Author Topic: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering  (Read 55329 times)

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Offline Ampera

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #75 on: September 05, 2017, 12:53:14 pm »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #76 on: September 05, 2017, 01:14:46 pm »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.

You shouldn't be so casual about "settling" for being a doctor or lawyer.

When I studied at Uni I was informed that EE was the third most challenging course.  The next up was Law and the top was Medicine.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #77 on: September 05, 2017, 01:16:34 pm »
Mansplained, by a white, male.   :palm:

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're joking!

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

Human nature, i.e. instinct cannot be changed, even if many people believe it would be good for society if it could be.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #78 on: September 05, 2017, 01:23:10 pm »
I'd imagine that lawyers tend to make obscene amounts of money. If I was just concerned about salary I would not really be going into engineering. I'd probably become a doctor or a lawyer of some sort. If I really want to hedge my bets in life and get rich, I'd look into business, trade, and stock brokerage.

You shouldn't be so casual about "settling" for being a doctor or lawyer.

When I studied at Uni I was informed that EE was the third most challenging course.  The next up was Law and the top was Medicine.

I know exactly how difficult it is, and that's why they get paid so much. I'm just saying that I know I could do it. I've been incredibly successful in my schooling so far.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #79 on: September 05, 2017, 01:30:45 pm »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?
Make no mistake, engineering degrees that go down this path will have a very bleak future.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 01:38:47 pm by EEVblog »
 
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Offline Ampera

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #80 on: September 05, 2017, 01:36:45 pm »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?

I agree and disagree. There are some bullshit classes that they make you take (Like history. We've already been lectured on the same boring crap in the mandatory schooling, why do we gotta learn more about the same thing?) however there are examples like writing and different sciences that apply to the field of electronics engineering. It's those topics that will actually come in handy, and should be taught.

It's also the matter that they either have to meet a certain credit quota for students, and that they want to sell more classes, (Even not for profit schools still need to make money to keep the lights on and the doors open.)

There are things in the US like CLEP, which are tests you can take to immediately qualify for college credit without taking the class needed. It's basically like taking the final of a class without taking any of the lessons, and if you pass you get credit, and don't need to do any of that. I plan to take college composition (because I hate doing it) and history (something that I don't mind doing in general, but I don't really want to be forced into anyways).

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #81 on: September 05, 2017, 01:41:32 pm »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.

There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?

I agree and disagree. There are some bullshit classes that they make you take (Like history. We've already been lectured on the same boring crap in the mandatory schooling, why do we gotta learn more about the same thing?) however there are examples like writing and different sciences that apply to the field of electronics engineering. It's those topics that will actually come in handy, and should be taught.

Sure, but that's not the example here in this thread.
The alarming example at Purdue is:
Quote
"The recently appointed dean of Purdue’s school, Dr. Donna Riley, has an ambitious agenda.

In her words (italics mine): “I seek to revise engineering curricula to be relevant to a fuller range of student experiences and career destinations, integrating concerns related to public policy, professional ethics, and social responsibility; de-centering Western civilization; and uncovering contributions of women and other underrepresented groups…. We examine how technology influences and is influenced by globalization, capitalism, and colonialism…. Gender is a key…[theme]…[throughout] the course…. We…[examine]… racist and colonialist projects in science….”
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #82 on: September 05, 2017, 01:51:31 pm »
Me think you doth protest too much , Dave. Surely a quick semester course in comparative religion would improve your skills. Somewhat. At least a bit. Maybe.

 

Offline tautech

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #83 on: September 05, 2017, 01:53:01 pm »
Me think you doth protest too much , Dave. Surely a quick semester course in comparative religion would improve your skills. Somewhat. At least a bit. Maybe.
:-DD
Or some feline studies.  ;D
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Offline Howardlong

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #84 on: September 05, 2017, 01:54:16 pm »
As a minor aside to add some levity to the discussion, if you key in to Google "internalized oppression", a phrase bandied about these days in connection with sexism, misogyny, racism etc, Google currently shows a picture of Youtuber Ethan Klein. Nice bit of Google AI at work there.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 01:56:06 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #85 on: September 05, 2017, 02:22:19 pm »
No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

