Author Topic: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!  (Read 19084 times)

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Online NiHaoMikeTopic starter

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eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« on: December 09, 2017, 05:57:14 am »
I have looked into Patreon many months back and did not like it for multiple reasons. The ones that stand out are insistence on monthly payments (high transaction fees for small donations, would be better if there was an option to do it in 6 month batches) and apparently it needs the Paypal account to have a linked credit card, which I don't like since I prefer to keep the two separate. (The Paypal account itself is supplied by cryptocurrency miners via an exchange.)

I ended up using Bitcoin and (direct) Paypal to support the creators I really like.
Cryptocurrency has taught me to love math and at the same time be baffled by it.

Cryptocurrency lesson 0: Altcoins and Bitcoin are not the same thing.
 

Offline thmjpr

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 08:14:07 am »
The ones that stand out are insistence on monthly payments (high transaction fees for small donations, would be better if there was an option to do it in 6 month batches)

For me 35c per month is not a big deal on ~$25 of donations (1.4%). If you have <$5 per month it does become significant. But I agree an option for longer term would be nice.

Scanlime sent out an email for liberapay, https://liberapay.com/scanlime Which from what I see, uses a single large deposit and then you can use that money to donate weekly or monthly.
Patreon could certainly have offered a similar solution, automatically "reload" your account with $20+ whenever it runs out. This could be completely transparent to the user. Of course the downside is you are paying up-front which some people don't like.

I think for now I will remove all my $1 donations and try to do bulk donations every 6 months or hope more people sign up for liberapay.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 08:39:33 am »
Ah, yeah, also this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vat-on-patreon-donation/
So, if I want to send 1 dollar a month, Patreon is adding 35 cent, tax is adding 21 cent. Though probably more, probably 0.21*(1+0.35) because, you know...
This high flat fee is just ridiculous. So more than 60% of the donations are 1 dollar. They are essentially jacking up their price from 5% to 35% for half of their customers. Way to go.

Dave, please mark a preferred donation method.
 

Offline Terry01

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2017, 08:55:00 am »
I am new to all this so am guessing you are talking about donations to something on the web (YouTube?).

The same thing happened to me a while back.
Someone chapped my door looking for donations to something or other,had all the proper identification badges and stuff.
Anyways I was going to donate a score £20) but "no".....has to be a "sign up today for a monthly donation from my bank account"!!
No way I said,it's the £20 I want to donate now and that's it......or nothing....I aint signing up to that....I'll donate what I can afford now and that's it!
The guy said "we can't accept cash,just  your bank details for a monthly donation".......oh so not my £20 just a thing for access to ALL my cash....aye ok Neeb....trot on. See ya!
The long and short is this charity that is so in need of my cash can't accept my 20 quid!
They ended up getting a score dangled in front of them then told to nash because they wanted my bank details.
Sick as hell waste of everyone's time if you ask me.....
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Offline Chipguy

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2017, 02:19:59 pm »
Hi !

After Dave posted  a picutre on Twitter, showing that Patreon takes a survey upon pledge deletion where you can actually tick a box "I am not satisfied with Patreon's services" and you can even leave a short comment I decided to do exactly what Dave did and deleted all my pledges.
Before that I wrote a little message to each creator eplainung why I did that and asked them to set up Paypal Donation or something else as an alternative methode.

So far Techmoan has already reacted and implemented a donate button on www.techmoan.com
Now I have my pledges for EEVBlog and Techmoan moved over to automated montly recurring Paypal donations.
I know that it is not as fancy and controllable as Patreon is but it has to do for now until Patreon come to their senses or creators find another better alternative.

Just to explain why:
A $1 donation costs in Germany:
($1 + $0.35 + $0.03)* 1.19 = $1.64
There is a 19% VAT rate in Germany for Patreon.
The creator gets about $0.95 minus whatever fees apply for the transfer Patreon -> Creator.
With a Paypal Plus account this would be $0.91 if I am not mistaken.
So only 55% of the paid money make  it to the creator, the rest is fees and VAT.  :rant:

So with Paypal only that would come down to the same on the creator's side (right?) but no additional fees and taxes on the patron's side.
The patron pledges $1 and pays $1.

