New Rigol DS1054Z oscilloscope

[Micael]

Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?

[DanielS]

The question is, are there any special considerations with this new digital scope that would make things any different from the old analog scope when making floating measurements like this?  (Obligatory note: I work with dangerous equipment that has dangerous voltages and this practice is not recommended.  You're supposed to buy an isolated/insulated scope and/or an isolated probe.  Don't try this at home or at work.  I already know this.)

If you need to make differential measurements on medium/high-voltage circuits on a semi-regular basis, you really should follow your own advice and get a proper high-voltage differential probe.

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

[Wyatt Storch]

Thanks for your replies.  I'd like that nice high voltage differential probe but I can't justify it.  I might need to take a measurement like I described maybe once every three years or so (I learned how to troubleshoot 99% of the problems without looking at that waveform).

It seems all the considerations for doing this are the same whether the scope is digital or analog....

Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.    Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!

[David Hess]

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

[Mathieu]

Got mine from Batronix today, best spot on the desk assigned (:
But that fan really is too audible for me, must find replacement for that ...

Hi!
I placed in my DS1000z the GELID Silent 5 fan. (gelidsolutions.com)
Its working very quiet!

Mathieu

I'm assuming doing this broke the warranty?

Better broken the warranty in stead of the sound barrier!

[pa3bca]

Just a comment about the bandwidth / aliasing discussion ... whenever you're working with power inverters, choppers, etc., about the only place you ever see anything that resembles a sine wave is at the output, and that's when everything is working right.    Often what needs to be caught is the amplitude of a steep spike, as across an SCR in a commutating circuit, and often when there are problems to troubleshoot, transients are involved that can destroy devices.  There's no way I can be sure there won't be high frequency components on a waveform, generally.  That's one of the reasons why I appreciated that discussion.  That said, we generally get by on mediocre equipment, helped by a knowledge of its limitations.  So thanks!

I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....

[Wyatt Storch]

I am no expert on power converters, but I understand that they mostly operate in the tens of Kilohertz range to a few 100's Kilohertz. Only very high-end stuff into a few Megahertz. I know that internally rise-times can and will be very short and that they generate all kinds of nasty harmonics into the tens of Megahertz (after all I can hear those nasty signals on my HF transceivers) but I think you can safely assume that frequency components > 100 MHz in these devices are way lower than the signals you are analyzing, so if these alias back the amplitude is probably way below the threshold of what is visible (the ADC is only 8 bits). And if in doubt use only one channel and Fnyquist moves up to 500 MHz. If you see no change in the signal then aliasing is no problem.
And if you see ristimes of individual pulse in the order of 3.5 ns (for a 100 MHz scope this as abt the minimum rise time you can see) than you know you have to be careful how to interpret these....

All your assumptions are true about the power converters.  I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.

[Wyatt Storch]

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.

[David Hess]

Depending on how much accuracy and bandwidth you require, you might be able to build your own for a fraction of the cost: a basic non-isolated probe is simply a pair of 100:1 attenuators feeding a differential amplifier's inputs. The parts cost including PCB would likely be under $40. I am planning to build a handful of those for myself once I get my 1054Z since I expect to poke around 1-5kV stuff fairly regularly and only need about 5MHz of bandwidth.

Jim Williams designed and built a more demanding differential probe which is documented started at page 72 of Linear Technology application note 65.  The custom differential input amplifier he designed fits within your $40 budget but would need some changes for DC operation.

"Measuring voltage of floating lamp circuits requires a nearly heroic effort."

I'll say it does!  Good thing the things I play with are steam-powered by comparison.

There are a number of gems in that application note:

• Note 20: Don’t say we didn’t warn you! (Re: high voltage probe break down)
• Note 3: That’s twice we’ve warned you nicely. (Re: high voltage probe break down)
• Note 5: A more obvious and less complex way to control FET mismatch induced offset would utilize a matched dual monolithic FET. Readers are invited to speculate on why this approach has unacceptable high frequency error.

[pa3bca]

I play with everything from servo and AC motor drives, to phase-shift SCR controllers to SCR type inverters of various designs to IGBT type inverters, generally very high power from 20 KW up to 1 MW with frequencies up to 100 KHz or so.  Oh, and some tube type oscillators up to 150 KW, 450 KHz (you don't measure anything directly in that circuit if you know what's good for you).  My new toy will be a very nice upgrade for me.  Thanks.

