelessness in spelling, it's that, knowing your spelling isn't good, you can't be bothered to ask someone else to check what could potentially be the most important thing you ever write.
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

You really need to see actual resumes in a full job-search to see how bad the competition performs.   Reading resumes is painful.  Reading bad resumes is comical. However, they shorten the pile quickly.
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

If you aren't at least smart enough to know that people will judge you by your resume/CV, then you aren't smart enough to work for me.  Go apply at my competitor and good luck to you.
 

Offline Lennos

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #129 on: December 29, 2014, 10:14:10 pm »
Not at all. In fact what I find even more disturbing is the amount of whingers that try to justify why it doesn't matter or how employers are being too hard and how it should be about their skills, blah, blah, blah. Quite simply writing is a skill and one of the most important in your career. I have hired many people both as a company director and manager in other businesses and I have some simple points learnt through experience and also common sense:
1. Your resume or CV is the first impression you make on a potential employer so spend the time to get it right.
2. Amongst a number of things it demonstrates quality of work, work ethic and effort to employers. In my experience potential employees who get this right at the beginning tend to bring these attributes to their day job once successful.
3. Those who don't do the first two, not only do not bring professionalism, quality and pride in their job, but are usually also problem employees, are usually the ones always making excuses why they didn't get things done or had to be redone multiple times, and are the ones you end up having to initiate employee action plans for, and they either get managed out as under performers or leave before they get their black mark.
4. I am not so strict as to say a missing apostrophe here or a misplaced comma there is enough to get your resume sailing to the bin (you can always tell good resumes from bad ones), but where the first few sentences or opening paragraphs are so poorly written then don't be surprised that your resume is likely to just get tossed within 30 seconds if I am evaluating.

Another thing that amazes me is the amount of employment agencies that submit candidate CV's loaded full of grammar and spelling mistakes and then want to take a percentage of the candidates remuneration for the supposed great service they have provided the person. I have actually cancelled agency contracts with my businesses because of such poor service to their candidates and I don't have time to read through masses of poor resumes.
 
5. Do not trust employment agencies to do your resume/CV's. There is a reason we call them Pimps. If you are lucky enough to find a good one, stick with them and follow the individual from agency to agency, but otherwise, submit your resume to them, have them put their supposed corporate formatting to it, then re-read it after they have finished with it and make sure it is ok. You are also likely to get a sense of how little they are doing for you (don't be surprised). Proof reading what they have done with your resume also gives you a chance to correct any remaining errors.

Sorry about the rant Dave, but whingers and excuse makers need putting in their place. No doubt there will be hordes of them in response to my comments which will only prove the points. Apologies for missing accents I guess I won't get the job.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #130 on: December 29, 2014, 10:49:41 pm »
Dave, you hit a raw nerve here. It makes me wonder how people who cannot spell are even promoted beyond primary school, let alone enter university.

So if a person have dyslexia you dont want that person to go to the university ?

I do not like the way that sounds! We dont agree here at all.

But if the person was just lazy then we can talk. 

About you fixing some code with spelling mistakes. It sounds more like too little documentation. And that it is the boss there is to blame. That the documenting of  the code was not better. Did he just write 50000 lines without another person did a check on it? I don't think you problem was, that the programmer cant spell.


Regarding the 50,000 lines of code, there was documentation but it was irrelevant to the code. Part of documentation is revisions to ensure the documentation matches reality. But no-one could actually understand the code to check.

That company had no C coding standards and no code reviews. Any decent company will have documented C coding standards if it writes embedded C code for a product. Company PCB design standards is also necessary if the company design product PCB's, especially when it comes to library management. Not having standards is a recipe for a mess. Code reviews and PCB design reviews should be mandatory for every engineer, irrespective of seniority, experience, ego and education. Reviews often help the newer engineers, even if they are just spectators.

Fortunately the company I work with has two documents called Coding Standards (which covers C, C#, Labview and C++) and PCB Design Standards. Every new electronic engineer or programmer gets to read these. The standards are followed and we have design and coding reviews as part of the process. The result is almost no PCB revisions due to mistakes, and C code which does not need rewriting. It saves a lot of time and money in the long run.