That's what I am sticking with for now. Let's see how it goes.
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Online wraper

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2017, 02:46:26 pm »
Ah, yeah, also this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vat-on-patreon-donation/
So, if I want to send 1 dollar a month, Patreon is adding 35 cent, tax is adding 21 cent. Though probably more, probably 0.21*(1+0.35) because, you know...
This high flat fee is just ridiculous. So more than 60% of the donations are 1 dollar. They are essentially jacking up their price from 5% to 35% for half of their customers. Way to go.

Dave, please mark a preferred donation method.
Actually it's not that ridiculous at all. Previously those 35 cents were not reaching creator as well. Just look into paypal transaction fees, they have this fixed transaction fee +% of the transfer
So if people were donating $1 each month, they were just feeding paypal, Visa, Mastercard  :palm:. Now donators can see that donating small sums feeds money processors. I guess creators usually did not notice this as well because they see quiet large average processing fee (around 6.2% in Dave's video). And it was large because 1$ donations got more than 30% eaten by transaction fee.
Quote
There is a fee to send money as a personal payment using a debit or credit card. The fee in the U.S. is 2.9% plus $0.30 USD of the amount you send. For example, if you send $100.00 USD by credit card, the fee would be $3.20 USD ($2.90 + $0.30).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 02:52:47 pm by wraper »
 

Offline Towger

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 03:52:57 pm »
Basic fail.  Probably run by young ones with no real world experience.  If they wanted to change the system it should have been an option.  Same as PayPal, with all existing donations defaulting to the existing system.  Donate $1 and receiver pays the fees or donate $1 to the receiver and donate pays the fees.  In all cases, all fees and charges should be clearly visible.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 04:36:49 pm »
Ah, yeah, also this:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/vat-on-patreon-donation/
So, if I want to send 1 dollar a month, Patreon is adding 35 cent, tax is adding 21 cent. Though probably more, probably 0.21*(1+0.35) because, you know...
This high flat fee is just ridiculous. So more than 60% of the donations are 1 dollar. They are essentially jacking up their price from 5% to 35% for half of their customers. Way to go.

Dave, please mark a preferred donation method.
Actually it's not that ridiculous at all. Previously those 35 cents were not reaching creator as well. Just look into paypal transaction fees, they have this fixed transaction fee +% of the transfer
So if people were donating $1 each month, they were just feeding paypal, Visa, Mastercard  :palm:. Now donators can see that donating small sums feeds money processors. I guess creators usually did not notice this as well because they see quiet large average processing fee (around 6.2% in Dave's video). And it was large because 1$ donations got more than 30% eaten by transaction fee.
Quote
There is a fee to send money as a personal payment using a debit or credit card. The fee in the U.S. is 2.9% plus $0.30 USD of the amount you send. For example, if you send $100.00 USD by credit card, the fee would be $3.20 USD ($2.90 + $0.30).
Good point.
Last years, I was making yearly donation, around Christmas time. I guess I'll keep doing it this way.
IMHO, taking a huge cut from charity is just immoral.
 

Online HwAoRrDk

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2017, 05:06:56 pm »
Here's an interesting article I just read:

https://subfictional.com/my-theory-patreon-doesnt-want-to-be-a-money-services-business/

The author speculates that Patreon have made these changes to avoid being classified as a Money Services Business, where they would be subject to a lot of additional laws and regulations. They would be classified as such because until now they were storing and redistributing funds.
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2017, 05:08:30 pm »
Scanlime sent out an email for liberapay, https://liberapay.com/scanlime Which from what I see, uses a single large deposit and then you can use that money to donate weekly or monthly.
Patreon could certainly have offered a similar solution, automatically "reload" your account with $20+ whenever it runs out. This could be completely transparent to the user. Of course the downside is you are paying up-front which some people don't like.

That certainly works for Liberapay, who from a quick look around their website seem to be unusually well organized when it comes to legal compliance and similar issues - I smell that rare thing, a competent, humanistic lawyer.

