Author Topic: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope  (Read 2053337 times)

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Offline pa3bca

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #525 on: October 19, 2014, 07:56:45 pm »
The amount of leakage is continuous with the input frequency.  At some frequency it will be low enough not to be seen visually but it will still be present which an FFT will show.  At a lower frequency yet it will become indistinguishable from noise.  Pick the right higher frequency and it will be +/- 2 pixels.  Pick a higher one yet and it will be +/- 3 pixels. 
Yes, the closer the frequency gets to Fnyquist the larger the mirror becomes. (as leakage increases)
And it looks like 100 MHz (at 250 MSa/s) is just at the limit, any higher and it becomes visible. This is in accordance with the Fs/2.5 that Marmad has mentioned as a an absolute maximum that will work in practice.

Quote
If the filter was long enough, then the 130 MHz image would have been removed.  The filter however is shorter than this because of both performance reasons and because the filter length subtracts from the usable record length at the ends where a full set of samples is not available to calculate it.
Hm I think I can see how with (much) longer sampling you might get rid of the mirror (leaked) frequency, as the sampling points "move" over the fundamental. but, but... wouldn't that be ETS?? sounds like cheating?
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #526 on: October 19, 2014, 08:08:11 pm »
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?
 

Offline pa3bca

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #527 on: October 19, 2014, 09:04:55 pm »
I want to come back to my question: if none of the signals in the electronic design, either the source, the intermediate signals in the signal path or the output signal has a frequency above the limit, then the higher frequencies can only come from interference, noise or higher harmonics.

Interference: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Noise: Can this really go up to 100 MHz with a noticeable impact? Don't believe so.

Higher harmonics: Let's say we have a 100 MHz square wave. With a square wave at 100 MHz, the fundamental frequency is at 100 MHz, the 3rd harmonic is at 300 MHz, the 5th harmonic is at 500 Mhz. Doesn't the low-pass filter cut-out frequencies above 300 MHz? I believe it does!
If not, it is a design failure I would say, if a 100 MHz scope does not even handle a 100 MHz square wave (DS1104Z with 100 MHz BW, 250 MS/s per channel).
You really don't have a clue, do you? Or are you deliberately trolling this forum?

And let's put it to the test.
Your perfect square wave (where can you buy these btw?) has a third harmonic with 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental.
So.
First a measurement with 0dBm out of the generator to the scope (250 MSa/s). 100 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
Then a 300 MHz 0 dBm to the scope (to check the attenuation at 300 MHz):       300 MHz 0 dBm png attachment.
You see that:
- due to aliasing the scope "sees" a 50 MHz signal
- this signal is down only 20 log (237/120) = 5.9 dB
The 3rd harmonic of a perfect square is 1/3 of the amplitude of the fundamental so the actual amplitude that the scope will show is 120/3 = 40 mV.
So the scope will show a waveform consisting of a 237 mV 100 MHz signal + a 40 mV 50 MHz signal.

To show you how that looks I added 237 mV 10 MHz and a 40 mV 5 MHz signal together (I can only generate up to 30 MHz with my siggen), and look what the waveform is:

There is your perfect square wave @ 100 MHz....
Higher harmonics will also show, but probably not significant:
- the 5th harmonic is at 500 MHz.. being 2xFs the amplitude here is zero (checked it).
- 7th harmonic is way down, not relevant any more.


This scope is really marvelous, especially at this price point. No competition. But you must understand aliasing and leakage. Know what you're doing.
Oh, and if you are not sure about aliasing, just use only one channel. With 1 GSa/s aliasing is probably not a problem. And switching between 1 GSa/s en 250 MSa/s will give you an indication if aliasing is an issue. If the waveform changes drastically, it is! (at 250 MSa/s).




« Last Edit: October 19, 2014, 09:08:34 pm by pa3bca »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #528 on: October 19, 2014, 11:38:05 pm »
The resistor jumper configuration for "Hardware Version" is different on DS1054Z compared to DS1104Z.