There are some people with dylexia, agreed, but that is not as many as the percentage of engineers I have found whose grammar is substandard. In the past when reviewing some documentation, I have found myself feeling like a school teacher correcting an essay. I have better things to do. The cause of the upper and lower case could be just laziness because there is evidence of inconsistency. For example, "The Motor shall be Driven with a pulse width Modulated signal. The motor driver shall Be Short circuit protected."
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 11:32:14 pm by VK3DRB »
 

Offline SL4P

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2014, 02:58:34 am »
The bottom line...
In engineers could spell, what would the rest of the world do?

Don't ask a question if you aren't willing to listen to the answer.
 

Offline Psi

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2014, 04:02:39 am »
The bottom line...
In engineers could spell, what would the rest of the world do?



 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD    was that intentional?
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Offline BobC

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2014, 09:05:34 am »
Sorry to arrive so late to the party...

Summary (for the TL;DR folks): The only purpose of a Resume and Cover Letter is to get you an interview.  That's it.  Read on for how to make that happen.

Almost 50% of my career has been spent as a contractor (self-employed, selling my time by the hour), and while my primary expertise is real-time embedded systems design and programming, much of my time has been spent helping clients build teams to create such systems.  Over the years I've spent a bunch of time with recruiters, HR departments and managers going through literally thousands of resumes, leading to hundreds of interviews.  And I've been the interviewee for nearly 50 interviews myself, both as a contractor and a job-seeker.

I keep a list of the application (and applicant) attributes that lead to hires, and I always ask new-hires what they did to prepare.  So, here are the top items from my list, first from the perspective of the applicant:

1. RESEARCH!  Research the position.  Research the company/division offering the position.  Research the parent company and any subsidiary companies.  Research their products and customers (and partners and vendors, if possible).  Check social media (e.g., Linked-In) for every relevant name you can find.  In other words, go beyond the job description and understand its context.

2. TARGETING!  Tailor your resume for that specific job.  Minimize or delete the irrelevant, expand the relevant.  Write a cover letter that clearly highlights how your history addresses the key aspects of the job description.  Think of the Job Description, Resume and Cover Letter as a combined entity that must support clear mappings between all its parts.  And for beginners or those entering a new career track, use the cover letter to address gaps between your experience and the job requirements (don't hide them or make us waste time digging for them - be honest).

What I do is keep a long (5-page) "Master" resume that contains long, medium and short descriptions for everything I have ever done, then I cut and paste from it to quickly create the first draft of the submission resume.  The resume must be no longer than TWO (2) pages, and the cover-letter no longer than about half a page.  And DO NOT shrink the font to fit more on the page: A dense resume automatically goes into the "TL;DR" pile.  All documents must be submitted as PDF.  However, some companies still use HR software from the prior millennium, so be prepared to provide whatever format they desire, but only when requested.  Always submit in PDF.

3. Whenever possible, work with a recruiter.   Think of recruiters as "outsourced HR", rather than as head-hunters.  They are the shortest path between you and the hiring manager.  It is silly to take a longer path when a shortcut is available.  Some recruiters may request exclusive rights to place you:  Generally say no, so you can work with as many recruiters as possible.  Buy them coffee (though they tend to buy coffee, and more, for the really good candidates).

4. PREPARE FOR THE INTERVIEW!  Drive there the day before, so you know what to expect for traffic and travel time.  Do NOT trust the Google Maps time estimate.  Arrive 15-30 minutes early.  Go to the bathroom.  Review the notes from your research.  Bring multiple hard copies of everything (including the job description) as well as copies on a thumb drive.  Bring a pad of paper and a pen for notes (do NOT take notes on a phone or tablet or laptop).  Wear good looking, comfortable clothes.  When in doubt, it is always better to overdress than to be too casual.  Avoid too much caffeine or too large a meal before the interview (but don't be dehydrated or starving).

There are many factors that go into a good interview, but none of them matter if you walk in the door unprepared or uncomfortable.

5. FOLLOW-UP!  Always get the email address of the senior person you interview with, and ALWAYS send a "Thank-You" email immediately after the interview.  If you have something additional to mention, do so, but keep the email short and sweet.


So, how does this look from the employer's perspective?  Remember: Any technical job opening typically receives 30-300 applications.  There is NO WAY the employer can spend much time looking at each and every one.  So the process is decomposed into multiple passes, to arrive at an interview list of the top 3-5 applicants.

1. Take 10-60 seconds to skim the application to see if it is worth considering.  In reality, this means reading only the cover letter and/or the summary section of the resume.

HINT: Make it as easy as possible to get through the first stage.  Visual appearance matters: A nice font and good page layout make reading easier, and may encourage reading more!  A well-written and well-presented cover letter and resume are a joy to read.  The cover letter sets up the highlights, meaning the resume only needs to be skimmed (not read in depth). 

2. Rank the remaining candidates by how well their application corresponds to the specific job requirements.  This is a checklist that is completed for each applicant, and typically takes about 5 minutes.  Discard all that don't meet the absolute minimum requirements.

HINT:  This is easiest when the cover letter and resume both use words and phrases from the job description.  And uses them CORRECTLY!  Don't expect us translate between what you wrote into what we want:  We don't have the time, and won't bother.

3. Pass the successful packages on to the group the applicant will work with, to get input from prospective peers and supervisors/managers.  These folks will provide a pro/con list for each candidate, where the list contains whatever factors they care about, where anything and everything is allowed, short of discrimination or bigotry.  In some companies, the applicant name, age and sex are removed from the package for this phase.  The final item on the list must be an up/down vote to proceed to an interview.  Eliminate all candidates that get no up votes.

HINT:  This is where the tone and voice of the cover letter and resume really matter.  Even engineers who have trouble writing well still love to read good writing.  Don't sound hyped-up like an infomercial, nor as stale as a datasheet: Be factual with a positive attitude.

4. Build the on-site interview list from the most favored candidates.  If the list of good candidates is too long (a blessing in disguise), phone or email pre-interviews may be performed, especially for promising junior folks with gaps in their qualifications.  On-site interviews are expensive in terms of company man-hours, so they are typically scheduled in rounds.  If no hire comes from the first round of interviews, then the interview list is refilled from the remaining favored candidates and another round is scheduled.

HINT: Prepared, relaxed candidates are an absolute joy to interview.  Sometimes, nobody wants the interview to stop!  For this reason, try to schedule your interviews for the morning, so they have the option to take you to lunch, just in case the interview goes splendidly.

HINT: At the end of the interview, you will ALWAYS be asked if you have any questions.  This is why you have a notepad and have been taking occasional notes during the interview.  Good questions automatically raise the status of a candidate: Try to have a few ready in advance.  Avoid questions unrelated to the interview or the job description, such as about benefits or working hours (which should be asked only after receiving an offer).

5. Schedule follow-up interviews (generally by phone or email) for the successful candidates.  This is the "money shot": Few folks get hired from the first interview alone, and these days there is seldom a need for a second on-site interview (though it does happen when two candidates are extremely close).

HINT: This is another reason for the thank-you email: It makes it easier to contact you again, as you're already in their inbox.

I use the above process even when I'm building a group from scratch (I'm the only reviewer and interviewer).  My goal is to find the best candidates ASAP, get them interviewed ASAP, and make the hiring decisions ASAP.  Typically, the hire was needed months ago but the process was postponed due to overload, the schedule is already slipping, and I'm doing the applicant processing during evenings and weekends.  So don't waste my time: Make it as easy as possible for me to hire you!


Bottom line, the ONLY purpose of your Cover Letter and Resume is TO GET YOU AN INTERVIEW!  Anything that gets in the way of that goal must be ruthlessly eliminated, and everything the job description asks for MUST be present (or its absence explained in the cover letter - be honest).

-BobC
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 10:41:45 am by BobC »
 

Offline jpb

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2014, 10:51:46 am »
Sorry to arrive so late to the party...

Summary (for the TL;DR folks): The only purpose of a Resume and Cover Letter is to get you an interview.  That's it.  Read on for how to make that happen.