It might be a problem in some jurisdictions; taking a deposit is often one of the crucial defining characteristics of a bank (you may have seen the phrase licensed deposit taker) and incurs with it all the regulatory issues associated with running a fully fledged bank. So in some places that may not be an option.
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2017, 05:15:09 pm »
Good point.
Last years, I was making yearly donation, around Christmas time. I guess I'll keep doing it this way.
IMHO, taking a huge cut from charity is just immoral.

The problem with that is that is makes the income stream for the recipient very 'lumpy' and unpredictable. Imagine how you would plan your finances if you knew that 50% or so of your income was coming as (effectively) an annual lump sum, but you didn't know quite how much or exactly when.

That is perhaps tolerable for a large charity with plenty of experience and understanding bankers, less so for someone like Dave.
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Offline NickS

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2017, 07:00:58 pm »
One thing I'm missing is the fee is 2.9% + 35c.

The 35c is normal. It makes it rubbish for $1 pledges but hey that's the payment industry for you.
They don't want or care about microtransactions.

But 2.9% is very high as Stripe fees go!
Our company uses Stripe, nowhere near the volume Patreon must be at and we just asked them nicely and our rate is way less than that (under half).

They do have to do Paypal as well, but why slug the credit card people with Paypal fees?
And if their credit card fee is significantly lower then who is getting all the profit?
 

Offline thmjpr

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2017, 09:40:11 pm »
Actually it's not that ridiculous at all. Previously those 35 cents were not reaching creator as well. Just look into paypal transaction fees, they have this fixed transaction fee +% of the transfer
So if people were donating $1 each month, they were just feeding paypal, Visa, Mastercard  :palm:. Now donators can see that donating small sums feeds money processors. I guess creators usually did not notice this as well because they see quiet large average processing fee (around 6.2% in Dave's video). And it was large because 1$ donations got more than 30% eaten by transaction fee.

The whole point of patreon was to combine payments so fees would not eat away at donations.
If I donate to 10 people per month then my CC/paypal gets charged once, the 35c fee once, so it is spread across all of my donations (35c/10 = 3.5c for example, or 3.5%).

If they wanted people to see actual fees, they could have added a single 35c/month charge, regardless of the number of people you donate to.
If you had a single $1/month donation, you'd see its a significant portion. If you had $50/month you wouldn't notice it.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2017, 11:53:56 pm »
I was curious about the 'bottom line' in all this.  For patrons and the people they support, the numbers go up.  Patrons pay more and recipients get more - right across the board.

However, with a change in the fee structure something is going to be different - and I believe it is the fee revenue to Patreon.

From the sums I've done, it seems that - under the new structure - Patreon will collect a greater percentage on fees from donations that are up to $3.60 (the nominal pledge amount).  Over that, their percentage is less than the old scheme.  The lower the pledge amount, the higher the percentage.  The $1 pledge used to score them around 11% which was taken off the pledge.  Now that's almost 38% and is added onto the pledge (or about 27.5% of the forced higher amount).  At $3.60, it's about 12.5% for either.  This assumes that Patreon will have the exact same cost of processing transactions after, as before - which I have no indications to the contrary.

While amounts over $3.60 are will generate a smaller revenue in percentage terms, what is important is the actual dollar amount.  Set this against the larger percentage, but of smaller amounts, for pledges under $3.60 and you must wonder whether Patreon have created a net gain in fee income or not.


There are a few ways to play with the numbers here - and I've just followed one track.  Whether it's the best or not....
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2017, 11:57:15 pm »
And look, Patreon's average payment for December 2017 was $3.43 - source: https://graphtreon.com/patreon-stats.
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2017, 12:11:29 am »
The long and short is this charity that is so in need of my cash can't accept my 20 quid!
They ended up getting a score dangled in front of them then told to nash because they wanted my bank details.
Sick as hell waste of everyone's time if you ask me.....
They can't because the Chuggers (Charity Muggers) are employed by contractors on commission from all those MBA CEO's of big charities that have also aligned their pay with corporate pay, golden handshakes, pensions, etc.

If you do sign up with a Chugger then at the very least your first year of payments goes directly to the doorstop "salesman" and his boss. The direct debits are finally released to the headline charity after 12 months or more.
 