Hmm it looks like aliasing should be way down on your list of worries  If you must play with your life at least use tools that provide a minimum amount of safety.
When I was abt 15 yo I built quite a few amplifiers and (FM) transmitters with tubes. But I got zapped so many times that I decided this was not for me (too sloppy / careless I suppose). Now if I blow something up I want to be sure it is not me 

[hak8orr]

So I decided to get this scope based on various YT reviews, recommendations in my thread (I am the looking-for-a-sub-$475-dso-but-lost-in-what-to-choose dude), and what I've read in this thread (yes, I've read all of it! Most of it which extremely educational too).

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.

[edavid]

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope, but it does for a few others (siglent for example). Anyone know if the student discount applies only for certain brands/scopes? From what I understand 14 were unsold from their batch they are getting today or tomorrow with the next batch being a few weeks from now, so I am eager to order this ASAP.

If you look at their education site techedu.com (http://www.techedu.com/Rigol/Digital-Oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS1054Z-Bandwidth-50-Mhz) they don't seem to be offering a student discount on this model.  However, you could place the order with the EEVblog discount and then chat with them Monday to see if they will give you an additional student discount.  It never hurts to ask.

If you have a Discover card, be sure to register for the current 5% cashback promotion and use that to buy the scope.

[dave3533]

I am going to buy from tequipment and take advantage of the eevblog discount but also I've heard of them having a student discount, and luckily I am still a student. Using my .edu email doesn't seem to change anything for this scope

Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.

[hak8orr]

Per my discussions with TEquipment support, the EEVBLOG discount > student discount, mainly due to the free shipping.

Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?

[nanofrog]

Forgive me if this is a foolish question, but how can I actually apply the code? I only see the ability to request a quote, so I assume I would get a price with the discount by monday which would likely mean I get put into the next batch. Is there any way for that code to be applied without waiting till Monday? If not, what are y'all thoughts on ordering now and then calling them on monday asking if they can apply the discount after purchase?

When you get to the payment section, there's a spot where you can enter codes (enter in the shipping and billing addresses, hit continue in green, and it's on the next page).

Sent a PM regarding codes, so check your messages (they've requested we not post their discount codes).

[hak8orr]

Thanks nanofrog and everyone else for all your help! You all are a really awesome and helpful bunch. 

So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375. Based on PM's, I decided to go against the student discount of 5% since it's less beneficial than the eevblog discount. Hopefully I am in the current batch and won't have to wait like 3 weeks for teq to get their next shipment. 

[David Hess]

So I just ordered today and had 0$ tax, 0$ shipping, the AC high voltage sensor, and of course the scope, for $375.

AC high voltage sensor?

[miguelvp]

I think he means the voltage detector that they include for free.
http://www.tequipment.net/SantronicsAC-EZ.html

[hochopeper]

I have one on order from Emona here in Australia, has anyone else? If so have you received it? It should be close.

Ordered in September, told 4 weeks, rang when I didn't hear anything, told another 4 weeks which means around the end of november. Not getting my hopes up that it will be here by then.

Odd. I ordered 1 Oct, was told mid October that Emona were expecting stock around 10th Nov. I nagged them this morning and got an email back saying that stock arrived and they were going to post mine within 24hours.  A friend ordered a week or so before me and his arrived from Emona late last week.


Happy days!

[hak8orr]

For those of you who are looking for where to buy your scope, Teq said

we have another 95 units arriving in the next week or so therefore your order should be included with that batch of shipments to go out.

so there ya go.

[rolycat]

For those who don't follow Dave's tweets, he is working on a DS1054Z review

[aargee]

Mine's waiting for me to pick it up from Emona tomorrow morning!

Poor old BWD is going to have company on the shelf.   

[ataradov]

Got mine today from Tequipment. The scope is awesome.

[Muttley Snickers]

Unfortunately, I am still yet to order one and am trying desperately to justify the purchase, the outlay is no issue and I can claim it as a  business asset. I just have way too many gadget's and most of which are hardly ever used.

My go to scope is still a Tek TDS-1002 but it's all I've ever needed, really the only justification I have is the knowledge that may be gained in using a current day scope with a few new features.

My TEK has an error log which also show's boot up's was 67 now is 4 after I accessed the service menu recently, do the Rigols a have similar thing, couldn't see it in the manual.

Anyway,
I do have one more question someone may know this off hand, can the supplied firmware be backed up, exported or even downloaded should a person wish to restore the units original configuration. Just in case there was an issue during the warranty period ( 3 years ). Could the " enhancement of options " be reversed.

Many Thanks

Muttley

[avvidclif]

I just got an e-mail from TEquipment, my 1054z is shipping today instead of next week. WoooHooo