What I do is keep a long (5-page) "Master" resume that contains long, medium and short descriptions for everything I have ever done, then I cut and paste from it to quickly create the first draft of the submission resume.  The resume must be no longer than TWO (2) pages, and the cover-letter no longer than about half a page.
-BobC
Thanks BobC for a very comprehensive (and useful) post. As someone who is currently job hunting and has done so many times in the past, I agree with almost all of it. I'd just like to add some comments based on my experience.

Your comment on recruiters I am, much to my own surprise, coming around to agreeing with. In the past I've always viewed recruiters as useless parasites and avoided them as much as possible. But recently I have found that they have got me interviews for jobs which I wouldn't have applied for as my experience wasn't an exact match with the requirements. (This is more in the area of software than hardware.) For example, the job description may ask for 2 or 3 years C# experience and a good knowledge of networks - neither of which I have, but I do have decades of C programming experience, experience of C++ and an undergraduate level of knowledge of networks and the ability (I hope) to learn new technology. From the job description I wouldn't even apply but then the recruiter rings me up and liaises with the company and I end up getting interviewed.

Your advice on CV (resume) and covering letter length are good targets, and are probably correct in the context of embedded systems engineering jobs but not for all technical jobs. For example many jobs produce detailed and numbered "person descriptions" and the covering letter needs to provide something in response to every point and doing this can often run to a couple of pages.
Also, for older people like me,  I think your CV needs to cover all jobs you've done since university and even just putting a couple of sentences to say what each was together with a list of qualifications and say a paragraph on the most recent job in my case overflows the two page limit.

Where I have tried to cut out historic information because of lack of space this leads to apparent gaps in my history which looks even worse.

Additionally, such things as details of two or three referees are often required, and the most logical place to put these (in my view) is on the CV otherwise the employer needs to ask for them separately. The referees then will also probably take up most of a page.

Academic/teaching jobs also require much longer CVs as they want publications to be listed - but that is not of direct relevance to most engineers.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 10:57:35 am by jpb »
 

Offline tbscope

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2014, 11:21:03 am »
...and I'm doing the applicant processing during evenings and weekends.  So don't waste my time:

I can understand that you have a lot to do. And I only have respect for people who work long hours each day.
My sister runs her own graphics design business, and it is very hard to make a living out of it.

But shouldn't you hire someone do to the applicant processing for you?

Managers who do not have time don't know how to delegate or do not have enough people to make their workload lighter. That usually also translates further down the chain (you can often see this in governments).

I personally hate making resumes or going to interviews. You're almost never the only candidate, and most of the times, the person who prostitutes himself or herself the best gets seen the first.
A resume or a first impression can say something about the person, but it doesn't give you insight in the personallity of that person. You hire someone for the long run, not for an interview.

 

Offline BobC

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2014, 12:22:54 pm »
@jpb:

I've also been in industry for a few decades, and have seen lots of changes on both sides of the interview table.  I've written job descriptions for, and help fill, positions in all of engineering, including technicians, EEs, MEs, systems engineers, software engineers, buyers, sales/marketing, and also for managers.  I've even been offered a partnership in a technical recruiting firm, which I declined because I'm an engineer first, last and always.

Old jobs kept as separate entries on the resume can indicate over-attachment to the past (que Springsteen's "Glory Days").  They can also invite age discrimination (ask me how I know), even when the employer attempts to prevent it.  Instead, I recommend summarizing early employers as a group, with a single time span, listed as "multiple employers, details available upon request", possibly with a synopsis of the responsibilities and accomplishments.  This would apply for any set of jobs doing basically the same thing. In general, only the past decade needs to be covered in detail and the rest summarized, with exceptions only when experience exists that is directly relevant to the job description, and is not present in any more recent position.  For example, I don't list anything close to the full record of my consulting clients (dozens of them): I give a date range and a list of the work performed.  The same approach works for multiple jobs.

To be clear: Don't "cut out" anything - compactly summarize it instead.

About references: I always say "References Available Upon Request After Interview", even if the employer or recruiter requests otherwise.  My reasons are: 1) My references are busy and important folks, 2) their contact information is very private, 3) they should be contacted only when it really matters, and 4) I want to give them a heads-up that they should expect a call.  I have never had this become an issue, not even once.