Offline rs20

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 02:34:20 am »
Actually it's not that ridiculous at all. Previously those 35 cents were not reaching creator as well. Just look into paypal transaction fees, they have this fixed transaction fee +% of the transfer

Everyone is missing the point here -- the real change that Patreon are making is changing from a monthly batching of charges to charging patrons each little donation as a separate event. This means that a huge amount more money is wasted on the fixed transaction fees (the ones that you mentioned), and rather than just continuing to charge a single lump sum on a monthly basis; they are instead going ahead with that stupid decision and confusing the issue by transferring the cost from Creator to Patron at the same time.

In particular, it is incorrect to assert that "previously those 35 cents were not reaching the creator" -- a large number of patrons donate a small amount to many creators; with this change, the fixed fee is applied multiple times for each creator per month, instead of the one lump sum per month. Patreon even openly admit this, quoting from their blog post: "That’s a lot of fees for creators to pay. We had three options: Have creators deal with a huge increase in fees...."

(Shameless self-promotion:)

 
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Offline Corporate666

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2017, 04:48:02 am »

Everyone is missing the point here -- the real change that Patreon are making is changing from a monthly batching of charges to charging patrons each little donation as a separate event. This means that a huge amount more money is wasted on the fixed transaction fees (the ones that you mentioned), and rather than just continuing to charge a single lump sum on a monthly basis; they are instead going ahead with that stupid decision and confusing the issue by transferring the cost from Creator to Patron at the same time.



Yes, exactly this - and EXCELLENT video!

I am surprised nobody noticed Patreon's sleight of hand here.... they are outright lying in their charts about how much money goes to the creators, they ignore the cost increase to the only people who are actually paying anything - the patrons!  Shame on them.

As for what prompted this, I would guess it could have been a few things..

-As all companies do, they may have just been looking at their books wondering how they can make more money and thought "hey, we can shift those transaction fees to the payers". 

-If you watch Dave's video, he mentions something like 800 people who donate $1.  Presumably, many or perhaps most of them may donate to multiple creators and those payments would be batched, but if you look at the percentage that Patreon takes, it's certainly far less than 35% or so, which is what it would be if all those $1 pledges were processed individually.  So there are ratios in there regarding the number of people pledging multiple creators, the average pledge amount, whether they are paying monthly or per-video and numerous other factors.  It could be that things are trending such that Patreon is noticing an increase in fees and a reduction in profit due to this trend.  Shifting the processing fees to the patrons eliminates all of the aggregation of data and batching of payments necessary to realize efficiencies of processing payments they need to realize a profit.  It also insulates them from losses due to shifting trends in the way patrons choose to support creators.

-It could be that as Patreon has grown, the credit card companies have chosen to take a bite out of them.  Patreon isn't a tiny fish, but they are a microscopically irrelevant fish compared to the transaction volume of Visa/MC/Amex/Discover/etc.  I can see them doing enough volume to pop up on the radars of the processing companies and come under closer scrutiny, and either be deemed ripe for additional fleecing, or possibly be deemed to be a risk due to the service they are selling.  Perhaps when they were smaller, they were categorized somehow with their processors but as they have grown, their payment processors want to adjust their rates.  Whatever the reason, if their rates change even a little (a few cents more per transaction), that can radically change the business model under Patreon's old system.

-And it could be that they have been seeing a fair amount of fraud.  Who knows - but there is no tangible good exchanged, so perhaps there is some way Patreon has been abused for money laundering or trading in illicit goods and this has caused the hammer to come down and required additional financial scrutiny.

