eevBLAB #3 - Engineers Can't Spell

[jpb]

When I was doing my engineering degree back in the early eighties there was a nice bit of graffiti:

Yesterday I couldn't spell Engineer, now I are one!

But back on the topic, I'm currently job hunting and I spend hours tailoring the layout and content of my CV for each job. I'm sure the odd typo gets through but I think getting as near to perfection as possible is important simply because it is an indication of how much effort you're willing to put in to getting the job.

Errors indicate that the CV was rushed and the underlying implication is that the application isn't that important to the applicant.

One problem with spell checkers is that if you're too reliant on them the wrong word can slip through - e.g. your instead of you're (or even yore)!

[Richard Crowley]

Apparently we see Entropy everywhere.  While computers and spell-checkers would seem to make it easier for people to produce presentable communication, perhaps they have concurrently made people more lazy (or even basically ignorant) to check things for themselves. 

But simple spelling mistakes (the kind that any basic spell-checker would fix) seem unforgivable. It indicates that the author/candidate either doesn't care enough about the job to take a few extra seconds, or that they are too unskilled in the kind of basic communications required for the job.

[jpb]

But it seems that these people are very well capable of spelling correctly,
they just did not bother to proof read at all, before sending it.

Some time ago I did the conveyancing on the purchase of my house (my previous one). I was very annoyed to find that I had to spend a lot of time correcting very basic mistakes in legal documents produced by the seller's solicitors. They were supposed to be highly paid legal professionals yet were too lazy to even check for spelling and grammar errors, and I as a layman, ended up doing unpaid work for them for which the seller presumably was paying them!

[ornea]

I've certainly put resumes in the fail pile due to poor presentation, grammar, spelling and punctuation.

Sending documents in word format also bugs the hell out of me and loses points.  PDFs are pretty universal.

I used PDF's early on as I wanted the end user to have it formatted the way I intended.

However, later it concerned me as the company was using a online automated submission system that scanned the documents for key words and suspect they were unable to scan my resume.

[Dave Turner]

I have to agree with Mike (of electrics stuff fame). Poor grammar and spelling is indicative of a lack of attention to detail which is hardly what one wants in an engineer.

If one knows that one's grammar and spelling are lacking then even more time should be spent checking one's work. Furthermore don't rely on spell checkers; they can only tell whether the word is spelt correctly not whether it is means what you meant to say. Grammar checkers help but they are not perfect.

The whole point of resumes, business letters etc. is to clearly communicate something without the chance of being misunderstood, (unless you're a politician). Good spelling and grammar are important to help achieve this.

[hamdi.tn]

you turning to a capitalist with corporate evil mind for just one job nah kidding
I did receive many resume myself ... and i feel that most applicant are not making any effort when writing their CV
You will be surprise that most mistake i saw are candidate don't know the name of  the damn diploma they worked so hard to get , not to mention some don't know the name of their educational institute ...like someone who wrote " Essence " ( fuel ) instead of " licence "  ... when i saw that mistake .. well you will never get job with such CV.
I don't think you exaggerating it only show that this person is not giving enough attention for such an important paper neither importance to double check what he wrote ( to be fair it's hard to detect your own writing mistake).  i make terrible spelling mistake and it's only getting worst since i left university but i always check my mail or documentation before sending.
I even ask for more from ppl when i receive CV for internship or job , if i found just an " ugly " paper with some writing with " Time news roman font " not given enough attention to design a nice looking document , i throw it away .
I prefer ppl that take time to choose or make their own cv template, the most creative is the one i choose 

[jpb]

I never watched the series "The Office", but I liked the approach to CVs taken by the boss in that (which friends told me about).

He threw half the CVs in the bin without looking at them at all, as he said you'd be unlucky to have your CV thrown in the bin without being looked at -  and he didn't want to employ unlucky people!

[jucole]

Wow, that thumbs down ratio, one of my biggest ever.
The amount of people who don't seem to understand the point in this video is quite staggering 

I'm not surprised - the poor applicant is obviously a massive fan of yours and rather than focusing your video on the fundamental requirement of checking your CV you single him out by reference to his spelling mistake to make him feel even worse.

But at the end of the day if you send a CV with errors for a  job that requires good communication skills, it's liable to end up in the bin!

[Richard Crowley]

I never watched the series "The Office", but I liked the approach to CVs taken by the boss in that (which friends told me about).

He threw half the CVs in the bin without looking at them at all, as he said you'd be unlucky to have your CV thrown in the bin without being looked at -  and he didn't want to employ unlucky people!

And that is exactly the kind of stupidity promoted by mindless and ignorant "popular entertainment" that is reducing the populace to idiots.  I was never able to make it all the way through a single episode. It is just so mind-numbingly stupid.