As someone else mentioned before, if you are interested in this stuff then go watch Jordon Petersons videos and lectures on the subject, they are fascinating, he's one of the world's leading researchers in this area. And yes, on average, innate gender differences play a huge role, if not the dominate role in this case, there is a ton of research on the topic.
But that's not the reason a lot of people want to hear.
However, be careful, Peterson has become somewhat of a poster child for this topic, and just the act of posting one of his university lectures can get you branded a misogynist for life  ::)
 

Offline sokoloff

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #86 on: September 05, 2017, 02:29:56 pm »
To be clear: I believe that university education should be multi-dimensional. Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.
There wasn't enough time in the 12 years of compulsory full time study previously?  :-//
The problem isn't the 12 years, it's that the brain isn't/wasn't fully/sufficiently developed then. My 6 year old just went off to 1st grade. How much economics and history is he going to productively learn in the next 3 years?

How much contextualizing of justice topics can a hormones-raging, not-working, allowance-receiving 15 year-old do?
If someone pays to go to university of their own free will to specialise in a field of study, why on earth should they be forced to learn all that stuff?
Make no mistake, engineering degrees that go down this path will have a very bleak future.
I will be sad to see the sharp devaluation of my MIT degree then.
 

Online Marco

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #87 on: September 05, 2017, 02:49:13 pm »
All that money wasted on the university lunch plan when beans, rice, and cheese would be a perfectly sustaining source of calories.
They should give the dorms better kitchens and induce the students to set up dining groups.

Quote
Of course an engineering school should rigorously teach engineering, but writing, economics, history, and the social aspects of college should all be an integral and essential part of higher education, IMO.
You don't have the time to get much deeper into all those than high school. Just let the student pick between some humanities courses related to engineering (ethics of engineering, philosophy of science etc) or humanities undergrad courses.

Don't give them mandatory social justice courses though.

How much contextualizing of justice topics can a hormones-raging, not-working, allowance-receiving 15 year-old do?
How much contextualizing of propaganda can a 20 year old student do?
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 02:53:06 pm by Marco »
 

Online tszaboo

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #88 on: September 05, 2017, 03:28:22 pm »
OK, so we had topics about that "science is racist", now we have topics about "engineering is sexist". Great. Did anyone mention James Damore already? He said:

-Maybe Google should hire people based on their knowledge and skill, not race or sex. You know, because that is racist and sexist.
-You are racist and sexist and fired. - said google.

So yeah. It is easy to make conversation about this. There is one group, which comes up with evidence supporting the claims, and another group, who said that "it should be this way and if you disagree, then I will publicly humiliate you and call you a Nazi." Education is a free market. Everyone has a choice. I never hear anyone crying that they wanted to be an engineer, but they couldn't* because they are born some way. So what should we do. Make people choose something they dont want to do?

*Ah, that is actually untrue. There is something that can be in the way (for some 50% in my uni. class), and was in the way for a lot of people. They couldn't finish university, because their grades were bad.
 
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Offline vodka

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #89 on: September 05, 2017, 03:36:28 pm »
I'm going to be awful misogynist , male chauvinist and incorrect politically.

1.The medecine, biology , chemist, nursering ,etc all have some on common . The mayor part of the matter have to MEMORIZE. On resume ,the girls and women  tend to memorize(like parrot) when they are learning.

2.The girls and women tend to be very obedient and they don't tend to dispute the stuffs. They will tend to be lambs.

3. The girls and women tend to lose the head with the babies and low-age kids and when they can't supply these wishes, they tend to work on place  where there are children like kindergardens, schools and pedriatics.

All these afirmations have been recompiled of my own experiences with  classroom mates (both sex ).   



 

Offline alank2

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #90 on: September 05, 2017, 04:05:32 pm »
It doesn't have to be a good girl bad guy situation.  It can be a good guy good girl situation.  There are things women can do that men cannot.  There are things men can do that women cannot.  Both can do well, especially when leveraging these differences together.  The truth is that with the current agenda (men and women are same) that not men nor women will be special, unique, appreciated, etc. for what each can bring.  The entire idea is foolishness and it will only bring trouble and division to everything it touches...
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #91 on: September 05, 2017, 04:58:33 pm »
There is a brilliant book called: Why Men Don't Listen and Women Can't Read Maps (Allan Pease, 2001); with some luck it can be found online!