Whatever it is, Patreon isn't telling and I wouldn't expect them to.  I am disappointed that they were so disingenuous in their chart as pointed out in the video linked above.  It makes me want to cancel my pledges, but I've supported Dave for a couple of years or more now, and I don't want the creators to the ones to suffer.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2017, 05:42:04 am »
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2017, 05:58:06 am »
I'm not a Patreon supporter and never had any intentions to be, can I not just arrange to pay anyone or do a funds transfer directly to someone on a scheduled basis via my online linked bank accounts ?. Is the Patreon thing just so lazy people can keep tabs and graphs on who paid, how much and when, perhaps and more than likely I am missing something in the transaction. Surely a donation recipient could simply set up a dedicated bank account to keep tabs on the total received for tax or other purposes and from whence it came.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 10:16:33 pm by Muttley Snickers »
 

Offline rs20

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2017, 06:08:56 am »


Nicely produced video, but he is just perpetuating the red herring of "should the creator or the patron pay" when the only one paying money here is the patron so it's always been the patrons paying, and he speculates as to whether the fixed fee is applied once per month when the answer is clearly precisely given as "no, it's applied for every individual pledge you make" as explained in Patreon's updated blog post, and again speculates as to the impact of the change on the percentage loss from patron to creator when that same blog post clearly says "That’s a lot of fees for creators to pay. We had three options: Have creators deal with a huge increase in fees...."

I'm flabbergasted that everyone's being fooled by the dummy that Patreon is playing here. They clearly state that they are making each donation a separate credit card transaction, therefore incurring way more fees. Why are we allowing ourselves to be distracted by the "who's paying for it" red herring?

I'm not a Patreon supporter and never had any intentions to be, can I not just arrange to pay anyone or do a funds transfer directly to someone on a scheduled basis via my online linked bank accounts ?. Is the Patreon thing just so lazy people can keep tabs and graphs on who paid, how much and when, perhaps and more than likely I am missing something in the transaction. Surely a donation recipient could simply set up a dedicated bank account to keep tabs on the total received for tax or other purposes and from whence it came.

You're forgetting international transfer, and the fees that go along with that, and the rewards that Patrons get.

Surely the barrier to entry for a subscription payment service is lower than for most other services on the Internet. As long as the creator you want to support has multiple options then fee hikes must be limited to below the level of inertia to switch.

Is there no Patreon alternative?

Again, the benefit here is having all your creators supported on a single platform. There's a significant hurdle to getting a Creator to fill out all the tax forms etc associated with sending money about the place, and a Patreon alternative that had, for example, only EEVBlog on it would be much less attractive because that'd be more credit card transactions and more fixed fees being accrued if I had to support via several different platforms.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2017, 06:15:30 am »
This isn't totally clear to me, but is Patreon actually getting more money per whatever metric you use?
 

Offline rs20

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2017, 06:23:07 am »
This isn't totally clear to me, but is Patreon actually getting more money per whatever metric you use?

It depends on whether the Patrons adjust their pledge (which they can't do if they're already at the minimum of $1.00, in which case they might quit entirely) and what proportion of the fee money goes to Patreon vs Credit Card Processing Companies. But franky, I don't care whether Credit Card Processing Companies or Patreon are winning here; what's perfectly clear is that the percentage of the Patron's money that makes it to the Creator's wallet is getting worse, so the Creator + Patron team is definitely losing overall.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2017, 06:49:59 am »
Can anyone confirm what they are charged by their credit card company, if they only make a small $1~3 donation a month and their card's account is not in USD?
I think you will find the exchange rate will be far worse than normal, to cover VISA/Mastercard minimum cost of doing business.
 

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Re: eevBLAB #42 - Patreon FAIL!
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2017, 07:02:23 am »
Good point.
Last years, I was making yearly donation, around Christmas time. I guess I'll keep doing it this way.
IMHO, taking a huge cut from charity is just immoral.

The problem with that is that is makes the income stream for the recipient very 'lumpy' and unpredictable. Imagine how you would plan your finances if you knew that 50% or so of your income was coming as (effectively) an annual lump sum, but you didn't know quite how much or exactly when.

That is perhaps tolerable for a large charity with plenty of experience and understanding bankers, less so for someone like Dave.
You have the choice of receiving $60 now, then $60 again in 6 months, etc. or $10 now, then another $10 next month, etc. I would pick the $60 every 6 months option since you can always throw it into savings and then restrict to making only $10 available to use every month (plus a tiny amount of interest). That's especially true if the income source could vanish any time. With the $60 every 6 months option, you'll more or less know ahead of time that the entire batch of 6 months has been paid. With the $10/month option, every month you'll wonder if it will still be there.
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