I do a similar thing for salary history: As a contractor I have, on occasion, briefly made obscene amounts of money, something I choose not to reveal when applying for conventional employment.  I merely ask for their target salary range, and let them know if my history is compatible with it.

Of course, the above may not be possible when applying to the government or a defense contractor, which is one reason I generally avoid them and stick with smaller, more independent companies (though I'll put up with anything for a job I really want: I have worked for both the government and defense contractors on some amazing projects).

I'd recommend using a professional (and reputable) resume service, and have them review your resume.  I expect they will repeat my advice to the letter.  A good resume service is a great investment.  The better professional recruiters provide the service for free to their candidates.

Never exceed two pages: That goal should provide the incentive needed to eliminate the irrelevant, summarize the ancient, and emphasize the relevant.  That is to say, no JOB requires more than a 2-page resume.  Remember, the resume is not who you are: It is your highly targeted request for an interview for a specific job.  Don't ask anyone to read anything that slows that process, not even the slightest bit, for they will simply move on to the clearer resumes.

If more detail is desired they will ask: there is no need to force-feed it to them.  I always have my "Master" resume with me at every interview, just in case.  While cramming all that information into the initial resume would be a huge mistake, pulling it out during an interview has caused some very positive reactions!  After all, once I'm in the room there's no hiding my age: Backing it up with a book of experience can add "gravitas" at just the right moment.

And, yeah, compressing a resume to expand upon only the relevant can be a bit painful: I'm having a fantastic career that's been tons of fun and that I'm immensely proud of, and I love sharing everything about it.  But a friend once put it into perspective: "If it were really that special, you'd tattoo it onto your ass."

Needless to say, I have no resume tattoos.


@tbscope: 

That's what recruiters are for!  But you still must process the candidates they forward to you, and check that they are not dropping good candidates because they don't fully understand the job description (or the job description is poorly written).  Any given hire can make or break a group, so the process deserves the direct involvement of those affected by it.  So, again, it is best that applicants don't waste our time: Respect our time instead, and make it as easy as possible for us to select YOU instead of someone else who has no clue how things get done.

Also, the fees recruiters charge (often equal to 50% of the first year's salary) comes out of the engineering budget: I'd much rather spend that money on debuggers, o'scopes, faster workstations, and attending technical conferences.  Or even giving a bit more salary to the new hire.

Finally, butt-kissers never get the job, except when the entire team consists of butt-kissers.  They're easy to weed out during the interview.

The most difficult interviews are new graduates.  They have no experience, have no idea how the system works, and have little idea what a good interview is.  We bend over backwards to help them, put them at ease, explain what's going on, and to get to who they are and what they have to offer.

There is an art to being a good interviewee, with lots of tips and tricks that can be applied to avoid pitfalls and problems.  But being a good interviewer is a higher art, since we must also be able to achieve our goals even when presented with a weak interviewee.  Those interviews we call "interrogation" or "wringing out the sponge".  Some folks just don't do well in interviews, yet may be good team members: A good interviewer can tell, will take it into account, and will work around it.

The worst thing for an interviewee is to be faced with an incompetent or incapable interviewer.  The interviewee must tactfully take over the interview and subtly direct it as needed, a very tough path to create and follow.  Something I've had to do several times, especially with prospective consulting clients.  The only way I've found to gain that skill is to do lots of interviews (each with a ton of preparation), even when you are content with your present job.  Interviewing is a skill that requires experience to build and improve, the more the better.


-BobC
« Last Edit: December 30, 2014, 01:24:33 pm by BobC »
 

Offline jpb

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2014, 01:00:10 pm »
@BobC
Thanks for the response.

You're right, ageism is an issue I think - but even lumping jobs together, unless the dates are left off or expressed as pre - 2005 say are not going to hide the fact that I'm an older candidate.
I've been pleasantly surprised though recently that I've managed to have quite a few interviews so perhaps my CV is ok.