In a few words, male and female mammals (really, have we ever stopped being mammals?) have a very different brain wiring; the book is about our archetypical (the deep-down instinctive) differences.


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Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #92 on: September 05, 2017, 04:59:32 pm »
Can you spot any differences in the picture below?
It's subtle; you might have to look closely.

Both these magazines are driven by market forces and are doing what sells.  While they are strongly reinforcing gender stereotypes, the market has already been formed.  In my family I have noticed these trends in children barely able to walk and talk.  In spite of strong encouragement by parents and grandparents to be interested in technical topics and careers.  I can't tell you whether this is the result of inherent characteristics, unconscious training by family members or societal influences but it is very real.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #93 on: September 05, 2017, 05:09:33 pm »
I'm going to be awful misogynist , male chauvinist and incorrect politically.

1.The medecine, biology , chemist, nursering ,etc all have some on common . The mayor part of the matter have to MEMORIZE. On resume ,the girls and women  tend to memorize(like parrot) when they are learning.

2.The girls and women tend to be very obedient and they don't tend to dispute the stuffs. They will tend to be lambs.

3. The girls and women tend to lose the head with the babies and low-age kids and when they can't supply these wishes, they tend to work on place  where there are children like kindergardens, schools and pedriatics.

All these afirmations have been recompiled of my own experiences with  classroom mates (both sex ).
I'll bite.

1) You've obviously not studied medicine, biology and chemistry. They rely on a deep level of understanding, not just memory.

2) Probably true to some extent. Women do tent to be more submissive, than men and this is not a bad thing, just a difference.

3) I wouldn't agree with that. Men tend to loose their temper with the children more often, than women and are more likely to resort to corporal punishment. Women are generally more empathetic, than men, which makes them better suited to caring for younger children.

No.  Wouldn't one think to ask women *why* they choose nursing over engineering and base one's conclusions at least partly upon a response from the demographic?  Wouldn't *that* be smart?
Could it not be due to innate differences between the male and female genders?

Perhaps most women will select nurturing role, such as nursing, over engineering, because that's what interests them most?

If so, then why? Some may call me sexist for saying this, but don't women generally have a more nurturing role in society? Irrespective of what any government does, females will always have a greater role in childcare than males. They're designed to carry the baby for 9 months, plus nurse it for another year. It's hardly surprising they tend to select a nurturing role, over a technical one!

As someone else mentioned before, if you are interested in this stuff then go watch Jordon Petersons videos and lectures on the subject, they are fascinating, he's one of the world's leading researchers in this area. And yes, on average, innate gender differences play a huge role, if not the dominate role in this case, there is a ton of research on the topic.
But that's not the reason a lot of people want to hear.
However, be careful, Peterson has become somewhat of a poster child for this topic, and just the act of posting one of his university lectures can get you branded a misogynist for life  ::)
I agree.

Various counterarguments to what I've said rely on social pressure and that things have changed since the stone age, but the trend is similar across cultures and basic human psychology hasn't changed since the stone age. Another problem some people will have with my comment is that it's a generalisation and shouldn't be used as an excuse for sexism, which I happen to agree with. Generally women may be less interested in engineering, but that doesn't mean they should be discouraged from a career in engineering or discriminated against, if they are interested in it.

I do think some feminists have a reason to be unhappy, with the status quo. I blame capitalism, rather than socialism. The problem is: a) society seems to value money over everything else and b) nurturing roles are typically paid less than technical ones. Perhaps both need addressing? Society needs to be less materialistic and pay nurturing roles more.

Is there sexism in society? Yes. There is a problem with unequal pay. To some extent, this may be unavoidable, as more women will take career brakes, to raise a family, than men will but even when this is taken into account, the gap persists. Look at the BBC's top paid list, as an example. They're mostly men, who get paid for doing exactly the same as their female co-stars.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-40653383
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 05:11:41 pm by Hero999 »
 

Offline alank2

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #94 on: September 05, 2017, 05:33:51 pm »
The so called "equal pay" issue isn't specifically a male/female issue.  There are many men who make more than other men because they are simply stronger, better, more capable, or simply a better negotiator.  Men are not paid the same for the same job!  They don't even perform the same from man to man.  Yet we hear about how it is a male/female issue.  It is not.  It is the way capitalism works.  Dare I say that capitalism doesn't care what sex you are - those in the most need will be paid the most.  Those who have the most to offer a company will be the best paid.  Everything else is just whining.  Honestly, I think equal pay is just some sort of social back door to socialism or communism.