Well spotted. The one of the right is certainly set to 1 instead of 0.
I'd try it on my mine, but it's only a loaner, so I don't think it's appropriate to do so.
Can anyone with a 1054Z change the jumper and see what happens?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #529 on: October 19, 2014, 11:41:59 pm »
That number does not necessarily mean anything: many months have gone by since the DS1104Z launched so it is highly probable that Rigol has tweaked the PCB or BoM since then and DS1104Z manufactured more recently might be revision 01 as well.

Yes, you could be right, this could just be the revision of the board, which is shown in the firmware. So they might be using the jumpers to hard set this version. Jumpers cost practically nothing to install after all. My board is Rev 1.01
 

Offline Mark_O

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #530 on: October 20, 2014, 06:14:59 am »
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
« Last Edit: October 20, 2014, 06:27:17 am by Mark_O »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #531 on: October 21, 2014, 12:42:00 am »
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #532 on: October 21, 2014, 01:41:29 am »
Good summary! Yes, keeps everybody busy!
I will come with the big announcement at the right time :)


And when you do, I expect you'll really start asking questions in earnest!  ;)  And keep us even busier.

One good outcome of your deferring a decision was the arrival of the MSO2000 (not available when you started your quest for the Holy Grail), which pretty nicely balances out the 2-channel loss from the 1000Z to the 2000.  For someone who (may) want to do embedded systems work at some point, it's a very nice combination.

And if you wait long enough, Siglent may improve the firmware implementation on the SDS2000 to the point where you could get 4 analog channels AND 8 digital channels... for a price in the same ballpark as the MSO2000.  Though the hackability of the Rigols does give them a decided advantage.

EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:
LOL
Sorry I have no real update re Siglent SDS2000 expected firmware version apart from it is due this month, then the bell will ring for the next bout.  :-DD
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline rolycatTopic starter

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #533 on: October 21, 2014, 01:58:46 am »
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one, and there is an English manual on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
 

Offline dentaku

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #534 on: October 21, 2014, 02:37:29 am »
OK, I'm going to ask a dumb question...
Is a DS1054Z exactly the same as a DS1074Z and DS1104Z on the inside?
Once it's hacked you can unlock exactly the same features and it gives you the same performance?
 

Offline coppice

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #535 on: October 21, 2014, 03:09:29 am »
Is the DS1000U series something Rigol only sell in China? I don't see reference to these models on other country's web sites.
Like the DG1022U variant of Rigol's DG1022 function generator it seems to be primarily intended for domestic markets, although it (there appears to be only one model, the DS1072U) is available in Western countries from various Chinese shippers, such as this one, and there is an English manual on Rigol's US website.

It's hard to imagine why anyone would want one, though - it only has half the sample rate and half the memory of the now rather obsolete DS1000E series scopes, and costs about the same.
The DS1102U is 100MHz, 1Gs/s, 16k samples of storage and its list price is CNY1580 (US$257). It looks like the ADC is a lower spec (or maybe there's a lower timing control spec) than the E series, as its repeat capture effective sampling rate is 10Gs/s, while the E series claims 25Gs/s. Most things about the U series seem essentially the same as the E series. I suspect, from some promotional stuff they are doing, that this might be their entry model going forward.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 03:37:52 am by coppice »
 

Offline thisguy81

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #536 on: October 21, 2014, 07:44:21 am »
Hi guys,
So everyone is praising this new rigol, saying its a great value for 399.
Thats great but where do you get ?
where can i buy it, for that price, from a seller with international shipping ?
It will be very helpful if one will write where he got it from, and how much was the shipping.
Tried ebay but only one seller from italy for 530$ and no international shipping. than there is the H.K seller for the 1074 but thats 579+100 for shipping.
Any help will be appriciated ????
"I'm not crazy, I'm just smarter than you..."
 