The ageism thing can be quite subtle, such as in the type of tests employers set - e.g. one job I went for (programming) the tests were of the speed type, older brains are slower simply because they have more information to retrieve from so such tests will always be biased towards new graduates rather than those with experience. Also much of an interview is about how people feel the candidate will fit in, and if the others in the team are all in their twenties they will subconsciously feel an older candidate doesn't quite fit right regardless of skill set.

I think the idea of lumping jobs of a similar type together is a good one. Though where, as in my case, there has been a career change it is sometimes the case that my older experience is more relevant to a post than my more recent experience the lumping becomes more problematical.

The issue of tailoring CVs to jobs is one area where recruiters can get in the way. They tend to just send off the same fixed CV and you don't get the same opportunity that you have in a direct application.

You're right though, it is hard to leave stuff out of a CV.

 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2014, 11:52:20 pm »
When I look at resumes I also look at hobbies and interests. For electronics engineering, if they have a hobby related to electronics such as hacking or ham radio, that is a big plus and unless something else is missing they generally get an interview. I have never been burnt yet with hiring someone who lives and breaths the craft because they want to, not because they have to. In any case, during the second interview always test the applicant's knowledge, irrespective of their qualifications and reported experience. No, I don't give them a spelling bee ;D, but if they have written code I like to see evidence of the quality of their work.

One volunteer is worth ten conscripts.
 

Offline Fred27

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2014, 09:33:52 am »
I also look at hobbies and interests, but I'm really looking for something totally unrelated to the job. It doesn't matter what it is. Just something to hint at a rounded personality. If all you ever do is EE, your hobby is EE and you read about EE, then you might be technically great but you'll be dull as anything to work with. Maybe that's not fair, but I do. I once employed sunstone whose hobby was *watching* football (soccer). He turned out to be very lazy. Playing football, however badly, would have been a much better sign.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #140 on: January 01, 2015, 01:31:50 am »
I also look at hobbies and interests, but I'm really looking for something totally unrelated to the job. It doesn't matter what it is. Just something to hint at a rounded personality. If all you ever do is EE, your hobby is EE and you read about EE, then you might be technically great but you'll be dull as anything to work with. Maybe that's not fair, but I do. I once employed sunstone whose hobby was *watching* football (soccer). He turned out to be very lazy. Playing football, however badly, would have been a much better sign.
A CV with a section on Hobbies and Interests is a sure fire way of finding itself filed in the waste paper basket. I don't know of any professional that would reduce themselves to that shit. It is the hallmark of someone writing a CV from the advice of people working for the public sector Job Centre as professional CV mentors and tells a lot.

Quite simply, tailor the CV to the job. Then pray no shitty recruitment consultant gets to play with it to "add value".

You can talk about football after the formal interview. But anyone who talks about football other than "did you see that ludicrous display last night?" with a put on manly man cockney accent will not be employed by me. Sorry. I fucking hate football and hate the types that constantly talk about it at work instead of doing the job.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #141 on: January 01, 2015, 08:04:16 am »

A CV with a section on Hobbies and Interests is a sure fire way of finding itself filed in the waste paper basket. I don't know of any professional that would reduce themselves to that shit. It is the hallmark of someone writing a CV from the advice of people working for the public sector Job Centre as professional CV mentors and tells a lot.

Quite simply, tailor the CV to the job. Then pray no shitty recruitment consultant gets to play with it to "add value".

You can talk about football after the formal interview. But anyone who talks about football other than "did you see that ludicrous display last night?" with a put on manly man cockney accent will not be employed by me. Sorry. I fucking hate football and hate the types that constantly talk about it at work instead of doing the job.

There is only one football where I live... Aussie Rules. It has evolved to become more a business than a sport. But I see your point.

Listening to boring endless diatribe about cricket or football in an office when people are trying to concentrate is not on. Fortunately, from my experience few electronics engineers are into sports or celebrity worship. We also have a relatively large Asian and ethnic European population working in electronics in Australia, so that helps keep the sports religious fanatics to an irrelevant minority in the workplace.