Shouldn't a harder more specialized job like a technical one be paid more than a nurturing role that might be challenging, but more people can do it effectively?  There is that capitalism again.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #95 on: September 05, 2017, 05:52:29 pm »
The so called "equal pay" issue isn't specifically a male/female issue.  There are many men who make more than other men because they are simply stronger, better, more capable, or simply a better negotiator.  Men are not paid the same for the same job!  They don't even perform the same from man to man.  Yet we hear about how it is a male/female issue.  It is not.  It is the way capitalism works.  Dare I say that capitalism doesn't care what sex you are - those in the most need will be paid the most.  Those who have the most to offer a company will be the best paid.  Everything else is just whining.  Honestly, I think equal pay is just some sort of social back door to socialism or communism.

Shouldn't a harder more specialized job like a technical one be paid more than a nurturing role that might be challenging, but more people can do it effectively?  There is that capitalism again.
Did you check out the BBC's top paid list?

I disagree with the BBC's decision to pay Chris Evans more than his peers. He doesn't contribute more to ratings than the other stars, not that should be important to a public service broadcaster.

I can see your point about negotiation, which may be true to some extent.
 

Offline TheWelly888

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #96 on: September 05, 2017, 06:13:29 pm »
I was a schoolboy during the 1980s and I had a load of SJW-like crap forced down my throat by a few dogmatic teachers and some fellow pupils as well! All that put me off pursuing a career where politics rather than true objectivity reign which was why I choose engineering for university. I did notice a number of students were noisily sounding off about far-left wing stuff but they were just a noisy minority of the student body - everyone else were just down-to-earth people (both students and staff) and I had a good time at university.
You can do anything with the right attitude and a hammer.
 

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #97 on: September 05, 2017, 06:19:58 pm »
This will be an interesting thread to read. Let me bookmark it before it gets locked...  :popcorn:
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Offline vodka

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #98 on: September 05, 2017, 06:24:30 pm »
I'm going to be awful misogynist , male chauvinist and incorrect politically.

1.The medecine, biology , chemist, nursering ,etc all have some on common . The mayor part of the matter have to MEMORIZE. On resume ,the girls and women  tend to memorize(like parrot) when they are learning.

2.The girls and women tend to be very obedient and they don't tend to dispute the stuffs. They will tend to be lambs.

3. The girls and women tend to lose the head with the babies and low-age kids and when they can't supply these wishes, they tend to work on place  where there are children like kindergardens, schools and pedriatics.

All these afirmations have been recompiled of my own experiences with  classroom mates (both sex ).
I'll bite.

1) You've obviously not studied medicine, biology and chemistry. They rely on a deep level of understanding, not just memory.

2) Probably true to some extent. Women do tent to be more submissive, than men and this is not a bad thing, just a difference.

3) I wouldn't agree with that. Men tend to loose their temper with the children more often, than women and are more likely to resort to corporal punishment. Women are generally more empathetic, than men, which makes them better suited to caring for younger children.

I can talk more of the medicine because i have a various familiar and  90%  is memorize , the math almost dissappeared. The last time that i found with a parrot(female anesthesiologist doctor) ,practically it was a interrogation for knowing because  i  should take a gastric protector. Finally, i went out without she explained me the reason. Today i follow to think that she didn't  known it  to explain .

The temper isn't the  main reason ,you sight fine on the face of the women when they engage contact with  low-age kids  compared with aging kids(+10)  , they show more enthusiasm and  smile, and the women without sons is greater.


   

 

Online Marco

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Re: Prof: Social Justice Warriors Destroying Engineering
« Reply #99 on: September 05, 2017, 06:46:35 pm »
account, the gap persists. Look at the BBC's top paid list, as an example. They're mostly men, who get paid for doing exactly the same as their female co-stars.
Their female co-stars aren't being men ... if the audience prefers men their market rates will be higher.

No idea if that is true for presenters, but it is almost certainly true for movie stars (well, except porn ;))
« Last Edit: September 05, 2017, 06:48:40 pm by Marco »
 


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