new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004

[RGB255_0_0]

Dave's seemed distant for a while. Very inactive relative to his normal self. Sounds like he was busy with a hiccup of his probe and maybe YouTube channel.

[SeanB]

One Dave, 2 children, one Dave2 to mentor and generally juggling, so yes likely as busy as a bee for sure.  Don't mind that at all, after all it is his own priorities he works on, and they generally do coincide with those of a lot of people here as well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did.

I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

[nctnico]

I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did.

I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'm looking forward to Mike's next reviews. Hopefully that test of a 20Hz 400uV sine on high res mode to see if it can do what the HMO1212 did.

I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

No attenuator at hand? I create low level signals using an attenuator. The noise gets attenuated as well.

Yes but only if it's shielded

[agdr]

I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.    I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.     The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.

[TheSteve]

20Hz @ 400 uV tortures a Keysight DSOX3000 series - in high res mode it will display it, trigger is hit/miss and measurements such as the frequency counter won't work. Of course the 1mV per division is zoomed and it is 8 bit. I used a 33250A with a 30dB attenuator to generate the signal.

[nctnico]

In most (if not all) audio chips the volume slider works in the analog domain in order not to loose bits. Ofcourse at low volumes the least significant bits will be swamped by noise. Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

[ebastler]

Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?

[nctnico]

Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.
I forget -- which scope do you use as your "daily driver"?

Currently a GDS2204E but that bottoms out at 650uVpp (233uV RMS).

[EEVblog]

I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

[EEVblog]

Dave still hasn't reviewed scopes he does have 

Reviewing scopes properly takes several days solid work at least. I rarely get that sort of break, or can find time to commit to that at the moment.
And yes I have a wife and two kids (one school age, & one of which I take care of 1 full work day a week), a business to run, a new logistics employee to train, two new products in progress, and it's not like I can do lab stuff or shoot video at home when the wife is sleeping. Not to mention other videos I want to do.

[EEVblog]

Still what is special about displaying a 400uV (RMS I assume?) 20Hz signal? I don't think there are DSOs out there which can't do that. I just tried my daily driver and it will trigger at even lower signal levels.

According to the screenshot in post 450, where ci11 put out the challenge originally, it should be 400uV p-p. It seems that limiting the bandwidth (to 20 MHz, I assume) is allowed.

If you are comparing noise on scopes then the only way to compare apples to apples is by using the 20MHz BW limit.
Indeed, it's a defacto industry standard bandwidth for PSU noise and other noise measurements.
That might make an interesting video on it's own.

[snoopy]

I have two units, one to giveaway!

BTW, I'm told that the launch deal on this scope is limited to 300 scopes in each market segment (US, Asia, Europe), so you'd better get in quick before the universities scoop them up.

Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?

[ci11]

I don't have an easy way to generate a known-clean signal that low - Rigol DG4062 will do 1mv RMS but no idea how much noise may already be on it.

If you have a 24 bit sound card in a PC the (free) ARTA audio testing software will do the job:

http://www.artalabs.hr/

You will loose bits as the PC volume slider is decreased, but still will probably be above the 16 bits of the high-res scope mode.  If it won't go that low before cutoff with the PC slider a resistive divider would be OK, just stay above 5K or so total to keep from loading whatever the sound card is using for an output chip.  I know that is a lot of set-up stuff though and probably not on the schedule any time soon.    I'll do the test when I eventually get my RTB2004's, in May now they say.   I have a ultra-low THD 1KHz audio oscillator, the oscillator in a Keithley 2015, and the oscillator in a QuantAsylum QA401 audio analyzer (which is essentially a 24 bit sound card in a box).

BTW, in case folks don't remember from previous posts, this is ci11's request from back in post 450.  He and I are audio guys, so the ability of that HMO1212 in high res mode to trigger and display the 20Hz 400uV waveform is pretty good stuff.     The theory here is that the RTB 2004 should be able to do at least as well, probably better, since it seems to have HAMEG DNA, lol.

Rich could easily do the test too, if he should happen to have access to a R&S UPV.  It can generate 20Hz at -100dB THD+N.

Thanks for the BTT, agdr!

The plot in Post 450 showed a 20Hz 200µVrms signal being triggered by a HMO1212. The scope was set at 1mV/DIV with a 50ms TB, in Hi-Res mode, AC coupling and yes, Dave, the 20MHz BWL is on as can be seen on the right side of the screen. The test was kindly done by an HMO1212 owner who is still very happy with his purchase. R&S has a ton of analog magic and if they sprinkled some of that goodness in the RTB, it would not only make a nice quiet scope, but one of the few that makes it great for audio.

As agdr says, Rich can do the test easily if he has access to a UPV with the Low Distortion Generator B1 Option installed. Or he can send me a RTB and I would gladly test it...with the 20Hz 200µVrms or even lower level signals. 200µVrms is just a shade over -74dBV which is quite relevant in audio. Attached is a FFT of a 20Hz 500µVrms signal generated from the UPV, such a signal is not going to get lost in the noise floor any time soon with harmonics at and below -147dBV.

[EEVblog]

Do they have the special deal going on in Australia  ?

Yes, talk to them.

[AR]

Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

[EEVblog]

Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

No, you always pay the "Australia tax" of course.

[AR]

Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

[TheSteve]

Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

I doubt Dave speaks for them - why not talk to them as he suggested?

[AR]

Trust me there is method in approach, and let Dave speak for himself.

[maginnovision]

Dave,

Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.

Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Also by Australia tax I don't think he meant actual tax. Just like England, you can't use a 1:1 exchange rate and figure out what something costs there as compared to America. After all, America is the home of the "I want it" free.

[EEVblog]

Dave,
Are you saying that the Australian price price for the RTB2004 COM4 is US$2080 = AUS$2727.71 *1.1 = $3000.48 GST inclusive (at exchange rate US0.7624 = AUS$1), when you talk to them ?.
Just to spell it out again to buy the scope here  it will cost you "AUS $3000.48 + delivery charges"

Why do I have to answer the same question twice?
US price is almost never indicative of the price you pay in Australia for something, not just this scope, but almost every product you can think of.
Australian companies have to pay import duty, local custom and port handling fees etc, and you'll cop GST on top as well.
Try importing something into Oz to resell and you'll find out.

[EEVblog]

FYI:
These are the fees I pay to get my multimeters into the country:




And people expect Oz seller to sell at the same price as other countries? 

[usagi]

what's the better value for money, a lol'd DS1054Z, or an RTB2004?