Offline aXion

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #537 on: October 21, 2014, 08:07:22 am »
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com, The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.
 

Offline Nemesis

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #538 on: October 21, 2014, 08:59:03 am »
Hi,

Going over this thread, I think this scope would be a good starting point for me.
Could someone please pm me the coupon code for Tequipment?

Thanks,
 

Offline JJalling

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #539 on: October 21, 2014, 09:50:59 am »
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz , EEVblog user Drieg). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

Edit: Link fix
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 06:49:22 pm by JJalling »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #540 on: October 21, 2014, 11:06:58 am »
Thats great but where do you get ?

You could try www.batronix.com, The shipping costs to Israel would be €54.45 without VAT.

I got mine from Batronix.

 

Offline aXion

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #541 on: October 21, 2014, 11:35:03 am »
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
 

Offline thisguy81

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #542 on: October 21, 2014, 11:42:38 am »
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

BR Jonas
[/quote]
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock
"I'm not crazy, I'm just smarter than you..."
 

Offline deephaven

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #543 on: October 21, 2014, 11:54:06 am »
Thats great but where do you get ?

Hi,

I bought mine from Silcon Electroincs (www.silicon.cz). 294€ ex. VAT with free shipping within EU.
Excellent service, and very fast shipping - highly recommended.

BR Jonas

The link is broken..

Yes i know about them but like you said they are out of stock

Typo, it's http://www.silcon.cz/
 

Offline marmad

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #544 on: October 21, 2014, 02:04:25 pm »
EDIT:  besides, when I prepared that retrospective, I thought we needed a break from the Hess/Marmad bout, that was in the 14th round.   :box:

Most boring bout ever  ;D

Two guys typing furiously:
"That is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"Uhh... no it isn't."
"Ok, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No proof of that."
"Well, THAT is caused by non-linearity and sampling jitter in Rigol's digitizer."
"No, that's something else."
....
....
Rinse and repeat.  :D
 

Offline iRad

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #545 on: October 21, 2014, 02:28:53 pm »
Most boring bout ever   :rant:

Two guys typing furiously:
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

Off hand I can't think of another scope that even comes close in bang-per-buck for the same price?
...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.
 

Offline Bert Camper

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #546 on: October 21, 2014, 02:31:09 pm »
I also ordered the DS1054Z from Batronix a week ago. Unfortunately they were not in stock so I will have to wait at least another three weeks (according to their website). Bummer
You should have tried arBenelux, they had one in stock last week.
 

Offline thisguy81

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #547 on: October 21, 2014, 02:39:11 pm »
They just got back to me from silicon electronics: 486.65$ + 65 EURO for shipping, and can only insure up to 120 EUR....  :(

Any other idea's ?
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Offline marmad

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Re: New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope
« Reply #549 on: October 21, 2014, 02:51:06 pm »
At least one of the two (of the worst offenders) finally realizes it...

Oh, I've realized it all along. The question is: would it better to just not respond when someone makes unsupported allegations about problems the DSO has?

Quote
Unfortunately, this thread has already been thoroughly hosed, making it difficult for the typical person looking to buy one of these scopes to navigate through the muck.  :palm:

Hosed? As much as I realize there has been some off-topic (or close to off-topic) stuff, there has also been a serious discussion about the capabilities/limitations of the DSO. If you're just interested in a love-fest discussing what a fabulous buy it is, and where you can find it - an EE blog is probably not the place to look.  ;D

Quote
Too bad we can't roll the clock back on this one to message #37 and start over, where Dave says the following.

...people don't feel comfortable with this mathematical concept though.

As much as I enjoy Dave's posts, it's already been shown that the DS1000Z is susceptible to aliasing due to the filter roll-off when expecting to get 100MHz with 3/4 channels @ 250MSa/s (although no one has yet tested and posted a chart of the 50MHz roll-off).
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 03:14:34 pm by marmad »
 


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