Another good thing is in Australia, we have no Neighbours fans :o. That crap was exported to the UK :-DD, along with Kylie Minogue  :palm:. You know what they say, guv'ner, one man's trash is another man's treasure :-+ .
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #142 on: January 02, 2015, 07:03:35 pm »
There is only one football where I live... Aussie Rules. It has evolved to become more a business than a sport. But I see your point.
I've seen some of it. It looks like a cross between rugby and footy, but with some ultra-violence thrown in for good measure.
Quote
Another good thing is in Australia, we have no Neighbours fans :o. That crap was exported to the UK :-DD, along with Kylie Minogue  :palm:. You know what they say, guv'ner, one man's trash is another man's treasure :-+ .
Neighbours. OMG. When I was a virgin, spotty, shy 18 year old Electronics Service Apprentice in '89, our decrepit pit of a bench lab area was entirely female free. They had their own office (with windows, sunlight and stuff like that!). Now being TV & VCR engineers we all had our own portable CRT TV's on the benches, for soak testing VCR's, etc. They would be on all day.

A girl from the office who I would sit next to on the bus into work and was quite friendly with asked if she could watch this programme "Neighbours" that was on the BBC at the time at my bench area for lunchtime, while I went out and got a kebab or chips for lunch. Yeah - no problem... a few days later her office mate would join in too. Then another of her office mates... Soon, my bench became the official designated Neighbours watching area for all the office girls, me totally surrounded by these cooing moos, while I am trying to eat my lunch and getting red faced, the only bloke surrounded by 10 females in that pit.  :-DD.

As for Kylie, she was awful when she was managed by that Pete Waterman bloke, but when she broke out alone, I think she's done quite well for herself. She seems to have got much better with age ;)
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #143 on: January 02, 2015, 07:47:02 pm »
Among others, I had the pleasure of Kylie's company in the Atlantic Bar off Regent St in London back in my drinking days about twenty years ago. No entourage, she just happened to walk in with a couple of mates. She was offered a beverage, as was de rigeur back in the day. Very pleasant girl she is too. Ah, those were the days. She didn't speak very highly of VK3DRB though.

I quite like the hobbies and interests on a CV, but only if they are interesting to the general populous.

Being able to play a musical instrument to a reasonable level, for example, tells me something about the individual, and it was likely I'd ask them a question about it. Their response in itself will tell quite a bit. I had a concert pianist work for me once, his attention to detail was like no other. I didn't actually know he was a concert pianist until after he'd been assigned to my team and we were chatting in the pub one day after work.

But no, I don't get passive things like following football or watching neighbours.

The point is, I wouldn't want a sanitised office or team, I'd want characters, just a bit of eccentricity in these days of mediocrity. But proven technical and communication skills come first.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 11:15:13 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline hamdi.tn

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #144 on: January 03, 2015, 02:20:46 am »
what do you think about someone who send me a cv and a letter zipped together in an email with just the word "good evening" in it .. and written wrong  :palm: it's a one word mail and still wrong  :palm:
 

Offline BobC

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #145 on: January 03, 2015, 02:37:08 am »
Relevant hobbies are important to list, especially if they describe job-required experience/skills not present in your work history.  An aware employer knows that serious hobbies are also serious work: Any hobby that keys into the job requirements indicates, to me, somebody who will have a much greater chance of enjoying their new job.

In other words, my dream job is to get paid to do one of my hobbies!  And I've been lucky enough to have that happen a few times.  Sometimes, the flow goes the other way: I've had jobs that introduced me to new areas that soon became hobbies.

As a definition:
Job = Something you get paid to do, and hopefully have fun doing.
Hobby = Something you pay to do because you always have fun doing it.

"Irrelevant but interesting" hobbies can (and probably should) be listed as a one-liner at the end of the resume.  It can lead to interesting conversations on a subject you know about, and can give the employer a window into your personality.  But don't use the word "Hobbies": I prefer the title "Other Interests".  Here's the line from my resume:

"Other Interests: Triathlon, paragliding, cooking, ukulele, singing."

If they ask, I can talk at length about each of them, complete with amusing (and self-deprecating) anecdotes.

I have other hobbies I don't list, mainly because they don't ever become conversation topics (such as my volunteer activities).  I also don't list any of my technical hobbies (blogs, a website, home automation, IoT, member of several open-source projects) because the associated skills are all covered by my employment history, and would thus be redundant.

Now, if I ever do a successful crowdfunded project, I would absolutely list that!  Employers love to see engineers who can do the "soup to nuts" aspects of product design, development, documentation, delivery, marketing, communications and all the rest.

I do list all the technical online courses I've taken under "Education", even if motivated by hobby interests.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #146 on: January 03, 2015, 07:02:19 am »
Relevant hobbies are important to list, especially if they describe job-required experience/skills not present in your work history.  An aware employer knows that serious hobbies are also serious work: Any hobby that keys into the job requirements indicates, to me, somebody who will have a much greater chance of enjoying their new job.

...

As a definition:
Job = Something you get paid to do, and hopefully have fun doing.
Hobby = Something you pay to do because you always have fun doing it.

 ...
I do list all the technical online courses I've taken under "Education", even if motivated by hobby interests.

Too true! One volunteer is worth ten conscripts as I have said before. I have found those who have a hobby in electronics on average far better value than someone who became an electronics engineer because of cultural reasons. I knew one bloke from another who hated electronics and wanted out. In Australia, he had the courage to train part time to be a social worker specialising in grief counselling. He loved his new career and did well in it after leaving the electronics industry, but his class oriented parent were upset that they could no longer boast their son is an engineer.

As for hobbies, I add a one liner in there: Morse code.
 

Online Simon

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #147 on: January 03, 2015, 09:04:49 am »
The person that got my old job got it just because he has a degree in something totally unrelated to the workplace yet his CV was an absolute disaster there was an error in the first three words where he had duplicated "the" and the overall CV was an utter mess as it was very difficult to see what his chronological history was has everything was out of order. But he got the job on the back of his degree.

The young lady who submitted a CV but did not have any qualifications submitted a very well written CV which showed very clearly her progress in working life and that she had bettered herself in each job she moved into.

Unfortunately yet another case of somebody getting a job just because they have a degree regardless of whether or not they are competent over degree is relevant.
 

Offline jpb

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #148 on: January 03, 2015, 10:11:28 am »
Unfortunately yet another case of somebody getting a job just because they have a degree regardless of whether or not they are competent over degree is relevant.
I don't think this syndrome is confined to qualifications, it applies equally to specific experience. Employers don't want to take a risk or at least want to avoid putting themselves in an awkward position if a new employee doesn't turn out well. If they turn down someone with a degree and employ someone without and they turn out not to be up to the job then higher management will consider them incompetent even if the other candidate was clearly not up to the job either.

Similarly they are reluctant to employ people who don't have proven experience in the particular bit of electronics that the job entails.

I'm in the position of possibly returning to electronics (I went from electronics to computer science and am looking in both areas), but almost all jobs are looking for experience of embedded systems which generally rules me out even though I have decades of experience in C have good (high frequency analogue) electronics experience and have done a course in verilog and also have 6502/ARM assembler experience. This doesn't have anything to do with degrees, as I have three of them (if you count a post graduate diploma as a degree, two if you don't). It might have something to do with age though.
 

Online Simon

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Re: eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell
« Reply #149 on: January 03, 2015, 10:22:06 am »
This case was rather different from what you suggest. Firstly I had been taken on in the same role and apparently been successful despite no qualifications. Qualifications this person had nothing to do with the field of industry I work in which is not electronics by the way. The 2nd person actually had much more relevant experience while not qualified and was clearly quite good as she had written out her CV in a very clear and orderly fashion which is also a skill required of the job of quality inspector as if you can't communicate the problem or solutions to your colleagues or suppliers or customers you have a problem. The person they took on instead showed very little ability to clearly communicate facts very well known to him and he had not even been able to reread his own CV and make basic corrections. His last job had been at the local job centre again totally alien to the line of industry we work in whereas the other candidate had worked in the industry all her life and had made steady progress to the point where she was a skilled engine fitter on performance engines in fact she was probably more skilled than we needed but the guy who had never worked in the field with a degree got the job despite his inability to write a basic coherent CV about himself.
 


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