Author Topic: new killer scope in town - a true game changer from R&S - RTB2002 & RTB2004  (Read 809377 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re.dave's first bug - if you change the acquisition mode, you sometimes see some major glitches in the left-hand area - it looks like it's reading from the wrong memory areas.
Interestingly if you try to capture the glitch by stopping acquisition, it overwrites the glitch before stopping, so I think just a memory offset error somewhare
 
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Offline darkstar49

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I guess a 'modded' Tek MDO3014 is also a nice candidate, a bit more expensive, but it goes to 500Mhz, and has quite a bunch of options...
 
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Offline EEVblog

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A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

 
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Offline EEVblog

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It does often seem to do more apparently intialising- type stuff when changing apparently minor things, like it's reinitialising everything on any change that might affect something rather than only changing what's needed - I think maybe this makes some things fell a little more clunky than they should.

That was my impression as well.
 

Offline Octane

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Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:25:23 pm by Octane »
W4MFT
 

Offline MrW0lf

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A few more minutes playing uncovered this problem:

Shocking is correct word for this issue. For very short moment was thinking getting one but with this... just imagine debugging something mechanical with it - robot or motor  :palm: When I did my motor stuff sometimes even the screws on table legs did unscrew due to high pitch vibration... and you do need mesure very low voltages on current shunts...  Now imagine some smug well paid R&S Q&A bloke driving his Porsche  :-+ World is broken  :-BROKE Who will keep systems running when current generation will be all visiting Tesla in electric heaven?

 

Offline Zbig

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Now all the companies will be afraid to send Dave any new scope for review fearing he'll go full Harry Potter on its ass ;)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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How many people actually tap on a touchscren?
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.
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Offline Zbig

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Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D
 

Offline EEVblog

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I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?

I can picture in labs everywhere - "No one move, I'm trying to trigger!"

Maybe they should provide a capacitive touch feather with each unit?
 

Offline EEVblog

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Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
 

Offline EEVblog

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How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

Quote
All scopes to it to some extent.
On my unit I also see ch1 being more sensitive, but no sensible-strength tap on the screen shows it at all.

The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Also, I must admit I find it a bit amusing how Dave seems genuinely disappointed at first when Siglent doesn't seem to exhibit any tapping problems while the Rigol is "good old" even the second before showing the ridiculous scale of effect at the slightest of touches ;D

Only "good old" because every man and his dog has one.
..and hasn't complained about the issue, so clearly not a big deal.
Now on a portable scope it would be another matter, as it might be put on a vibrating surface.
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Offline Zbig

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Note to self: do not listen to drum'n'bass while probing stuff.
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.
Tapping BNCs with a pen, near Ch1 is pretty sensitive, others produce disturbance mostly on ch1, with ch4 being a little more sensitive

But I get absolutely nothing on the touchscreen even tapping hard with fingernails ( at 1mv/div) . It does have an anti-reflection screen-protector on, which may act as a lowpass filter and damp resopnance in the glass.
Really don't see it being a problem.
 
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Offline pmcouto

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EEVblog #983 – Dave plays Whack-a-Scope!  :-DD
 

Offline Zbig

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How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
 

Offline PA0PBZ

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The problem with the R&S is that a big feature is the touch screen, and you can see at the end of the video how just tapping it causes a large scale signal impulse.  And I was only at 2mV per division, not 1mV.

Actually, CH1 was on 1mV, the rest on 2mV (at the end of the video)
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline TK

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Maybe the RTB having 10-bit ADC makes it more "sensitive" than the 8-bit scopes?
 

Offline Avacee

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Now have a picture of people all across the world currently whacking their scopes, DMMS, PSU's, SMU's ....

Looking forward to future teardowns looking at whack-a-scope attenuation and for cushion mounted mainboards and connectors :)

Does whack-a-scope also cause peaks on any signal generator output? ... or DMMs and Power Supplies?
That could cause fun on SMU tests if they suffer too :p
 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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How many people actually tap on a touchscren?

All the time.

I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

This. Dave seems to inadvertently trigger some action on any touchscreen device in pretty much every episode featuring one ("Bloody touchscreens!") ;) I, on the other hand, hate fingerprints on non-touch screens and I'm sure I have stuff I used for years without ever putting my greasy fingers to its LCD. We had one colleague at work who was going absolutely ballistic when you touched his PC's screen.
I have it on a shelf above the bench, so the natural angle is to touch it with the pad of the finger - maybe if it's lower down it's prone to getting a harder touch and occasional fingernail
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Offline madires

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So we have to consider any scope with MLCCs in the channel frontend being cheap? >:D The manufactures should choose types which are less susceptible to microphonics at least.
 

Offline EEVblog

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I've never touched harder than is needed - maybe different people have different styles.

Of course they do.

Quote
It does seem to vary between units - maybe depends how tightly the screws near the front-end are tightened - I think mine had loctite on before i took it apart - have you had yours apart yet ?

No, not yet. Factory freash, 5 minutes of use.
And yes it will vary between units. Component variability alone.
There is obviously direct coupling between the various connection points in the assembly, and likely the offending CH1 cap(s) are in a higher mechanical resonate mode spot on the board compared to the other channels. I used to work on this stuff all the time in my seismic days, physical location on PCB and location to rigid mounting posts makes a hell of the difference. Hit a resonance mode sweet spot and it sings like a bird.

Quote
Mine shows significant disturbance on ch1, and only slight on ch4 when tapping the top case with fingers.

Being similar to mine that indicates it's more mechanical mode coupling and PCB location resonance related than component differences.

Quote
Really don't see it being a problem.

It was blindly obvious to me in the first few minutes of using it, so I'd say it's a problem.
Tapping the BNC's, ok, every scope has a direct coupling at that point, fair enough.
Whacking the top of the unit, ok, don't do that, fair enough.
But a much touted touch screen being able to generate many division level impulses when tapped is unacceptable, even if some units aren't as susceptible.
 
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Offline TK

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Thanks R&S for letting me spend >2k$ on a scope that's broken by design! Luckily it was only 2k$ and not 8k$. I was aware that early adopting will give me buggy firmware, but this is quite a substantial hardware issue. Let's see how annoying this will be when using it for real. R&S care to comment?
I don't think it is broken by design.  If you watch the whole video, all the scopes does the same.  You can avoid the full touchscreen interface and operate it remotely when you need to do really sensitive measurements.
 

Offline skench

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Well this is very disappointing!

On the 16th March I paid for and placed an order for a Rohde & Schwarz RTB2K-COM4 package with TEquipment.
This was before any message appeared on their web page stating "SHIPPING TO USA ADDRESSES ONLY!".

The order was accepted and the next day I spoke to lady from TEquipment who confirmed my address and payment.

A couple of days latter I had an email conversations with TEquipment about shipping dates and was assured that I would receive a unit. In fact it was stressed that I was likely to receive one with much sooner than the quoted 3rd May.

Then just now I received a email saying:

"Unfortunately due to our contractual obligations with R & S we are unable to export any of the items sold by them and we will have to cancel the order you placed with us."

TEquipment then refunded my money that they had kindly kept in their bank for me over the last 13 days.

This whole operation by Rohde & Schwarz to only offer this promotion to the USA and Canada really stinks.

Grrr.
 


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