[jpb]

I never watched the series "The Office", but I liked the approach to CVs taken by the boss in that (which friends told me about).

He threw half the CVs in the bin without looking at them at all, as he said you'd be unlucky to have your CV thrown in the bin without being looked at -  and he didn't want to employ unlucky people!

And that is exactly the kind of stupidity promoted by mindless and ignorant "popular entertainment" that is reducing the populace to idiots.  I was never able to make it all the way through a single episode. It is just so mind-numbingly stupid.

I won't attempt to defend "The Office" as I didn't like it enough to watch it, but I did like that particular example of deliberate obtuseness. I think it is probably a British thing - we like our humour very silly (like Monty Python) and ironically enough it is best done by highly educated people often from Cambridge or Oxford (e.g. mr Bean aka Rowen Atkinson has two engineering degrees, the second from Oxford)

[miguelvp]

The word doc vs pdf part is a bit beyond me, anyone can download open office or libre office.

It should be up to the employer to indicate the preferred format, if none was stipulated the most common of both for resumes has been word doc in my experience.

[idpromnut]

Good lord!  The number of people in the Youtube comments that don't get it is staggering. I've had to sort through/interview people before as well. Anyone that has done this will tell you that you as an employee are not given a ton of time to do this. One ends up taking reasonable shortcuts to increase the odds that you will get a person into an interview that is interesting for both you and and the candidate. This usually means trying to decipher from a few written pages (if you're lucky!) whether you are going to immediately flush the candidate (none of the required skills, etc etc) or if you should spend an hour talking with them to see what's what.

It goes without saying that a perfect resume does not mean anything in terms of the actual interview. But why would you present yourself as anything LESS than perfect on paper (without outright lying of course) when it is easy to do, requires almost zero effort to at a minimum spell check and proofread (and then ask someone else to proofread) your resume?

If I see spelling/grammatical errors, I have to assume as a reader that the author is either a) too lazy to use the tools available to them, b) does not consult others to help them check their work or, c) assumes they are infallible and don't need to check their work. None of those qualities are appealing to me or my employer. Especially when there are plenty of resumes that come in to choose from.

Just shocking.

[idpromnut]

The word doc vs pdf part is a bit beyond me, anyone can download open office or libre office.

It should be up to the employer to indicate the preferred format, if none was stipulated the most common of both for resumes has been word doc in my experience.

I would never give me resume in a format that can be edited. Perhaps it is paranoid, but I don't want some glitch or screw-up reflecting on the work I did to present myself. Headhunters are particularly hostile to PDF; they typically "work over" your resume to include things they think will get you an interview, etc: tell me what I should focus on, and I'll do the edits thank you.   

[Richard Crowley]

I think it is probably a British thing - we like our humour very silly (like Monty Python)

The US version of "The Office" is even more unremittingly boorish.  You are fortunate to not be exposed.

I liked Monty Python.  However, when I visited England several years ago I was caught in a faux pas.
We were staying at a bed and breakfast in a large home in South Croydon.
When we came down to breakfast, they had a telly set up in the corner showing some sort of chat show.
I was chuckling at some of the exchanges, and my hosts asked me what was so funny.
I said that I thought it was a Monty Python parody, but they told me it was a REAL show on a serious topic.   

[8086]

Wow, that thumbs down ratio, one of my biggest ever.
The amount of people who don't seem to understand the point in this video is quite staggering 

Don't fall into the trap of dismissing internet users like that. You really think all those 100+ people just don't understand your point?

I gave you thumbs down, not because I don't understand your point, but because I didn't like the "holier than thou" video about it. I realise you are probably just trying to educate on the importance of first impressions but your manner in the context of looking for an employee, and using an example from the real applicants just seems off to me.

But then I guess this new video series is designed to be controversial or make us argue a bit? 

[Richard Crowley]

I gave you thumbs down, not because I don't understand your point, but because I didn't like the "holier than thou" video about it.

Wow, I don't understand THAT at all. 
Have you never been in the position of owning, operating, or even working at a for-profit business?
Have you never been in the position of selecting, interviewing, or hiring employees?
If someone really doesn't understand Dave's style, they probably shouldn't apply for a job there.

[8086]

I gave you thumbs down, not because I don't understand your point, but because I didn't like the "holier than thou" video about it.

Wow, I don't understand THAT at all. 
Have you never been in the position of owning, operating, or even working at a for-profit business?
Have you never been in the position of selecting, interviewing, or hiring employees?
If someone really doesn't understand Dave's style, they probably shouldn't apply for a job there.

Whether you understand is really neither here nor there...

In answer to your patronising questions:

1. Yes, I work for a for profit business and I own and operate another for profit business.
2. Not employees, but plenty of contractors. I do pay attention to how they present themselves when I am selecting one to use.

Personally I've made mistakes although I have to admit my CV is actually flawless for the reasons Dave outlines in the video.

I am a business owner and when the day comes that I hire someone as an employee I am sure I will be looking for any reason to cut down the list of applicants too.

My point is that I think Dave made a mistake doing a 7+ minute video continually referring to one mistake in one CV he's received. Just my opinion on one of the millions of videos on youtube, you don't see me giving you the spanish inquisition treatment about your opinion, do you? The reaction I had to the video is entirely subjective, and I know Dave is probably not trying to appear the way he did, but that's how I interpreted it.

I should add, I never gave Dave a thumbs down before. This video just rubbed me up the wrong way for some reason. I doubt Dave cares.

[Richard Crowley]

My point is that I think Dave made a mistake doing a 7+ minute video continually referring to one mistake in one CV he's received. Just my opinion on one of the millions of videos on youtube, you don't see me giving you the spanish inquisition treatment about your opinion, do you? The reaction I had to the video is entirely subjective, and I know Dave is probably not trying to appear the way he did, but that's how I interpreted it.

Yes, now I understand your reaction. Thank you for the clarification.
But then I guess I have come to expect that kind of thing from Dave.
He goes off on all sorts of things that leave me shrugging and saying "so what"?
And he has a remarkable ability to go on about something for several minutes that would seem to be reducible to a couple of sentences.
But that appears to be part of the "entertainment value" of his "brand" doesn't it?

[Howardlong]

It's not about the spelling, it's about the accuracy & attention to detail, which are essential attributes in engineering. If someone can't be bothered to get someone to proofread a short document, what else will they not be bothered about?

Precisely. Like it or not, that document is the key to the door of your career. For something so simple as running a spell checker and having someone else proofread it for you, I am confused why there is such surprise and hostility about it.

Equally, regarding the interview itself, I wouldn't turn up to an interview late or dressed in dirty clothes for example, hell, if it were me I might even take a shower and brush my teeth a few days before too, it's common sense. No one wants to work with a smelly git.

This is the real world, it's not American Pie or Animal House, and like it or not I guarantee that if you don't want to "conform" you're really doing neither yourself nor your career any favours at all.

[SteveyG]

Dave, learn to say resume correctly!

[KD0RC]

I think Dave touched a nerve here!  While I am not an engineer, I do hire people and use the resume exactly as Dave suggests.  A perfect resume is no guarantee of a good fit or even of good core skills.  A horrible resume is usually a great indicator of someone who is not able to operate outside their direct job description.  If I am hiring for a low end position, my expectations go way down in terms of a well written resume.  When I am hiring someone for a professional position, I need to know that communications from them to other professional members of the enterprise will not be an embarassment, so I expect proper spelling and reasonably good grammar on their resume.

The resume is just there to weed out the obvious non-contenders for the position.  It is the interview that wins or loses the job.  A poor resume just reduces the chances of getting the interview in the first place, and that is Dave's point.  People in technical fields often feel that raw technical skills are all that matters.  They often have (or tolerate) poor communication skills, poor social skills and an attitude that being a good technician makes up for anything else.  As a hiring manager, I am interested in good skills coupled with a reasonable level of education and social abilities.  There is no perfect candidate, but they do need to fall somewhere into the window of acceptability on more than just technical merit.

Len

[joedz]

tisk tisk spelling is a growing epidemic. Why? I believe its because cell phone usage and social networks are the cause. The text option is just not suitable for proper writing skills or spelling skills. Users are not supporting good grammar habits by using text messages to communicate. Why? It take to long to text a proper sentence.

[Sterno]

A resume is a potentially life-changing document, asking for decent spelling/grammar in it is not unreasonable.  A good resume reflects the care and attention an applicant takes with their work.

My English skills are reasonably good for a non-native speaker but I still use spell checkers and have friends proofread important things like resumes.
If you know your writing skills are poor, use the tools available to help.

[Marco]

I think you missed the entire point of this, it's about a first impression, care, and attention to detail.
Most employers don't actually care if they spelled a word incorrectly, but it does potentially tell you something about the person.

Well potentially by the very fact this rant exists it might also be true that the predictive value of that criteria is heading to zero in which case using it says more about the competitiveness of the employer than vice versa (nothing inherently wrong about judging an applicant on irrelevant skills, which is why I said competitiveness, an employer who just grits his teeth and bears it might get better talent on average). We'd need some blind testing to be sure

[Jope]

College graduates should to be able to spell half decently, even more so in a CV? How dare you expect that from them!

But seriously, it's hilarious and scary at the same time that things that were considered common sense not so long ago seem outrageous
to so many people today. It's like going unshowered and smelly to a party and wondering why no one wants to talk to you.
"But I'm not a bad person if I smell!" No, you are just an idiot disconnected from reality.

No ragrets: